how effective is the cataphract in terms of aoe?
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Do your numbers take into consideration the fact that both warworks and cimeroans can crit? I think at least a few others can as well. When vicky crits it is incredible. In the scrapper forums with field trials against pylons the damage she is being tracked as putting out is almost absurd and the cims do a fair bit more for the exact reason you noted.
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Originally Posted by Sleestak
Here is what I came up with from worst to first. The first number is the DPS for pet 1 the second is DPS for pet 2 and the last is average DPS for both pets.
Clockwork: 91/52/71.5 Storm Elementals: 100/53/76.5 Seers: 89/74/81.5 Rularuu: 121/45/83 Polar Lights: 123/54/88.5 Vanguard: 104/75/89.5 Longbow: 160/40/100 Robots: 142/66/104 Phantoms: 149/77/113 Arachnos: 132/96/114 Carnies: 100/139/119.5 Warworks: 222/26/124 IDF: 207/65/136 Rikti: 209/119/164 Nemesis: 255/88/171.5 Cimerorans: 349/161/255 One of the key reasons the Cimerorans came out on top is they just have more attacks. The 1st pet has 5 attacks and the second has 4. This is at least 1 more attack per pet than any other choice. This creates a fuller attack chain and less time the pet is just standing there. Comments/suggestions welcome. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I watched two of them in action. They have a number of hard-hitting AoEs, but seem to have a very slow attack rate (Not nearly as nice an attack chain as the vanguard HVAS for instance). But from one outing I thought they were doing better than the clocks. Would like to see some hard numbers though as this is pure observation on my part from only one event.
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
how effective is the cataphract in terms of aoe?
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"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I'm gonna go craft it nao
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
I watched two of them in action. They have a number of hard-hitting AoEs, but seem to have a very slow attack rate (Not nearly as nice an attack chain as the vanguard HVAS for instance). But from one outing I thought they were doing better than the clocks. Would like to see some hard numbers though as this is pure observation on my part from only one event.
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I minor quibble - but if you're really looking to characterize the damage output of each "style" of Lore pet, shouldn't you *sum* the DPS of the two pets, not average them? After all, they're both attacking at the same time...
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice!
)Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)
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wow that is a good point
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Originally Posted by Coulomb2
I minor quibble - but if you're really looking to characterize the damage output of each "style" of Lore pet, shouldn't you *sum* the DPS of the two pets, not average them? After all, they're both attacking at the same time...
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Yes sum vs average that is a great point and this is why you don't do spreadsheets in the wee hours of the morning. At any rate here are the numbers with the total as DPS instead of the average in the last number. Note it doesn't really change the ranking but it does give you a better idea of what the overall DPS looks like. Also these numbers absolutely do not take into account criticals. These are only based on the numbers visable by right clicking on each power in game.
P1/P2/Sum of both pets
Clockwork: 91/52/143
Storm Elementals: 100/53/153
Seers: 89/74/163
Rularuu: 121/45/166
Polar Lights: 123/54/177
Vanguard: 104/75/179
Longbow: 160/40/200
Robots: 142/66/208
Phantoms: 149/77/226
Arachnos: 132/96/228
Carnies: 100/139/239
Warworks: 222/26/248
IDF: 207/65/272
Rikti: 209/119/328
Nemesis: 255/88/343
Cimerorans: 349/161/510
Do these numbers take into account the lore power or whatever buff all t4 pets get? (I'm talking of the 25% damage buff)
I find myself paralyzed and unable to choose Lore pets now.
More testing please. 
I don't want to be a party pooper, but I'd like to mention that my own testing gave me somewhat different results than that list. Pet AI, difference between melee and ranged, added effects on powers can change the numbers around a fair bit.
That said, Cimerorans definitely ranked top for ST DPS in my testing as well, especially in a "no tohit buffs for the player" situation as their own defense debuffs let them land hits easier than most other pets.
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Please post it if you don't mind, the lack of real in game info on Lore pets is pretty frustrating - we could use all the data we have.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I don't want to be a party pooper, but I'd like to mention that my own testing gave me somewhat different results than that list. Pet AI, difference between melee and ranged, added effects on powers can change the numbers around a fair bit.
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In beta I tested T4 Core: Cims vs. Arachnos vs. Warworks on my Fire/Rad corr, and all of their times were withing a few seconds of each other.
This was after the Cims & Arachnos had their damage reduced.
So I'm not sure I believe cims will always or actually do put out 255 DPS, but I don't have very much to go off of and could be wrong.
