Just for fun on the weekend I decided to roll a nin/ff and add stealth (grant invis). At 18 every battle I have to heal 1 of my pets or use smoke flash defensively to shift aggro to a different pet. It's not fun any more.
the reason why all of the pets have the extra dmg if hidden or placated is because of smoke flash, which can be used on any of the pets and does make them placate enemies
Would be interesting if one of the upgrades would give your genin and jounin "shadow doubles". Basically they would be exact duplicates of the existing ninja, but they would be immune to damage. They would soak up some attacks and they would increase the damage output, plus it would look awesome with a small horde of ninja. When the original pet dies the shadow disappears as well.
I would also like a version of the Oni that at least looks like a ninja.
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i like this idea, basically like how the phantasm works with his decoy and all that jazz
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Would be interesting if one of the upgrades would give your genin and jounin "shadow doubles". Basically they would be exact duplicates of the existing ninja, but they would be immune to damage. They would soak up some attacks and they would increase the damage output, plus it would look awesome with a small horde of ninja. When the original pet dies the shadow disappears as well.
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And here I thought it was because of the Inverse Ninja Law.
"The more Ninja there are, the weaker each of them is."
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Well Oni isn't really a Ninja. It's a spirit, how the Oni was ever portrayed as a Ninja in the devs eyes is beyond me. Maybe because of it's Japanese nature, I don't know.|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Would be interesting if one of the upgrades would give your genin and jounin "shadow doubles". Basically they would be exact duplicates of the existing ninja, but they would be immune to damage. They would soak up some attacks and they would increase the damage output, plus it would look awesome with a small horde of ninja. When the original pet dies the shadow disappears as well.
I would also like a version of the Oni that at least looks like a ninja. |
But to the OP, I used to have a Ninja / Dark and I deleted him, no matter how I built him I couldn't keep the ninjas alive long enough to defeat anything. I'm not saying it wasn't fun, as it was. I just got sick of casting new Ninjas after each and every mob I encountered.
Force Field secondary may be a good way to go with Ninjas, you may be able to get them to soft capped defense. I could be wrong, but I think you can at least get it pretty damn close. I know my Thugs / Dark henchmen are all soft capped defense and they are monsters. I may try Ninja / Force Field myself, I'm just not sure I can get use to not having some sort of debuff for my MM.
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I mean that I would like a tier 3 ninja that looks like a ninja instead of a demon that looks like a demon.
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Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
Well Oni isn't really a Ninja. It's a spirit, how the Oni was ever portrayed as a Ninja in the devs eyes is beyond me. Maybe because of it's Japanese nature, I don't know.
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Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
the reason why all of the pets have the extra dmg if hidden or placated is because of smoke flash, which can be used on any of the pets and does make them placate enemies
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Duh ... I knew that ... I think ...
Doesn't change the fact that the Ninja Primary would be a lot more viable (and useful!) if Kuji In Zen offered Grant Power Hide to Genin, Jounin, Oni and the casting Mastermind so that the whole powerset played more like a Stalker (with Pets and multiple personality disorder). Also doesn't change the fact that Smoke Flash would be far more useful as a "Me And My Pets" PBAoE Effect too, as I've outlined.
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Originally Posted by Starcloud
And here I thought it was because of the Inverse Ninja Law.
"The more Ninja there are, the weaker each of them is." |
Just about the only way that I can think of to make the Inverse Ninja Law "feasible" in CoH would be to give Ninja/* a power akin to Gang War from Thugs. Call it "Ninja Horde" ... and make it a Toggle Power with a 1.5 second Activation Time. That way, every 1.5 seconds, you summon another "Ninja Crunchy" to join your horde. The downside is that every "Ninja Crunchy" has a passive 12ft spherical PBAoE aura around them that DEBUFFS Defense (-1%), ToHit (-1%) and Damage (-1%) of all Ninja Genin, Jounin, Oni and Ninja Crunchies within the area of effect. Max limit of 16 Ninja Crunchies summoned simultaneously (via 24 second duration for each of the summons?).
That way, you can get a sort of Inverse Ninja Law going at the player's discretion. This would, of course, mandate that the Genin, Jounin and Oni all be BUFFED natively so as to better "withstand" the effects of Inverse Ninja Law as applied by Ninja Horde. The idea being that current Live performance would be the "bottom line" of performance by the Ninja Primary when all 16 Ninja Crunchies are out and in play, but with a higher "top line" performance when the Ninja Horde is not toggled on (or all wiped out by AoE).
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Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
Well Oni isn't really a Ninja. It's a spirit, how the Oni was ever portrayed as a Ninja in the devs eyes is beyond me. Maybe because of it's Japanese nature, I don't know.
