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Hehehe.. well, one thing to consider is that Merc's damage is mostly range. For Ninja to get that great number, both Jounins must be in melee range.|
Originally Posted by Faded Eidolon
Stop rubbing salt in that wound.
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The problem isn't Ninja VS Merc. The balance problem I see is Thug VS Merc. Enforcers, on average, may do more damage than Jounins because they have awesome cone attacks and their ST damage is still superior than Spec-Ops.
What does Spec-Ops have? All single INFERIOR attacks with super long recharge, inconsistent, unreliable controls, and insufficient S/L resistance for survival.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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What does Ninjas have? Kick Me signs. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
The problem isn't Ninja VS Merc. The balance problem I see is Thug VS Merc.
What does Spec-Ops have? All single INFERIOR attacks with super long recharge, inconsistent, unreliable controls, and insufficient S/L resistance for survival. |
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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How are you getting access to Power Boost? On my copy of Mids', Masterminds only have access to Charge (electric), Chill (cold), Field (energy) and Heat (fire) Mastery. Are you somehow able to access the Primal Forces Mastery that's usually only available to Controllers on your Mastermind on Live?
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
However, after playing my old Ninja/FF again, their performance is a lot better than I remembered, especially after I discovered that power boost can boost force shields.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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It's under Mace mastery. I actually didn't know MM can get power boost until recently. It's a pleasant surprise. I thought Power Boost won't affect shields but then again, I know little about power boost. I just knew Power Boost increases the duration of control powers and my dominators use it. That's all.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
How are you getting access to Power Boost? On my copy of Mids', Masterminds only have access to Charge (electric), Chill (cold), Field (energy) and Heat (fire) Mastery. Are you somehow able to access the Primal Forces Mastery that's usually only available to Controllers on your Mastermind on Live?
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I've also found out that Power Boost does not improve any power with +resistance or +damage because +resistance is treated as +damage in the codes so if power boost improves +resistance, it will also improve +damage portion which will be a headache to balance with. So in the end, they got rid of +resistance but keep +defense.
Force Field works because it only has +defense. Ice Shields, however, won't benefit from Power Boost because it has +resistance. I asked this question when I wanted to find out if power boost increases World of Pain.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Hehe, Ninja at least the potential to deal the most ST damage of all primaries. Merc has no potential at all.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
What does Ninjas have? Kick Me signs.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Shocking finding from last night's test... I was fighting +0 Freakshow boss and I was testing with each group of ninja: Genins, Jounins and Oni.
The first test is with Oni. Without smoke flash, Oni takes forever to kill a +0 Freakshow. I am not surprised as he doesn't cycle every attack when it's recharged.
Second test is with Jounins. In the dummy test, the numbers were calculated when the target does not move but in real situation, it may not be the case because caltrops do fear the target(s). Surprisingly, Jounins take a bit too long to kill the freakshow boss because the boss runs a lot and caltrops certainly does not help that. When the boss runs, Jounins would chase and shoot poison dart which lowers dps greatly. I put chance for negative and AH proc in them.
The last test is with 3 Genins. This is actually the fastest group to take down Freakshow! I think when the enemy group is only +0, Genins' damage output is very high, but when the enemy is +4, their damage gets reduced so much by level difference. I put Chance for Build Up in them. Genins took down freakshow boss faster than Jounins because even when he ran, their throwing stars were still doing good damage.
So the gist is that Genins, when they survive, they add a lot of damage. Of course we know the problem is when genins die. I am still a bit shocked by Genin's damage output.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
This just convinces me even more (as if it were even necessary...) that Ninja Pets just need a wholesale revamp of their powers, both offense and defense.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
I am of the opinion that the Genin and Jounin should have about 30% DEF to M/R/AOE at 50.
Some might think that sounds like a lot, but, really, is it? Thugs get about 18% from their maneuvers and Bots get 15% from their Force Shields... and those pets all have some resistances, too. Plus, Ninjas are in melee and... well, they're ninjas, they should be good at dodging stuff.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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Ninjas should at least have 75% Defense Debuff Resistance. If it's based on Ninjitsu, then they should have at least one self-heal to back up their lack of defense debuff resistance. |
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I am of the opinion that the Genin and Jounin should have about 30% DEF to M/R/AOE at 50.