My testing was so limited in scope (1 run for most pets) that I'm not comfortable posting any numbers, but for cimerorans specifically, using a SS/fire brute, out of three runs I got
+285 DPS (no PVP -res proc, no Interface, Tactics off)
+260 DPS (no PVP -res proc, no Interface, Tactics off, Lieutenant dies near the end)
+369 DPS (no PVP -res proc, Reactive Interface 75% dot 25% -res, Tactics on)
That said, that was before Cims got reduced... So ignore my previous comment, most likely. I glanced through the patch notes (too) quickly and didn't see a reduction to Cimerorans.
I tested the Cims personally.
Cimeroran Core Superior Ally
NO Reactive (I un-slotted it)
Managed to take out a Pylon, unassisted, in 4 mins 15 seconds for 278 DPS.
I stood at a distance with the Power Analyzer open, while taunting and let the Cims do their thing.
**Also posted in the Rikti Pylon Results thread.
I'll have some info on some of the other pets at some point.
EDIT: Just wanted to add.
No Assault, No Musculature.
This was done on the test server, I'm not sure if that's the same game build as on live.
I find myself near speechless at the concept of pets having higher DPS than my main did before the incarnate powers.
Be well, people of CoH.
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An absolute sure sign that the nerf bats a'comin.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I find myself near speechless at the concept of pets having higher DPS than my main did before the incarnate powers.
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Treating AOEs as "single target attacks" is going to radically skew your analysis, and it's not that difficult to figure out.| 1) It ignores the fact that some of these attacks are AOE or cone. I have no real way to predict the number of targets each would hit so my calculations treat them all as single target attacks. |
Figure out what the maximum number of foes hit is. As long as the cone isn't too narrow or the actual AOE effect too small, in any x8 or Trial, the pet is most likely to hit its maximum number of foes if they are available.
One of the weaknesses of the "City of Theory" people play on the boards is just this--they set a bunch of ground rules that skew the data, often in favor of one result over another. In this particular case, it favors the pets with high single-target damage over pets with enormous AOE sprays, yet the pet with the enormous AOE spray conceivably does more actual damage in a single attack than the pet with a Lore Pet Headsplitter equivalent.
Or, to state the case more clearly, let's take a Storm Elemental with Ball Lightning. Since Ball Lightning can hit 16 targets (and, with a 15' radius from target, its AOE is clearly big enough to hit all of them). Let's say it does x damage.
Let's take another pet that has a high-damage single-target attack instead. Let's say it does 5x damage.
In your analysis, the pet with the high-damage single-target attack is going to come out ahead. Way ahead.
But if you multiply the Storm Elemental's damage by 16 (max targets), it's suddenly doing 16x damage, more than three times the damage done by the high-damage single-target attack.
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@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
Treating AOEs as "single target attacks" is going to radically skew your analysis, and it's not that difficult to figure out.
Figure out what the maximum number of foes hit is. As long as the cone isn't too narrow or the actual AOE effect too small, in any x8 or Trial, the pet is most likely to hit its maximum number of foes if they are available. One of the weaknesses of the "City of Theory" people play on the boards is just this--they set a bunch of ground rules that skew the data, often in favor of one result over another. In this particular case, it favors the pets with high single-target damage over pets with enormous AOE sprays, yet the pet with the enormous AOE spray conceivably does more actual damage in a single attack than the pet with a Lore Pet Headsplitter equivalent. Or, to state the case more clearly, let's take a Storm Elemental with Ball Lightning. Since Ball Lightning can hit 16 targets (and, with a 15' radius from target, its AOE is clearly big enough to hit all of them). Let's say it does x damage. Let's take another pet that has a high-damage single-target attack instead. Let's say it does 5x damage. In your analysis, the pet with the high-damage single-target attack is going to come out ahead. Way ahead. But if you multiply the Storm Elemental's damage by 16 (max targets), it's suddenly doing 16x damage, more than three times the damage done by the high-damage single-target attack. |
The problem with what you are saying is that even players have a hard time making things like melee cones work on fast paced leagues/teams.
On top of this, Pets just use their AoEs whether it makes sense or not to.
Players know when to maximize their AoE attacks, but to a pet its just an attack and they use it when its ready.
So I agree that the reason the pets with AoEs are showing less DPS in the OP is because they have AoEs which do less per ST vs. an actual ST attack - but at the same time, your pets will not always maximize or even hit half the possible targets all of the time.
I think you'd be lucky for a pet to hit 75% of the max targets with a melee cone 1/3rd of the time.
Who's talking about "melee cones"? There are plenty of true AOE cones available. In trials, I routinely use Static Discharge and hit the maximum number of foes with it without doing anything to line it up.
Also, where do you get your "1/3 of the time" bit? Pulled out of the air?
