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Originally Posted by JayboH
You will quickly... VERY quickly find out that there are always people on this board that will attack you if you express anything negative towards this game.
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Always the same few people.
Just looking above I see people that will go on endlessly about the complexity of making a small change in software but they don't know the meaning of the word bug, as applied to software.
Trials that drive people to insanity, because they are a chokepoint in the game ? Man that's not a feature its a bug. Its a giant logical bug.
Elimination of vast swaths of content as a road to advancement ? Not a feature !!
Solo path gone from the game ? Not a feature !!
Incarnate reward system ? LOL
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If street sweeping to get to 50 is unfriendly its grumpy guy next door unfriendly.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There's an option to level to 50 with only street sweeping too, but it's not as friendly as using missions
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Trying not to use the trials to advance past 50 is Idi Amin or Papa Doc unfriendly
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That's ridiculously melodramatic. I'm fairly certain that if you don't have you favourite CoH toons spec'd to the max that you will be spared a night in a homeless shelter. This argument is a prime example of the logical fallacy known as reductio ad absurdum. This is the second time where you equate two things that are unequal: having a choice you don't like is not equivalent to having no choice.|
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
What choose? Lets put it this way. Why do you have jobs? Because you get paid with money. But you don't have to have jobs you "choose" to work? But if I don't work I can't afford food, or shelter, or playing this game. But you don't need money to survive, there are plenty of homeless shelters you can go to, money just help you afford the luxuries that you're use to.
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Simply put they're dangling a carrot in front of me and you're expecting me not to eat it. People go where the rewards are, it's that simple. Literally every level 50 in the game right now is entirely focused on the two trials because there are no other ways to get Threads. Put the threads in the normal game, make them harder to get like the shards are but just put them in the normal game. That's all I'm asking, I can't make this any simpler than that. |
There are no hard iTrials, only hard peo-... er... wait.
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Others have already pointed out that you don't have to run the trials to get threads, so I won't go there. You didn't care for my examples of rewards tied to specific content in game. Ok. In order to switch sides and advance your character through different contacts, you must run X number of Tip missions and then an Alignment mission. A reward that advances you character tied to very specific content. To get Vanguard Merits, you must run specific types of missions against specific foes. Those Vanguard Merits can get you some new powers such as the HVAS. Those help advance your character.|
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
Problem is definitely in game. Threads are forcing me and requiring me to do the trials. And your examples are invalid because the rewards you mentioned are not required to advance in the game. Being forced to do specific content to get threads would be like being forced to do specific content to earn XP all the way from 1 to 50. The only thing you're really forced to do at level one is the tutorial and that's only if you've never done it before after that you have the option to skip it. Now imagine that at level 1 you had all of two missions that gave XP and everything else in the game didn't give rewards at all. That's what incarnate trials are. That's what I am complaining about. Incarnate trials are in fact, by design, limiting the amount of content I have access to in order to get the rewards needed to advance in the game. |
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Shards I can already get anywhere in the game, I have a choice of what I want to do in order to obtain my shards. This is how Threads should work but they don't, they limit me to doing these trials weather or not I actually want to do them. |
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The game design has always been about CHOICE. The choice to make whatever character you want, the choice to make your own missions, the choice to do whatever content you choose to do without limiting how you advance in the game. This can even be seen with Incarnate Shards. You are not required to the WST to get shards, that is your own choice, Shards will drop regardless of whatever content you are doing. I can whatever I want and still be able to upgrade my Alpha Slot but ONLY my Alpha Slot. With Threads there is no choice. You can't use Shards to upgrade Interface, Destiny, Judgment, or Lore, you have to have Threads. You can't get threads unless you do Trials. This removes the choice from the player. If I could get Threads in other content or had any other choice to unlock and slot the other 4 slots I wouldn't be here complaining about the lack of content to do that. There is no choice because there is not other content to get Threads. I'm forced to do these two trials. Trials have no alternative. You have to do trials. There is no choice. There should be a choice because not everyone can do them and not everyone wants to do them, but everyone wants the rewards. I'm not asking for the rewards to be given easily, just that there be options to get them. I'm asking for a choice which currently does NOT exist. |