Some might think that sounds like a lot, but, really, is it? Thugs get about 18% from their maneuvers and Bots get 15% from their Force Shields... and those pets all have some resistances, too. Plus, Ninjas are in melee and... well, they're ninjas, they should be good at dodging stuff. |
Genin's 7% is nothing when he gets hit by a longbow with rifle attack. There are so many attacks with -defense.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
By the way, I've been doing +4 missions and Genin's Crank Kick knockback becomes a Knockdown. The 3 knockdowns are surprisingly useful and effective because knockback causes ninjas to pause/chase.
Maybe changing knockback to knockdown is a good start, just like what they did for Bruiser's handclap and Lich's knockback. Do you see a common trend here? When you give pets knockbacks, it's bad business. It's too unreliable and sometimes it hurts their performance.
Nothing is more annoying than a Genin knocking back a foe to another group of enemy or knocking a foe down to another level and then the pets chase (with their amazing speed), and you can't cancel their action in time, and then they aggro and die. T_T
In fact, Jounins' caltrops can be just as destructive as the knockbacks because enemies run when they get feared. Some mobs like the Wolves can't be immb/slow and they run like a girl EVERYWHERE. If your ninjas are in bodyguard mode, you have at least 5 Aggro-Magnets (Oni is alright) that can cause serious damage to yourself or the whole team.
It's funny that for every ONE POSITIVE Ninja has, there is at least ONE NEGATIVE that comes with it.
1. Faster Speed (positive) : Aggro faster (negative)
2. Higher melee damage (positive) : Taking way more damage at melee especially from aoe (negative)
3. More controls in knockbacks and fear caltrops/fire rain (positive) : causing enemies to run away/spread out way too much and ninjas chasing too fast and aggro (negative)
4. Genins probably do the most damage for Minions (positive) : It's never a good idea to rely on Minions as they are just... minions (negative)
5. Oni has many powers (positive) : and yet he doesn't cycle them frequently (negative). At this rate, I rather Oni have fire blast, ring of fire, char, breath of fire and rain of fire.
It's like Ninjas just can't win.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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There's literally more than 50 powers with a Defense Debuff property on them. There's maybe a quarter as many Resistance Debuff powers (which are, of course, natively resisted by Resistances ... unlike Defenses) and even fewer Regeneration Debuff powers.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
There are so many attacks with -defense.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
I agree that Ninjas need a power revamp. Here are my ideas, some based on the other ideas already presented
-Add higher innate defense. I prefer this over adding the Ninjitsu self-heal
-Change Crane Kick knockback to knockdown. Or maybe even switch Crane Kick for Dragon's Tail?
-Switch Caltrops and Blinding Powder for Flashing Steel (or Lotus Drops)
-Switch Poison Dart for... I'm not sure. Maybe just increase the damage so it's a worthwhile power to cycle/open with. Even if it drops the -regen aspect and it's just renamed to "Wrist Dart"
-Switch Breath of Fire for Fire Ball
-Switch Rain of Fire (eliminating the last fear power) for Smoke (AoE -ToHit and -Perception), to better synergize with the improved defense of the pets
-Switch the 2 Oni melee attacks for Flares and Cauterize (ally heal)
Ideally I would change the fire demon to an elite samurai warrior or something (but not an Ancestor Spirit, that's just a ghost ie another non-ninja pet), but that's pretty much not happening
Anyway, the pets would look like this
Genin
-Basic: Thunder Kick, Shuriken
-Train: Storm Kick, Shuriken
-Zen: Crane Kick w/knockdown (or Dragon's Tail), Exploding Shuriken
Jounin
-Basic: Gambler's Cut, Sting of the Wasp
-Train: Soaring Dragon, improved Poison Dart, Placate
-Zen: Golden Dragonfly, Flashing Steel (or Lotus Drops), Hide
Oni
-Basic: Flares, Fire Blast
-Train: Cauterize, Ring of Fire, Fire Ball
-Zen: Char, Smoke
Post deleted. Better counter-proposal made further down thread.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
If it needs reconfiguration: make Oni into a debuffing machine and give it Trick Archery powers.
And make it look like a proper ninja, dammit.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Maybe I'm weird, but my ninja/poison/mace does a large fraction of her damage via caltrops and rain of fire.
I open with the slow cone and follow with the web immob aoe. 2 sets of caltrops and a RoF can lay down a lot of damage.