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Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
But to the OP, I used to have a Ninja / Dark and I deleted him, no matter how I built him I couldn't keep the ninjas alive long enough to defeat anything. I'm not saying it wasn't fun, as it was. I just got sick of casting new Ninjas after each and every mob I encountered.
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That means taking Provoke out of the Presence Pool to try and draw aggro onto myself, away from my Ninjas, and Tankermind every spawn group. EVERY SPAWN GROUP. At least with Dark, you've got a Target AoE Heal and ToHit Debuffs working for you. With Trick Arrow, you don't even have THAT. Trick Arrow offers almost NOTHING to help keep your pets alive (and free of aggro, so they can stay alive).I ran a Barracuda SF this week with my Ninja/Trick/Soul. For pretty much the entire SF, I might as well not have had a Primary Powerset. Hostile mobs just looked at my Ninjas funny and my Ninjas would keel over dead. In the battle against Reichsman, there were so many Boss Shotgun Cones flying around everywhere that summoning my Ninjas (again, and again, and again, and again...) was literally both a waste of time, and a waste of endurance. I was pretty much reduced to being a Poor Man's Debuffer (since that's just about ALL that Trick Arrow can do) for the entire SF. It was quite disheartening.
The situation is pretty much the same on BAF and Lambda Trials. The only time that my Ninjas are an asset is during the Prisoner Escape Phase of BAF ... and even then, it's only because the Prisoners DON'T FIGHT BACK. Of course, Damage From Pets "doesn't count" as far as the Participation Meter for rewards is concerned, so even then, my Ninjas hurt me more than they help me.
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Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
Force Field secondary may be a good way to go with Ninjas, you may be able to get them to soft capped defense. I could be wrong, but I think you can at least get it pretty damn close. I know my Thugs / Dark henchmen are all soft capped defense and they are monsters. I may try Ninja / Force Field myself, I'm just not sure I can get use to not having some sort of debuff for my MM.
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Plus I'm already planning to 6-slot Force Bolt with Kinetic Crash, for maximum Golfing potential at all levels (and because Kinetic Crash has sweet set bonuses for a Mastermind!).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Actually one suggestion I had a while back for representing the Inverse Ninja Law was focused less on them getting weaker when there's more and more of them getting stronger when there's fewer. Give them Nemesis style Vengeance for whenever one of them dies.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Just about the only way that I can think of to make the Inverse Ninja Law "feasible" in CoH would be to give Ninja/* a power akin to Gang War from Thugs. Call it "Ninja Horde" ... and make it a Toggle Power with a 1.5 second Activation Time. That way, every 1.5 seconds, you summon another "Ninja Crunchy" to join your horde. The downside is that every "Ninja Crunchy" has a passive 12ft spherical PBAoE aura around them that DEBUFFS Defense (-1%), ToHit (-1%) and Damage (-1%) of all Ninja Genin, Jounin, Oni and Ninja Crunchies within the area of effect. Max limit of 16 Ninja Crunchies summoned simultaneously (via 24 second duration for each of the summons?).
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My main villain (first one on when CoV went live) is a Ninja/DM MM. He's lvl 50 and at first in CoV beta I had a ninja/poison....no way I'd do that live I said.
Ninjas need AoE heals and/or def buffs (FF, DM or Pain Dom. now). Ninja/DM isn't too bad but yeah....they are definitely squishy.
I remember one mission I was lk'ed up to an sgmate who was like 5-10 lvls above me. It was a mission with scrapyarders in it....yeah....AoE burn patches ate my ninjas up FAST. I was seriously respawning them as fast as the power recharged....it wasn't fun.
Beyond that it wasn't too bad. I solo'ed some EBs by myself (not sure if they were AVs or not to be honest)....
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Just want to let you know that of all the Ninja combos I've tried, Ninja/FF is the best one especially once you have Power Boost. Jounin's defense will be well over the soft-cap and Genins will be over the soft-cap too as long as they stay within your Dispersion bubble. You just need to follow them closer.
Part of the reason /FF works much better on Ninja is that two bubble shields stay on them! I've tried Ninja/Trap before and it's hard to keep the ninja within FFG range because they just run so darn fast and if any of Genin knocks back with Crane kick, you'll need to chase as well.
Ninja does not fit well with resistance sets like Thermal or Pain because the Ninjas themselves have almost no resistance (only Oni has some) to stack with. A fire shield that provides 20% resistance is not going to save Genin when it matters.
Trick Arrow's debuff values won't help much. Basically to ensure Ninjas survive longer, you are pretty much limited to bodyguard mode or /ff and /trap with team teleport so you teleport with FFG and ninjas together.
But after testing most of the pets on the weekend, I can tell you that Ninja set's damage potential is really quite high. Remember, it's the "potential", not the real numbers because Ninjas die the fastest.