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If the problem were in chair and not in game that would mean there was already ways to get threads without doing repeated content. That would mean I only wanted Threads to drop faster without doing Trials. But they can't drop faster because they don't drop at all. Double of nothing is still nothing. |
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And YES, this does belong in this forum section. It doesn't belong in player help because I'm not asking for player help. It belongs here because it has everything to do with improving the quality of life in game play for everyone not just me. |
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Why do people even continue to argue with me on this stuff. This has being going on for 7 years and every time I suggested a change be made to the game I get these hate messages and every time the changes have been made to the game. Going Rouge is a perfect example, if you look back you'll see a topic where I had first suggested the idea nearly a year, possibly 2 years before it was ever announced and that topic is just full of people insulting me, complaining about "balance issues" and claiming it would never happen but here we are. Another of my ideas that's in the game right now is power customization. People claimed it was impossible to do but in fact it was just very complicated and took a long time to implement. Doppelgangers, again, I made that suggestion years before it made it into the game and got lots of negative feedback on the forums from it. I was right and they were all wrong. |
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How many times do I have to post a suggestion to improve the game play and have it be implemented before people stop trying to argue with me and actually hold a civilized conversation? Seriously like 90% of every suggestion I've ever made on the forums has actually been implemented in the game and 100% of the comments on every one of them has been negative. |
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Oh I might also add that the only suggestions I've made that haven't been implemented in game are Praetorian Arachnos with the exception of Ghost Widow. A way to completely get rid of the Arachnos Uniform on the VEATs. And color names on the costume editor for the color blind. |
And I'm done with you. You refuse to see that you have supported the very statements others have made.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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Sometimes negatives posts should be 'attacked'. Some posts are genuinely stupid. Just because person A makes a negative post and person B 'attacks', doesn't automatically mean person B is a 'fanboi'.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
You will quickly... VERY quickly find out that there are always people on this board that will attack you if you express anything negative towards this game.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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If that were true, you would think the thread would have been moved by now, what with a whole week in this forum.|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Yep. Definitely suggestions. And definitely belongs in the Suggestions and Ideas forums.
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I guess the forum mods aren't as good at their jobs as you are.
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This is true. I don't necessarily disagree with what the OP is saying, but I highly disagree with how he's saying it and what section of the forums he's posted it under.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Sometimes negatives posts should be 'attacked'. Some posts are genuinely stupid. Just because person A makes a negative post and person B 'attacks', doesn't automatically mean person B is a 'fanboi'.
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But just watch, in Issue 22 or 23 they'll probably roll out different, more solo-friendly ways to earn Judgement/Lore/Interface/Destiny, and the OP will take the credit saying it was his suggestion (which he for some reason believes doesn't belong in the suggestion forum) that made it all possible.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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If you want your posts to be more well-received, you should probably never say anything like that again. It's ludicrous.
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Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
Literally every level 50 in the game right now is entirely focused on the two trials because there are no other ways to get Threads.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
You asked for options, I pointed out one that exists currently in the game. You said you needed to do trials to get incarnate abilities, and I pointed out that wasnt so. I never said it was quick, but the option does exist.
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Originally Posted by Morgan Reed
If that were true, you would think the thread would have been moved by now, what with a whole week in this forum.
I guess the forum mods aren't as good at their jobs as you are. |
Shouldn't have done that, the threshold for action is whining, and the fanbois are experts.
Gotta love entitlement whines. Also gotta love the d-bags that gotta stir up trouble because they've been told their ideas suck also.
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I don't find this to be the case at all, especially since they added the Notice -> 40 Threads conversion. There's been a slightly smaller inclination for people to do annoying WSTs, but during the Kahn week, there were 3-15 runs forming in the channel pretty much every day (rough estimate based on the hours I was online epanded over the entire day).|
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
Now here's the issue. As more and more people have been realizing that they don't need shards anymore for their Alpha Slot there have been less and less people doing the weekly strike target.