Now often the target dies almost immediately which is a waste but on an ITF or something the DoT can be significant. The nictus ambush has a lot of hard targets packed tightly together, or the nictus dudes guarding the shards packed tightly in those tiny rooms.
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Hence I say the DoT (with fear component) is a "positive" too. The fear effect offers soft controls. The negative is that caltrops/rain fear the mobs and if you don't immb all them (Wolves can't be immb and you can't always immb every enemy), they will scatter and your ninjas will chase. It is not uncommon that your ninjas chase and aggro a nearby group. |
Originally Posted by anonymoose
Maybe I'm weird, but my ninja/poison/mace does a large fraction of her damage via caltrops and rain of fire.
I open with the slow cone and follow with the web immob aoe. 2 sets of caltrops and a RoF can lay down a lot of damage. Now often the target dies almost immediately which is a waste but on an ITF or something the DoT can be significant. The nictus ambush has a lot of hard targets packed tightly together, or the nictus dudes guarding the shards packed tightly in those tiny rooms. |
I rarely use bodyguard and I always command on which target they attack but with their speed, it is hard to pull them back in time if they chase running targets.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Cross-posted to the Suggestions Forum for visibility reasons.
Call Genin: +15% Defense vs All, +50% Resistance vs Confuse, -2.0 Confuse Mag Protection, +200% Resistance vs Taunt, +2780% Jump Height, +249% Jump Speed, +85% Run Speed
- Kinetic Melee - Quick Strike (Stalker recharge: 3s)
- Kinetic Melee - Body Blow (Stalker recharge: 5s)
- Weapon Mastery - Web Grenade (Stalker recharge: 8s)
- Kinetic Melee - Smashing Blow (Stalker recharge: 7s)
- Weapon Mastery - Shuriken (Stalker recharge: 3s)
- Ninjitsu - Hide (Stalker recharge: 20s) (Toggle)
- Kinetic Melee - Burst (Stalker recharge: 15s)
- Weapon Mastery - Shuriken (Stalker recharge: 3s)
- Willpower - Rise to the Challenge (Scrapper recharge: 10s) (Toggle, Suppressed when Hidden)
- Kinetic Melee - Placate (Stalker recharge: 60s)
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Call Jounin: +15% Defense vs All, +50% Resistance vs Confuse, -2.0 Confuse Mag Protection, +200% Resistance vs Taunt, +2780% Jump Height, +249% Jump Speed, +85% Run Speed
- Ninja Blade - Gambler's Cut (Stalker recharge: 3s)
- Ninja Blade - Sting of the Wasp (Stalker recharge: 5s)
- Weapon Mastery - Web Grenade (Stalker recharge: 8s)
- Ninja Blade - Divine Avalanche (Stalker recharge: 3s)
- Weapon Mastery - Shuriken (Stalker recharge: 3s)
- Ninjitsu - Hide (Stalker recharge: 20s) (Toggle)
- Ninja Blade - Flashing Steel (Stalker recharge: 6s)
- Weapon Mastery - Shuriken (Stalker recharge: 3s)
- Willpower - Rise to the Challenge (Scrapper recharge: 10s) (Toggle, Suppressed when Hidden)
- Ninja Blade - Placate (Stalker recharge: 60s)
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Oni: +15% Defense vs All, +15% Resistance vs Smash/Lethal, +30% Resistance vs Fire, +50% Resistance vs Confuse, -2.0 Confuse Mag Protection, +200% Resistance vs Taunt, +2780% Jump Height, +249% Jump Speed, +85% Run Speed
- Fire Assault - Flares (Dominator recharge: 3s)
- Fire Control - Ring of Fire (Dominator recharge: 4s)
- Thermal Radiation - Cauterize (Corruptor recharge: 4s)
- Fire Blast - Fire Ball (Corruptor recharge: 16s)
- Fire Control - Fire Cages (Dominator recharge: 8s)
- Ninjitsu - Hide (Stalker recharge: 20s) (Toggle)
- Fire Control - Char (Dominator recharge: 8s)
- Fire Blast - Rain of Fire (Corruptor recharge: 60s)
- Fire Aura - Rise of the Phoenix (self only) (Brute recharge: 300s)
- Thermal Radiation - Power of the Phoenix (Dead Genin and Dead Jounin only) (Corruptor recharge: 300s)
- Martial Arts - Placate (Stalker recharge: 60s)
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The basic idea here is to redesign Ninja Pets using not only more up-to-date powerset choices, but also to reorient their "control" factor around a property which aids their penchant for melee, rather than harming it. That property is ... Immobilize.