Hey, at least this is a good news for Ninja because Stalker has the least survival in terms of HP cap and yet Stalker deals the least amount of damage of all "DPS" ATs. Stalker ranks behind Blaster, Scrapper, SoA, some Dominators and some Brutes.
One change I really want to see if giving Ninjas higher AoE defense. It's fine if they die by taking one single hit because at least they suffer for the team but it truly sucks that one aoe from a boss wipes out most of Genins.
I've been testing Ninjas a lot and their design is better when they "spread out". The benefit of spreading out is that Caltrops and Rain of Fire last longer. If you focus fire on the first target, your caltrops/roa may end too quick. Genin's Crane Kick also works better when they find their own target. The knockback helps their survival a bit. However, spreading out is also extremely dangerous because Ninja chases too fast! I almost never let my pets choose their targets on a large team (hence why I hate bodyguard mode) because I am so afraid Ninja is going to chase. When I am soloing, I don't really care if they spread out. Spreading out helps Oni's AI too as he tends to cycle other attacks on different targets.
Now the key question is, is Ninja's damage Horribly Strong to match their Horribly Weak Survival?:P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I'm wondering, would it be good to swap Aimed Shot with Stunning Shot? It would probably be similar to Energize in that it skirts the cottage rule without actually breaking it since it's still ST ranged damage. Making it an actual control power, even if it's just ST, adds more protection for the Ninjas, gives a stacking option for some secondary powers like Thunder Clap, and increases slotting options. Might post this in the consolidated thread.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
And if the Mastermind could partake of Grant Power Hide via casting of Kuji In Zen ... that would then imply that their Snap Shot, Aimed Shot and Fistful of Arrows personal attack powers should also get the "Stalker Crit from Hidden" modifier added to them. Considering that *NONE* of the Archery powers available to Ninja Masterminds accept any IO Sets other than Damage ... this would seem to be a "deserved boost" to the Primary, and one which might actually convince (some) people that the personal attack Archery powers are actually worth taking, as opposed to skipping them like the junk they are now.
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This is going to be one of those "6 of one, half-a-dozen of the other" kinds of differences. My way has the Ninja Pets put on a higher baseline, which is then DEBUFFED by extra *Living* Crunchies. Your way keeps the baseline the same as it has been, but then adds BUFFING for every *Dead* Crunchy Ninja. The outcome is essentially the same (strong when few, weak when many) ... but the means and implications are quite different, not to mention the game mechanics involved.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Actually one suggestion I had a while back for representing the Inverse Ninja Law was focused less on them getting weaker when there's more and more of them getting stronger when there's fewer. Give them Nemesis style Vengeance for whenever one of them dies.
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The way I figure the Inverse Ninja Law *ought* to work (conceptually) is that it should be based on the number of LIVE Ninjas in the fight at the time ... rather than on the number of DEAD Ninjas who have been slain recently.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Just want to let you know that of all the Ninja combos I've tried, Ninja/FF is the best one especially once you have Power Boost.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Trick Arrow's debuff values won't help much. Basically to ensure Ninjas survive longer, you are pretty much limited to bodyguard mode or /ff and /trap with team teleport so you teleport with FFG and ninjas together.
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Tell me about it!
Trick Arrow not only doesn't help Ninjas survive all that well ... except when soloing where you can "control" the engagement speeds, timing and direction ... but to top it all off, the Debuffs that are the whole point of the powerset don't help your Ninjas attack all that well either. Yeah, you've got Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow to Debuff Resistances with, but those two powers don't do a whole lot to "amp up" the damage your Ninjas are dishing out to the point where your Ninjas spend a LOT less time exposed to Enemy Aggro. You can't really "kite" all that effectively with Entangling Arrow and Glue Arrow, since the Ninjas just want to get into melee range (and Die Horribly (fast)). Just about the only help you get from Trick Arrow is Ice Arrow (to Hold a single target) and Oil Slick Arrow, which has a nice big FEAR Aura on it that stops Foes from attacking your Ninjas. Poison Gas Arrow is "useless" for mitigation, since it's only a Mag 2 Sleep that's not even 100% chance. Flash Arrow Debuffs ToHit ... but because it's Unresistable, the Debuff Value is puny and small and not worth bothering with (even when enhanced!).