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| Quite frankly the game is becoming repetitive and boring. When you start out the game there's a whole world of content that you can play and all of it will give you the same rewards that will help your character advance in the game... till you get to 50 then you have to do this very specific and limited content in order to advance in the game. |
As for the rest, despite what you say, you're not being forced. Your options are limited, and this is a downside of an incremental introduction, but you always have the option of not participating and doing other things you find more fun until such time as they do get to adding more variety.
Basically, the devs learned their lessons about over introducing content without incremental feedback when the game came out. They need player information and feedback to make better things as the system expands, or we end up with moribund content like Boomtown and the Shadow Shards.
The downside to that development plan is your choices as a player are limited until they have time to expand the system. If that's not to your liking you can wait patiently like people who enjoy the raids had to wait for years to get some things they like to do.
PS- without any insight into your team building methods, I find your anecdote about forming WST groups to be completely inaccurate and not at all similar to my experience or the experiences of many other people I know. I find your broad generalizations to be unreliable at best, misleading at worst.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
*looks around*
*looks at forum section heading*
*waves to Lemur Lad and Sharker Quint*
*wanders off to more familiar forum sections*
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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Dude I'll try to be nice, and not bash on you, but 7 years is a lot of time. Half the marriages don't last this long, and going to a more direct comparison, most consoles with their myriad of games don't last that long too.|
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
I've been on this game for 7 years. Most of my friends stopped playing years ago because they felt it was getting too repetitive and I keep trying to convince them to start playing again every time new content gets added but this time around. I don't think I could convince anyone that the game isn't repetitive when I don't even believe it myself.
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It's just a game, of course it will get boring to you. I always say my fav game of all time is Final Fantasy X, I played through it twice and cannot fathom gooing thru it again, so it's... 40-50 hours I got from I game I absolutely love. Think how much you got from CoH.
I'm on my second 'comeback', I have a 27-month vet badge, and after 1.5 years I had done everything, had my MOs badges, etc, so I quit the game. If you were able to enjoy it for seven years non stop, grats to you, that's more than most people, but I really don't think that after playing all his time you have the right to complain it got 'too' repetitive and boring. Especially since this is a MMO, all MMOs suffer from the same thing unless you do a major revamp (and then you may lose all the players like we did on PvP here and Star Wars did).
So chill out, I know it may be hard to find a quality MMO with fast paced action like this one (only reason I'm coming back btw) but it's not the end of the world. If you never took a break, take one, it may do wonders for you.
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I never said that not getting threads would put you in a homeless shelter. It was a comparison of two different topics not that one would lead to the other.|
Originally Posted by Iron_General
That's ridiculously melodramatic. I'm fairly certain that if you don't have you favourite CoH toons spec'd to the max that you will be spared a night in a homeless shelter. This argument is a prime example of the logical fallacy known as reductio ad absurdum. This is the second time where you equate two things that are unequal: having a choice you don't like is not equivalent to having no choice.
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You say that I don't need rewards to survive in the game.
Money is nothing more than rewards that you get in real life so I was using the real life example to explain how the game life operates not to say that the game will have any real effect on a person's real life.
Same thing with the example comparison of the value of in game Shards and Threads and the value of real life money. Of course you're not going to buy a house with a fictional form of currency but it's just a comparison of something real that you can more easily relate to, nothing more.
I don't know why I didn't think of this before but here's an in came comparison.
If a player doesn't like PvP there's nothing in the game to motivate someone to participate in PvP. It doesn't have any rewards what so ever. So PvP will only appeal to players who want to PvP not to players who are only there for the rewards. There are some explore badges and things that can only be earned in PvP zones but even that does not require you to actually participate. I just run in, grab the badges I need, and completely avoid running into other players so I don't have to PvP.
Repeat game play is a requirement in the game because you can't get the rewards you need without going threw content you've already played more times than I care to count. There's nothing preventing you from not repeating the same gameplay unless you don't care about the rewards they offer but sense the rewards is how you advance in the game it's kinda hard not to care about it. If you don't care about advancing in the game why are you playing the game in the first place?