Furthermore, finding the "breakpoint" between when the AOE pet drops below the "Headsplitter" pet is pretty easy. Trivial, in fact. In my scenario above, it's at 5 foes. If the AOE pet only hits 1-5 foes, the "Headsplitter" pet is ahead. If the AOE pet hits 6-16 foes, the AOE pet is ahead and, in some cases, wildly ahead.
Since Lore Pets use Mastermind controls, rather than the more dumb pet AI of Controller pets, it's trivial for the user to manipulate them to maximize that potential. Anyone who's played a Mastermind for any period of time should know how to do this.
To turn your own logic against you, Pets also don't know when it's better to use a low-damage attack versus a high-damage one. The "Headsplitter" pet of my above scenario may very well cycle it's extreme damage attack against a foe that's got 1 hp left. The extra damage doesn't "spill-over" onto other foes; rather, it's just wasted. Furthermore, this phenomenon is not something the user can control, unlike lining up AOE shots.
And, honestly, if you don't think those AOE attacks actually get used, you haven't actually been on a BAF. There are plenty of foes around all the time throughout the entire encounter. 9CUs and Victoria Mk VIs spam the board.
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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You didn't specify non-melee cones.|
Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
Who's talking about "melee cones"? There are plenty of true AOE cones available. In trials, I routinely use Static Discharge and hit the maximum number of foes with it without doing anything to line it up.
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You're also a player, I don't doubt you can hit a large number of foes with Static Discharge.
Now watch the Warworks ACU and let me know how many enemies that pet hits with wide, ranged, cone attack (not many).
Pet AI is unfortunately not able to make very good use of cones/AoEs, especially on teams where you as the pet owner have less control of mob positioning.
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Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
Also, where do you get your "1/3 of the time" bit? Pulled out of the air?
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Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
Furthermore, finding the "breakpoint" between when the AOE pet drops below the "Headsplitter" pet is pretty easy. Trivial, in fact. In my scenario above, it's at 5 foes. If the AOE pet only hits 1-5 foes, the "Headsplitter" pet is ahead. If the AOE pet hits 6-16 foes, the AOE pet is ahead and, in some cases, wildly ahead.
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Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
Since Lore Pets use Mastermind controls, rather than the more dumb pet AI of Controller pets, it's trivial for the user to manipulate them to maximize that potential. Anyone who's played a Mastermind for any period of time should know how to do this.
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Because those other ATs have other things to be doing than manipulating their pets just perfect to line up a pet cone that they are not even sure when they pet will be using it.
If you will put up a gameplay screenshot, or video, of your Lore pets hitting the maximum number of targets with their cone on a trial at least three times I will happily admit I am wrong though.
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Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
To turn your own logic against you, Pets also don't know when it's better to use a low-damage attack versus a high-damage one. The "Headsplitter" pet of my above scenario may very well cycle it's extreme damage attack against a foe that's got 1 hp left. The extra damage doesn't "spill-over" onto other foes; rather, it's just wasted. Furthermore, this phenomenon is not something the user can control, unlike lining up AOE shots.
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278 is the Cimeroran DPS under the best optimal conditions with no outside buffs/debuffs.
DPS is only really relevant against harder targets like EBs & AVs as other targets will be dead long before any DPS conversation really matters.
I've also never said their wasn't wasted spillover damage, so I don't see the purpose of the point you are making.
Against an AV, the spillover will be a non-issue.
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Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
And, honestly, if you don't think those AOE attacks actually get used, you haven't actually been on a BAF. There are plenty of foes around all the time throughout the entire encounter. 9CUs and Victoria Mk VIs spam the board.
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I'm not saying that the AoE attacks don't get used, I'm saying they don't get maximized most of the time.
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Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
the pet is most likely to hit its maximum number of foes if they are available.
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Warworks Core Superior Ally
Approx: 209 DPS
Arachnos Core Superior Ally
Approx: 177 DPS
More info here.
Rather than argue over this, how about a listing with min/max possible dps per each pet set.
In the case of single target pets, min and max should be identical.
In AE heavy pets, min would make the assumption that each attach hits only 1 target, and max would be 16 or whatever the cap is for cones/AE attacks.
I would then add an average column and sort by this column.
131430 Starfare: First Contact
178774 Tales of Croatoa: A Rose By Any Other Name ( 2009 MA Best In-Canon Arc ) ( 2009 Player Awards - Best Serious Arc )
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| 278 is the Cimeroran DPS under the best optimal conditions with no outside buffs/debuffs. |
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| I've also never said their wasn't wasted spillover damage, so I don't see the purpose of the point you are making. |
This is called "card stacking".
In order to come up with a reasonable result, you must assume "the best optimal conditions" (your language, not mine) in both cases, rather than come up with excuses as to why you won't allow for those conditions in one case while you allow them for the other.