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
But after testing most of the pets on the weekend, I can tell you that Ninja set's damage potential is really quite high. Remember, it's the "potential", not the real numbers because Ninjas die the fastest.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
One change I really want to see if giving Ninjas higher AoE defense. It's fine if they die by taking one single hit because at least they suffer for the team but it truly sucks that one aoe from a boss wipes out most of Genins.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Now the key question is, is Ninja's damage Horribly Strong to match their Horribly Weak Survival?:P
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Remember, the Ninja Primary powerset was designed by Geko and signed off on by Statesman back in the Issue 4-6 days ... not by Castle, and most definitely not by Black Scorpion. I'm thinking it's a far safer bet to say that Ninjas ... and Mercenaries(!) ... were just horribly, horribly designed to begin with, and they've had the fundamentals of the game they operate in changed out from under them (Global Defense Nerf, Enhancement Dysfunction, Inventions, Incarnates, Pets Ignore Recharge, Mothership Raids, Modern Hamidon Raids, etc. etc. etc.) and they've just never been brought back into alignment with how things ACTUALLY work in the game we've got today. Ninjas and Mercenaries are essentially "legacy" powersets that not only never kept up with the times, but which have been pretty much "left behind" as the game has continued to advance into the future.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I don't know who design what but I can tell you the two newer sets Thug and Demon are better designed. The powers have much better synergies. |
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Remember, the Ninja Primary powerset was designed by Geko and signed off on by Statesman back in the Issue 4-6 days ... not by Castle, and most definitely not by Black Scorpion. I'm thinking it's a far safer bet to say that Ninjas ... and Mercenaries(!) ... were just horribly, horribly designed to begin with, and they've had the fundamentals of the game they operate in changed out from under them (Global Defense Nerf, Enhancement Dysfunction, Inventions, Incarnates, Pets Ignore Recharge, Mothership Raids, Modern Hamidon Raids, etc. etc. etc.) and they've just never been brought back into alignment with how things ACTUALLY work in the game we've got today. Ninjas and Mercenaries are essentially "legacy" powersets that not only never kept up with the times, but which have been pretty much "left behind" as the game has continued to advance into the future.
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In fact, the dev should have re-evaluate recharge time in some of pet attacks when they decided to get rid of them. The pet AI change benefits some pets (like Fly Trap and Genin) that have a mix of range/melee but for pets like Soldiers, they are 95% range so the AI change only makes them worse by forcing one or two pets go melee.
Set bonuses can make other ATs so much better because of +recharge and +defense. MM's pets don't benefit much from it so in the end, some pets are lagging behind in terms of performance and damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...Z9Q0UmAA#t=36s|
Originally Posted by Starcloud
And here I thought it was because of the Inverse Ninja Law.
"The more Ninja there are, the weaker each of them is." |
What if they're Voltronic ninja?
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These two quotes some it up pretty well.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
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In fact, the dev should have re-evaluate recharge time in some of pet attacks when they decided to get rid of them. The pet AI change benefits some pets (like Fly Trap and Genin) that have a mix of range/melee but for pets like Soldiers, they are 95% range so the AI change only makes them worse by forcing one or two pets go melee. |
My own proposal to fix ninjas would have been to up the Genin and Oni base defense of 13.90% defense (which could go up by 1.60% by level fifty), give Jounin an 15% (+1.80 by 50) and give them all Phalanx Fighting passive from Shield Defense. This would convey them working as a group and subvert that stupid "inverse law of ninjutsu" cliche, as well as given them good survivability when they're all out.
Also, while maybe not needed by this point, I would suggest giving the Oni O2 Boost and/or gale/hurricane. The reason for this being that it's always bugged me how the Oni's description says he's a "warrior of WIND and fire." but we never really see much in the way of the former part.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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In the spirit of the previous work done by Jibikao on Spec-Ops and Enforcers, I've got some Jounin numbers for you.
Methodology: Take one Jounin, upgrade fully, have it attack a Practice Dummy in RWZ while I monitor the pet combat channels to count attacks. Then take base damage listed for each attack power @ L50, multiply by 1.95 (for 95% damage enhancement from 3x L50 SOs), and tally up the enhanced results.
List format: <Attack Name>: <Number of> x <base damage> (enhanced damage) = <total raw enhanced damage>
Starting Jounin off right next to a dummy, attack for 60s:
Gambler's Cut: 9 x 25.70 (50.10) = 450.90
Sting of the Wasp: 6 x 35.48 (69.19) = 415.14
Soaring Dragon: 5 x 55.06 (107.37) = 536.85
Golden Dragonfly: 3 x 69.75 (136.01) = 408.03
Poison Dart: 1 x 37.50 (73.13) = 73.13
Placate: 2
Blinding Powder: 1
Total: 1,884.05
Starting Jounin from Poison Dart range, attack for 60s:
Gambler's Cut: 8 x 25.70 (50.10) = 400.80
Sting of the Wasp: 6 x 35.48 (69.19) = 415.14
Soaring Dragon: 4 x 55.06 (107.37) = 429.48
Golden Dragonfly: 3 x 69.75 (136.01) = 408.03
Poison Dart: 2 x 37.50 (73.13) = 146.26
Placate: 1
Blinding Powder: 1
Total: 1,799.71
In each case, Jounin threw 1x Caltrops during the 60s. Caltrops with 95% enhancement does 487.96 damage IF all 46 ticks land, which they would on a motionless target like the Practice Dummy. Since this doesn't happen very often in game, and Caltrops goes away when the target dies, its damage has not been included in these calculations.