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So you are finally admitting that the problem you are having with the game is you, just like people have been saying all along? |
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
I don't know why I didn't think of this before but here's an in came comparison.
If a player doesn't like PvP there's nothing in the game to motivate someone to participate in PvP. It doesn't have any rewards what so ever. So PvP will only appeal to players who want to PvP not to players who are only there for the rewards. There are some explore badges and things that can only be earned in PvP zones but even that does not require you to actually participate. I just run in, grab the badges I need, and completely avoid running into other players so I don't have to PvP. Repeat game play is a requirement in the game because you can't get the rewards you need without going threw content you've already played more times than I care to count. There's nothing preventing you from not repeating the same gameplay unless you don't care about the rewards they offer but sense the rewards is how you advance in the game it's kinda hard not to care about it. If you don't care about advancing in the game why are you playing the game in the first place? |
You're not MEANT to spam the trials. You're meant to play the content the way you did before, and look into the Trials as pleases you sand stop when bored. It's like complaining that your game console is boring because it only comes with one game, when you're refusing to play the thousands of others in your collection.
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Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
I've been worried about this issue for a while, started another topic about this possibility before it was actually an issue but now it's actually happening.
Sense the new incarnate stuff has been out I've been trying to run the weekly strike Target once a day always on a different character. As well as doing some badge hunting for accolades and trials for the 4 new incarnate slots. Now here's the issue. As more and more people have been realizing that they don't need shards anymore for their Alpha Slot there have been less and less people doing the weekly strike target. Last week there were actually times where I was trying to form a team for both Dr. Khan and Barracuda and one of the teams took me about 5 hours to form and the other never even happened. I got 1 person to show up and a bunch of people telling me "Why don't you just go into trials, threads are allot easier to get than shards." There are only two trials and I'm already doing them way too much. I shouldn't have to run both trials more than once each per day just to get a slot unlocked and slotted. And I know there's a new trial coming out soon but one extra trial is not going to solve the problem. Quite frankly the game is becoming repetitive and boring. When you start out the game there's a whole world of content that you can play and all of it will give you the same rewards that will help your character advance in the game... till you get to 50 then you have to do this very specific and limited content in order to advance in the game. To be honest I felt like there was more content in the game for 50s before incarnate content existed. Sure we couldn't get XP and Inf was basically useless to us but we could do anything we wanted. There was nothing limiting our game play except our own desire to make the character stronger than it already was and that's why incarnate content was created, to give us a way to make our characters stronger. But has incarnate content really added any new game play features. No, it has actually taken away from game play not added to it. I can't advance in the game without doing the same thing over and over again and it's getting really boring. Sunday this week I actually stopped playing the game. I've logged on, upgraded an incarnate ability with threads I already had and then logged off without playing. Because what am I going to do on the game? I'm going to run a bunch of trials or stand around forever begging people to join a TF team. How about changing the content to one form of currency. There doesn't need to be Shards and Threads if everything can be done with threads. As I predicted months ago the value of Shards has gone down hill sense the introduction of Threads. So just get rid of them. And why do I need to do trials to get the damn things anyway? I'm bored out of my skull, make the rewards drop for all content so I can play the normal game like before I was 50 where I could do anything and still advance. Don't make game content that forces me into doing this or I can't get this. I don't like that. New content like the incarnate trials are only good when I'm not being forced to do them. And yes it is forced. When you have it programmed so there's no other way to get the rewards than to do this one specific thing, that's force. You're using an incentive to get me to do something I might not normally do on my own. No you're no pointing a gun to my head and saying I have to do the incarnate trials or else, that's a different kind of force with a different motivator. And actually I'm allot more likely to do something I don't want to do if you reward me for it than if you punish me for not doing it so I'd probably just let you shoot me in the head rather than do the incarnate trials over and over again. Eventually I'll run out of threads to just craft things and maybe I'll have a different outlook after a break