The #1 problem for Ninjas, currently on the LIVE servers is ... Knockback(s) and Fear. Any time Ninjas do Knockback, or have to deal with Fear on Foes, they must give chase ... which damages not only their Damage Throughput, but also their Survival Rate (since the Hostiles are living longer than they otherwise would). Unfortunately, Knockback is supplied by both Genin and Jounin on LIVE, in the forms of Crane Kick and Golden Dragonfly ... and Fear is supplied by Caltrops and Rain of Fire, both of which are AoE attacks, rather than single target.
The above Powers Plan for Ninjas changes that by focusing early, and heavily, on Immobilize powers. Every Ninja, at summoning, has a single target Immobilize power (Web Grenade and Ring of Fire). This is done specifically to prevent Runners (which in the case of Ninjas promote cascading, if not catastrophic, loss of aggro control!), but also to deal with Flyers so as to mitigate one of the major flaws in the 3D Pathing Algorithms driving Pet AI Movements ... the "I can't figure out how to jump UP to attack!" problem.
Note that this switch from having Shuriken at initial Summoning to having Web Grenade not only conforms to the more "typical" progression for player ATs who take the Weapon Mastery Pool, but also better "prompts" the Pet AI to close to Melee Range when Genin and Jounin can better apply their more damaging attacks, rather than just hanging back at range.
Note also that Oni has had ALL of his Melee powers deleted in this build plan. Oni should not only have no NEED to enter into Melee Range ... he should also have no DESIRE to enter into Melee Range. Hence, all of Oni's attack powers have been chosen as Ranged Attacks. Unfortuntately, until the Pet AI gets fixed so it no longer DEMANDS that Pets run into Melee Range to use their non-existent Brawl attack (and get killed for no good reason), the options to FORCE Oni to actually STAY at range are sadly ... limited.
Also note that this build plan for Ninjas includes Hide for every Pet at Train Ninjas (Level 6) ... rather than at Kuji-in Zen (Level 32). I mean ... c'mon ... they're supposed to be *NINJAS* for crying out loud
Who ever heard of a Ninja who can't Hide? Ninja Masterminds should not be FORCED into taking Grant Invisibility so that their Ninjas Pets can actually *Ninja* through missions undetected, if the player didn't select Storm Summoning as their Secondary.Baseline Defenses/Resistances/Protections at Summoning has been increased for all Ninjas, with additional Defensive/Resistance/Protection Buffs gained for Train Ninjas and Kuji-in Zen. Ninjas should be at least *somewhat* survivable without being FORCED to resort to taking either the Force Field or Storm Summoning secondaries in order to give them even minimal survivability potential.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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You're not weird, I just think you have a very specific advantage with the secondary and PPP you chose. Caltrops and RoF (and the scattering they cause along with Crane Kick) aren't as useful to me as a /Pain - and a future /Field (or possibly /Heat or /Chill) Mastery - mastermind|
Originally Posted by anonymoose
Maybe I'm weird, but my ninja/poison/mace does a large fraction of her damage via caltrops and rain of fire.
I open with the slow cone and follow with the web immob aoe. 2 sets of caltrops and a RoF can lay down a lot of damage. Now often the target dies almost immediately which is a waste but on an ITF or something the DoT can be significant. The nictus ambush has a lot of hard targets packed tightly together, or the nictus dudes guarding the shards packed tightly in those tiny rooms. |
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
The above Powers Plan for Ninjas changes that by focusing early, and heavily, on Immobilize powers.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Note that this switch from having Shuriken at initial Summoning to having Web Grenade not only conforms to the more "typical" progression for player ATs who take the Weapon Mastery Pool, but also better "prompts" the Pet AI to close to Melee Range when Genin and Jounin can better apply their more damaging attacks, rather than just hanging back at range.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Also note that this build plan for Ninjas includes Hide for every Pet at Train Ninjas (Level 6) ... rather than at Kuji-in Zen (Level 32). I mean ... c'mon ... they're supposed to be *NINJAS* for crying out loud Who ever heard of a Ninja who can't Hide? Ninja Masterminds should not be FORCED into taking Grant Invisibility so that their Ninjas Pets can actually *Ninja* through missions undetected, if the player didn't select Storm Summoning as their Secondary.