If you wanted to guesstimate, though, Caltrops ticks once a second for 5.42 damage per tick. Every second the bad guy is alive, then, adds that much. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that Caltrops lands 5-15 ticks of damage on average, so you could add ~25-75 damage to each total above.
Furthermore, Placate makes this a little harder to pin down, too. Sometimes it happens right before Gambler's Cut, sometimes right before Golden Dragonfly. To have a number to throw out there, take the average of those four melee attacks' damage and tack it on for every Placate that gets thrown: 90.67 damage.
With the fuzzy bits added on, you're looking at around 2,115-ish damage for melee-only, and about 1,940-ish damage for start-from-range Jounin.
I've not tried to factor in Smoke Flash, either. That's probably good for another couple-to-few-hundred damage, depending on how things worked out.
This is, of course, single-target, but this is what you get for Ninja fragility: A Can of Whoop-***. 
(Enforcers averaged around ~1290 from Jibikao's results, and Spec-Ops were turning in around ~820. Just for comparison's sake.)
Arc ID#1160 : "In the Shadow of Statesman" -Finished
Part Two--Under Construction
Entropic, the problem has never been that "Ninjas don't *DO* enough damage" (per se) ... it's that they don't *LIVE* long enough to *DO* their damage. This makes them lousy, even as speed bumps, at survival ... which prompts a "need" for nigh constant resummoning (and re-training).
The Test Dummy Test you've just provided shows, in part, why Tankerminding is one of the few successful strategies that can be employed with Ninja when paired with any Secondary other than Force Field. That's because in order to *LIVE* in order to actually do any meaningful Damage, Ninjas *NEED* to NOT be the target of any aggro. When nothing fights (back at) them, Ninjas can be very successful. When Foes target Ninjas for destruction, Ninjas fold like origami rice paper (pre-creased!). They just have no native staying power whatsoever under duress.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
My ninja/poison likes to open with the slow cone and Black Scorpion's aoe immob. I'll vouch for the power of double stacked caltrops on mobs that can't get out of them!
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Originally Posted by Entropic_Shift
With the fuzzy bits added on, you're looking at around 2,115-ish damage for melee-only, and about 1,940-ish damage for start-from-range Jounin.
I've not tried to factor in Smoke Flash, either. That's probably good for another couple-to-few-hundred damage, depending on how things worked out. This is, of course, single-target, but this is what you get for Ninja fragility: A Can of Whoop-***. (Enforcers averaged around ~1290 from Jibikao's results, and Spec-Ops were turning in around ~820. Just for comparison's sake.) |
One thing about Jounins is that while they deal great ST Melee damage when the target is not moving, their damage potential can be greatly reduced if the target is moving/flying or if the target gets knocked back and they have to chase which happens all the time with Genins.
If the target is moving, Jounin would chase and delay in attacks. I've seen numerous times when the ninjas would chase, pause, hit once and then chase again. All that potential DPS is lost!!! The worst is against flyer like Longbow Eagle. They would chase and if Eagle is in the sky, the Ninjas would just ruin in circles for a while (this is the exact reason why I want my Oni to only cycle Ring of Fire, Char and Fire Blast! I don't need 6 pets chasing). Ugh. It's like once the pet's mode change to "melee", it takes time for them to realize that they need to switch to "range" mode. Stupid.
Grave Knights, in this regard, is a bit better because they have two range attacks in Dark Blast and Gloom which do good damage. Poison Dart isn't exactly a great range attack in most cases. It is useful for -regen however.
If I can remember, I'll post Genin and Zombie's numbers tonight. I can tell you that Genin's damage potential is very high for minions. The level shift in trials will make Genins deal the most damage of all 3 tiers (if they don't die of course. hehe).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Here is the number for Genin at melee range for 60s.
Thunder Kick (25.02) x 6 = 150.12
Storm Kick (33.03) x 5 = 165.12
Crane Kick (41.03) x 4 = 164.12
Shuriken (this one is tricky as both shuriken have the same name and dummy shows zero damage. For sake of simplicity, one has 19.46 and the other has 25.69. I'll use the average, which is 22.58 base damage) x 11 = 248.38
Exploding Shuriken (25.02) x 3 = 75.06 (aoe)
Total base damage is 802.80 and with 95% enhancement, you are looking at 1500 to 1565 damage range depending on the distance. This is just ONE Genin. You have 3 of them.
Now, before we get too excited, it's no secret that when Genins are unharmed, they can really put a lot of hurt but they deal zero damage when they die.