from the game but damn stop with the "you have to do this to get this" tactics. I'm bored, right now staring at the little bumps in the ceiling seems like more fun than killing Marauder, Siege, and Nightstar for the 123,456,790th time. I've been on this game for 7 years. Most of my friends stopped playing years ago because they felt it was getting too repetitive and I keep trying to convince them to start playing again every time new content gets added but this time around. I don't think I could convince anyone that the game isn't repetitive when I don't even believe it myself. I almost want to just role a new character and ignore the incarnate stuff till there's more content to play with. I'm just bored with BAF/LAM runs. Keys will only be a temporary fix till I've done that one so much I'm bored with it. In a perfect world I'd have everything unlocked before I could get bored with the trials or there would of been more content to do before it was made public. The way I see it with as long as it takes to unlock everything there should already be at least 45 different incarnate trials. That way with a single character you can unlock a slot and get up to a t4 incarnate ability without the need to repeat a trial unless you really want to. People have been begging for more level 50 content for years when they already had content they could do. My first 50 still has missions after 7 years that he hasn't finished and still won't finish because I'm too busy repeating these trials over and over. With so much content already in the game why limit me to these two trials? Why can't I just do my normal missions in Firebase Zulu and get Threads that way? I've still never seen the storm palace and probably never will the way this is going. X( |
Then TAKE a break from it and do something else. I am not saying you don;t have a point. The reason we now have the Keyes Island Trial is even the Devs realized that the player base would be bored out of their minds if the only way to EVER get threads and component drops was the BAF and LAM. But even with a third trail it can still get very repetative very quickly.
Okay I have 36 characters on Virtue. 24 of those are 50 levels and of those I currently am running 9 or 10 through trials and making them incarnates.. more may come later but for now even that is a LOT. I also have 12 characters that are not 50 levels and I have already taken several weeks off from the grind and played my lower levels.
Personally while I enjoy the trials most of the time I feel that they eventually need to come up with Incarnate contacts that will allow people to solo or form 2-8 man teams and gain threads and components. Not everyone wants to do the trials (even once let alone hundreds of times) and some have computers that make it impossible. The Devs need to come up with a BETTER way than the lame one we have now for those people to obtain incarnate abilities. But as you mentioned there is no one holding a gfun to your head and saying you MUST run trials and you must run they every day and get all your powers a quickly as possible. When it gets tedious go play a 15 level for a day or so. Sanity will return and youo won't mind doing a trial or two now and then.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
There are also many ways to combat repetitiveness:
Global Channels - Join a Global Channel dedicated to badge-hunting, or some other common goal. More often than not, you'll find the right sort of task to do that fits your mood. Whether it be straight up badge-hunting, or teaching some newer players how to get the most out of inventions/enhancements, or even going on a City/Isle-wide GM hunt for laughs, you're bound to wind up doing something fun.
Take a break - go play another game or do something non computer-based. It works.
Avoid Keeping Up With The Joneses - So the person you play regularly with has had some time off and has ground their way to unlocking T4 Incarnate Powers. So what? Tag along with them or start your own 'regular' mission team for drops and rewards.
Do stuff that isn't WST - Trials (Eden, Sewers, etc), Mothership Raids, Hamidon, Cathedral of Pain, an OB TF (such as Jade Spider). It's still fun. It may not drop 10 million shards, but it's still enjoyable.
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Some people are just having fun, without worrying about that.
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Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
If you don't care about advancing in the game why are you playing the game in the first place?
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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What? People play games just to have fun? That's . . . that's . . .|
Originally Posted by Aneko
Some people are just having fun, without worrying about that.
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It means you have to put aside your greed and learn to do without.|
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
When you have it programmed so there's no other way to get the rewards than to do this one specific thing, that's force.
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And that's something I think the vast majority of the CoH playerbase needs to learn.
I'm amused by defenses of the incarnate system that tell you not to play the incarnate system.
And I'm not going to bother discussing anything else in any of your posts. You don't need the Incarnate rewards to play the game. They are in no way required.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093