Aside:
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| I've been on enough BAFs to know that those 9CUs and Victorias are not often bunched up nicely for a pet to perfectly line up a cone... |
40062: The World's Worst PUG
84008: Jenkins's Guide to Super-Villainy
230187: The Hero of Kings Row
No H8 - 08.04.10
@Circuit Boy - Moderator - Pride global chat channel
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Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
In other words, you're allowing for "the best optimal conditions" (single-target ArchVillain where there will be no damage lost due to overkill) for one set of Lore Pets in your analysis, and assuming the worst possible conditions for AOE pets. Making these kind of assumptions will inevitably skew your conclusions in favor of one result over another.
This is called "card stacking". In order to come up with a reasonable result, you must assume "the best optimal conditions" (your language, not mine) in both cases, rather than come up with excuses as to why you won't allow for those conditions in one case while you allow them for the other. |
Because ST DPS is a measurable and an easily applied mechanic, you can see how if you click anywhere in this entire sentence the results of utilizing the ST capabilities of pets in action.
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Originally Posted by Circuit_Boy
In my experience, they have been bunched up plenty, particularly if you are on the "Adds team" at their spawnpoint at the Helipad. But even if you aren't camping that spot, they tend to stay clustered close enough together for a Lore Pet to hit most, if not all, of an AOE target zone. Those 9CUs and Victorias don't spread out much unless the Trial has gone very badly.
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2) Why didn't "you" (general you, not you with whatever very specific case you might reply with) have your pets out during the escapee phase? 16 Man BAFs are very common on my server, maybe not yours. The pets are generally more valuable during the escapee phase then the AV fights. EDIT Although Cims, Warworks and Phantoms probably put out more DPS than the vast majority of people's characters. So I could see a case argued where they might be useful against the AVs.
3) Please show me pics/video of your pets repeatedly and consistently maximizing their cones.
All of this fun aside, I've never said the other pets had no value.
My goal, from the start, has been to add to the thread with actual numbers through testing - and I have specifically debunked the idea that Cimerorans do 500 DPS (which would be insane).
I'll have some more pets, their DPS and other comments "soon".
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Another point for that. Pets who can get criticals. Min is no criticals. Max is (and let's be realistic here, not optimistic) when you get a critical on the high damage attack.|
Originally Posted by Hercules
Rather than argue over this, how about a listing with min/max possible dps per each pet set.
In the case of single target pets, min and max should be identical. In AE heavy pets, min would make the assumption that each attach hits only 1 target, and max would be 16 or whatever the cap is for cones/AE attacks. I would then add an average column and sort by this column. |
I like threads like this. Someone needs to pull together a guide to what Lore pets are best for you. For instance, I had to scour through the incarnate tabs for a while before I found someone who buffed all of my MM's pets instead of just me, the person doing the least damage.
I wanted to get a handle on the new pets for my scrapper. Since I really don’t care about buff effects I just wanted to look at pure DPS. As such I only looked at Core Superior Ally pets. I’m not a math wiz but the easiest way for me to look at it was to look at each pets attacks by right clicking the power in the create window. I put down the recharge and the damage each attack did. I summed up the recharge time and divided by the number of attacks. Then took this number and used it to divide the sum of the damage for all attacks. This should give me damage per second if I haven’t completely failed math.
There are problems with this of course..
1) It ignores the fact that some of these attacks are AOE or cone. I have no real way to predict the number of targets each would hit so my calculations treat them all as single target attacks.
2) It ignores damage type. Smashing/Lethal is the most easily resisted damage in the game vs. say Psi. So a Psi attack should in reality be worth more. I have no way to weight this in my calculations.
Here is what I came up with from worst to first. The first number is the DPS for pet 1 the second is DPS for pet 2 and the last is average DPS for both pets.
Clockwork: 91/52/71.5
Storm Elementals: 100/53/76.5
Seers: 89/74/81.5
Rularuu: 121/45/83
Polar Lights: 123/54/88.5
Vanguard: 104/75/89.5
Longbow: 160/40/100
Robots: 142/66/104
Phantoms: 149/77/113
Arachnos: 132/96/114
Carnies: 100/139/119.5
Warworks: 222/26/124
IDF: 207/65/136
Rikti: 209/119/164
Nemesis: 255/88/171.5
Cimerorans: 349/161/255
One of the key reasons the Cimerorans came out on top is they just have more attacks. The 1st pet has 5 attacks and the second has 4. This is at least 1 more attack per pet than any other choice. This creates a fuller attack chain and less time the pet is just standing there.
Comments/suggestions welcome.