Jounin's damage number is about 2000 before critical is considered. Genin is about 1500. Oni is about 1400 (on average). Ninja set as a whole does put out a lot of damage. I have to say, it is pretty impressive ON PAPER.
For giggle, Commando is about 1600 (with quite a bit of cone damage), Spec-Op is about 823 and Soldier is about 852 and Medic is about 755. Big difference eh? :P
There are a lot of factors to consider of course.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I just don't seem to have the bad luck others do using Ninjas.
Maybe it's tactics, maybe it was a better pairing of a secondary for mitigation (storm), maybe it's using Team TP to place them in the middle of spawns and letting BG take care of the rest while I am the agro magnet.
But I honestly cannot say my ninjas die anymore than my bots, undead, thugs, or demons.
Maybe it was the view that they were reported to be paper cannons so I planned properly to mitigate the issues others were having when I planned my build; a build without taunt just a reliance on storm for my agro.
I can appreciate what is being said here, but is not a trade-off of damage survivability? Blasters for example?
Playstyle may count for something, but you cannot expect every set to play the same; what would be the point of alts other than cosmetic?
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*others left off due to space issues
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This is why your Ninjas live longer. You've got a secondary which can actively promote their survival through debuffs and knockback and extra pets (lightning storm, for example) and which has a heal power in it (O2 Boost) so you don't have to include the Medicine Pool in your build, and you've gone all the way out to Team Teleport for unified mobility. The sheer aggro generation of Storm powers alone means that you can both herd AND tankermind with remarkably little difficulty, while at the same time denying hostiles all kinds of opportunities to attack either yourself, or your Ninjas.|
Originally Posted by Wassabi
maybe it was a better pairing of a secondary for mitigation (storm), maybe it's using Team TP to place them in the middle of spawns and letting BG take care of the rest while I am the agro magnet.
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So yes ... in your case ... your Ninjas live longer because of your Secondary. Force Fields and Storm are basically the only Secondaries that *actually* help Ninjas to live longer (or long enough) to output their damage reasonably consistently in combat. We'll have to wait and see if Time Manipulation falls more into the FF/Storm side of things, or the "every other Secondary available" category when it comes to the task of keeping Ninjas alive.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Quote:
Yes/No. |
Originally Posted by Wassabi
I can appreciate what is being said here, but is not a trade-off of damage survivability? Blasters for example? |
I do think Ninja at least has the highest ST damage "potential" of all primaries which explains why they only have defense and Genins only have about 7% at lvl 50. Comparing this to Stalker, who has the least amount of survivability, the other melee dps or even range dps like Blaster do more damage while having better survival.
There are tactics that can help Ninja survive longer but those tactics also work even better on Robot/Thug/Demon and Merc (survival yes, but not damage). I've seen Robot/Trap soloing AVs and even some Giant Monsters. I've yet to solo an AV with Ninja/FF. I will try though. :P Of course soloing an AV isn't the base-line performance.
In the toughest battles, there are a lot of aoe damage or even damage that you can't avoid (soul drain, blue flame from sky, etc), melee-oriented pets like Ninja suffers the most because they are simply melee-oriented. Range pets may not survive those aoe but at least they tend to stay on the back. Being range-oriented is already a form of "self defense".
I've said it before, if a melee pet can't survive one/two hits, then they have no business going melee. It is very common for Genin to die from one hit and a lot of times from aoe. Oh and I normally don't use setting lower than +1.
/Storm is one of the best secondaries for MM in my opinion. You can position yourself with Hurrican while your pets attack. When you solo, you have no worries that your teammates are going to hate your hurrican and knock backs. I have a lvl 50 Merc/Storm, 46 Necro/Storm and I used to have a lowbie Ninja/Storm. (By the way, of all Merc combos I've tried, Merc/Storm is the best choice!)
The problem with Ninja is that if you don't take /secondary into consideration, their innate defense is pathetic. There are so many -defense attacks in the game. Almost every attack from Longbow has -defense. However, after playing my old Ninja/FF again, their performance is a lot better than I remembered, especially after I discovered that power boost can boost force shields.
If anyone wants to try Ninja and don't want to deal with the frustration later on, I'll highly recommend /FF. The boredom of casting shield one at a time should be greatly reduced with 20.5 patch.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Grabbed screenshots from in-game tonight of the Show Details on my Ninja Mastermind. Left column is what you get with the base summoning power. Center column is what gets added by Train Ninjas. Right column is what gets added by Kuji In Zen. The scale in the screenshots has been kept at 1:1 pixels from what you see in-game. Have a look ...
There are some interesting things that "jump out" at me from looking at these.
First and foremost are the Defense Values for Genin and Oni ... at a whopping (measly) 6.97% Def vs Melee/Ranged/Aoe! No wonder everything in the entire game can hit them without breaking a sweat (or even trying that hard). Jounin are "slightly" better at 13.94% Def vs Melee/Ranged/AoE ... but this is (literally!) a case of "twice nothing is still nothing" ... especially since you can't slot ANY of the Ninja Pets for Defense Buff Enhancements. Worse, even if you *could* slot Defense Buff Enhancements into the Ninja Pets, that would just take precious slots away from slotting Accuracy, Damage and Endurance Reduction ... the REAL bread & butter slotting needed by ALL Mastermind Pets!
Oni at least has a little bit of actual Resistances to help him out ... a full 26.14% Resistance vs Smash/Lethal, and a somewhat appropriate 52.29% Resistance vs Fire (because, well, he's a Fire Demon).
The fundamental problem here is that the Defense Values given to Ninja Pets is so miserably low as to be not even worth mentioning, not even in the "speed bump" sense of being able to extend Time Alive. Genin with less than 600 HP (578.28 HP, for mine @ 50), with no appreciable Resistances anywhere (other than Inspirations!) are prime candidates for being one-shotted, if not two-shotted by pretty much EVERYTHING in the end game. And to make things even *more* fun ... they don't even get Typed Defenses (S/L/E/N/F/C/T/Psi) "just in case" there's an attack power coded in a wonky way elsewhere in the powers database. Ninjas just get Positional Defenses (Melee/Ranged/AoE) in such token quantities as to not even be worth using as a fig leaf!
No wonder Ninjas have the lousiest survival rate of any Pet Set. They're (for all intents and purposes) essentially NAKED as far as Protection Schemes go. And that's *before* realizing that Genin are pretty much almost ALWAYS going to be -2 or -3 (if not -4 or worse!) against everything the Mastermind is fighting, just because of the Minion Level Shift! And as anyone who has played (and learned) what Level Shifting does to Defensive Protection Schemes ... it becomes very apparent, VERY RAPIDLY, that that miserly 6.97% Defense granted to Genin is completely overwhelmed by the +ToHit and +Accuracy granted to even +2 Minions (who are +0 to the Mastermind). The net effect therefore is that Genin are ... basically ... TOTALLY DEFENSELESS AT ALL TIMES from levels 18 and up (when they get level shifted -2 relative to their Mastermind). EVERYTHING HITS THEM ... and they have no Defenses (worth mentioning) or Resistances (natively) ... so Genin just ... die ... horribly ... A LOT ...
No wonder the only way to "keep Ninjas alive" is to take Force Fields as your Secondary if you actually want your Ninjas to stand up to ANY aggro of any kind (at all).
The second thing that I notice, in pretty short order, is that EVERY NINJA PET has modifiers on their Single Target Attack Powers which reads (and I quote) ... Only if hidden or target placated.
You see the "Stalker Crit from Hidden" modifier on powers for Genin, Jounin *AND* Oni! All of them! Heck, even the Genin powers of Shuriken and Exploding Shuriken have this modifier on them!
But then when you look even slightly beyond that ... you notice (again, in short order) that *only* Jounin get -Grant Power Hide ... and ... -Grant Power Placate. Furthermore, the Hide power only offers a *miserly* +2.5% Defense vs Melee/Ranged/AoE when in combat (double that when Hidden). There isn't even the "Stalker Standard" massively HUGE boost to Def vs AoE when Hidden here.
Clearly ... the Ninja Primary was designed to be a Pet Herding Stalker type of powerset. Instead of being a Lone Stalker ... instead, you were a Group Of Stalkers, with the Mastermind in Command. Seen in that light, a lot of the things about the Ninja Primary make a lot more sense than they do right now. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, the whole idea that a Ninja Mastermind ought to be able to "ninja" a mission, much like the way that Stalkers and Bane Soldiers can via Hidden Status, got completely trashed somehow ... and the powerset never really recovered from that assault & battery via Nerf Wrecking Ball.
If Kuji In Zen offered Grant Power Hide to Genin, Jounin and Oni ... and to the casting Mastermind(!) ... that would make a whole lot more sense than what we've got right now. If that Grant Power Hide offered +25% Def vs AoE when Hidden ... instead of merely an extra +2.5% Def vs AoE, that would not only be extremely important, but would also make possible novel new alpha strike strategies both when solo and in support of teams and leagues. After all ... Stalkers get 10x the AoE Defense from their Hide power, when Hidden ... and arguably, Masterminds "need" that extra protection against AoE for their Pets just as much (if not more?) than Stalkers do in order to engage in Maneuver Warfare.
And if the Mastermind could partake of Grant Power Hide via casting of Kuji In Zen ... that would then imply that their Snap Shot, Aimed Shot and Fistful of Arrows personal attack powers should also get the "Stalker Crit from Hidden" modifier added to them. Considering that *NONE* of the Archery powers available to Ninja Masterminds accept any IO Sets other than Damage ... this would seem to be a "deserved boost" to the Primary, and one which might actually convince (some) people that the personal attack Archery powers are actually worth taking, as opposed to skipping them like the junk they are now.
And last but not least ... what about Smoke Flash? That power that costs way too much endurance, for way too little effect.
Well ... if we posit the notion that the Ninja Mastermind, and entourage, are *supposed to be* quite "Stalker-like" in their operational modes and strategies ... then it only stands to reason that Smoke Flash actually become something more than it is right now.
WHAT IF ...
What if Mastermind Ninja/* primary version Smoke Flash (link) were really a sort of "souped up" version of the Stalker */Ninjitsu secondary version of Smoke Flash (link) intended to affect the Mastermind and any of their nearby Ninja Pets?
The way this would work is that Smoke Flash itself would be reconfigured as a PBAoE with the following properties:
- Recharge: 120 seconds
- Effect Area: Sphere
- Radius: 20 ft
- Max Targets Hit: 255
- Entities Affected: Friend
- Entities Auto-hit: Friend
- Target: Caster
- Target Visibility: Line of Sight
- Notify Mobs: Always
Smoke Flash would then have the following Effects:- Self:
- +54 StealthRadius for 5s (after 1.17 second delay) [Non-resistable]
- +500 StealthRadiusPlayer for 5s (after 1.17 second delay) [Non-resistable]
- Meter +1 for 5s (after 1.17 second delay) [Non-resistable]
- Translucency +0.2 for 5s (after 1 second delay) [Non-resistable]
- Grant Villain_Pets.Kuji_Kiri.Smoke_Bomb (-) [Non-resistable]
- Target:
- +54 StealthRadius for 5s (after 1.17 second delay) ((MastermindPets_Genin or MastermindPets_Jonin) or MastermindPets_Oni) [Non-resistable]
- +500 StealthRadiusPlayer for 5s (after 1.17 second delay) ((MastermindPets_Genin or MastermindPets_Jonin) or MastermindPets_Oni) [Non-resistable]
- Meter +1 for 5s (after 1.17 second delay) ((MastermindPets_Genin or MastermindPets_Jonin) or MastermindPets_Oni) [Non-resistable]
- Translucency +0.2 for 5s (after 1 second delay) ((MastermindPets_Genin or MastermindPets_Jonin) or MastermindPets_Oni) [Non-resistable]
- Grant Villain_Pets.Kuji_Kiri.Smoke_Bomb (-) ((MastermindPets_Genin or MastermindPets_Jonin) or MastermindPets_Oni) [Non-resistable]
What that "concentrated gobbledy-****" means is that rather than doing the "Flash Bomb one Ninja Pet" behavior like we've got right now on Live ... instead ... the Mastermind, and every *Ninja* Pet within 20 ft of the Mastermind, throws a Flash Bomb which wipes aggro and Placates all hostiles around them ... for FIVE seconds. Right now on Live, the effect is 10 seconds, but in a great many circumstances most of those 10 seconds of duration are unnecessary ... except when maneuvering for an alpha strike on unsuspecting mobs. BUT ... with "global Hide" via Kuji In Zen for the Mastermind and all Ninja Pets (see above), the "need" to use Smoke Flash to induce an Alpha Crit pretty much "goes away" ... leaving use of Smoke Flash as an in-combat "reset" button, to allow a cluster of Ninjas, which includes the Mastermind too to "vanish" DURING combat and either reopen their attack(s), or make their escape. That way, it's more like the Stalker version of the Flash Bomb ... but reconfigured to be more of a "group" (of Ninjas) type power, rather than a "soloist" sort of power.Suppressed when Attacked, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Damaged, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Attacked, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Damaged, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Attacked, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Damaged, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Attacked, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when Damaged, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 0 seconds (WhenInactive)
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So to sum up, I think that the Ninja Primary should be modified (or buffed, if you prefer) in the following ways:
Genin Defense vs All (not just Positionals): 13.94%
Jounin Defense vs All (not just Positionals): 20.91%
Oni Defense vs All (not just Positionals): 13.94%
Kuji In Zen: Grant Power Hide to All Ninja Pets and to Caster: Self (ie. the Ninja Mastermind)
Snap Shot, Aimed Shot, Fistful of Arrows: add Crit Damage from Hidden to powers
Smoke Flash: reconfigure (as outlined above) to be a "group" Placate for Mastermind and "nearby" Ninja Pets. Recharge time increased from 30s to 120s to match Stalker Smoke Flash, although Mastermind "group" version has much shorter duration for improved in-combat "swarming" strategies, increasing playability and functionality.
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Bear in mind, that NONE of the above is bringing into the equation (yet) any of the superb work