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I do like your suggestions overall, but I think a huge problem is that you've given out too many powers. Ninjas currently have 7.3 powers each (fully upgraded), second only to Mercenaries at 7.7 (the lowest are Bots at 5.3), but your new Ninjas have a massive 10.3. You need to drop at 2-3 powers each to retain some balance with the other powersets
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On Live, the balance of powers (not including Super Leap, Hide or Placate) is:|
Originally Posted by evertheskeptic
I do like your suggestions overall, but I think a huge problem is that you've given out too many powers. Ninjas currently have 7.3 powers each (fully upgraded), second only to Mercenaries at 7.7 (the lowest are Bots at 5.3), but your new Ninjas have a massive 10.3. You need to drop at 2-3 powers each to retain some balance with the other powersets
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Genin: (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 target AoE) = 6
Jounin: (2 melee, 1 target AoE) - (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 cone) = 7
Oni: (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 cone) - (1 ranged, 1 target AoE) = 7
My proposal changes that mix to be:
Genin: (2 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 PBAoE) = 8
Jounin: (2 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged) - (1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 PBAoE) = 8
Oni: (2 ranged, 1 ranged heal) - (2 target AoE) - (1 ranged, 1 target AoE, 1 self rez, 1 Genin/Jounin rez) = 9
But rather than just focusing on only the pure number of powers, take a look at how many powers of particular types there are. In this case, I'd argue that the "mix" of power types is more important than the aggregate number of powers.
LIVE:
Genin: 3 melee, 2 ranged, 1 target AoE = 6
Jounin: 4 melee, 1 ranged, 1 cone, 1 target AoE = 7
Oni: 2 melee, 3 ranged, 1 cone, 1 target AoE = 7
My proposal:
Genin: 4 melee, 3 ranged, 1 PBAoE = 8
Jounin: 4 melee, 3 ranged, 1 PBAoE = 8
Oni: 3 ranged, 3 target AoE, 1 ranged heal, 1 self rez, 1 Genin/Jounin rez) = 9
If something HAD to be dropped (for "fairness" or whatever), I'd say drop the Hide+Placate on (my proposed) Genin, Jounin and Oni.
It does go without saying though that in my personal opinion, *ALL* Melee Pets, regardless of Primary, should have 2 melee + 1 ranged attacks when summoned ... not just 1 melee + 1 ranged like we see on many melee pets now.
Likewise, *ALL* Ranged Pets, regardless of Primary, should have 2 ranged attacks + 1 additional power of some kind, when summoned. That 1 additional power can either be some sort of ranged heal/buff/debuff power or a melee attack.
This would make *ALL* Mastermind Pets "less useless" when initially summoned (and during Levels 1-5, before you get Pet Training), and generally be a good (and easy!) Quality of Life upgrade for all Masterminds. So I "get" where you're coming from ... but I'm also "looking ahead" at how to make life better for all of us ... not just for Ninja Masterminds. And you can't "get there from here" unless you propose it ... and get people thinking about it.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
The idea of adding more +defense with each Upgrade is great! This way you won't have Genins having 15% defense at lvl 1.
I think a big re-vamp of Ninja set is not going to happen. They already redesigned Genin's range attacks by getting rid of Archery.
I think the set just needs a few things:
1. Each upgrade give a small amount of +defense and +Defense Debuff Resistance. Ninjas really need defense debuff resistance. 7% on Genin is not going to cut it.
2. Oni needs the most re-design but in reality, I would do:
A. Change Fire Blast to 6s attack and make sure the AI uses this often. Adding two 2s recharge so Oni doesn't need to decide between Ring of Fire and Fire Blast. It is better to leave a little recharge gap in between each attack. Oni will have a smooth attack chain of: Ring of Fire 4s, Fire Blast 6s and Char 8s with 16s Breath.
B. I can see the dev won't get rid of Fire Swords but I really think they need to get rid of one of the Fire Swords and make it a 10s attack so it hits hard when it matters. Don't keep the 3s and 6s low recharge because that will only interfer with Oni's Ring of Fire and Char. You want Oni to use Immb and Hold often. Just look at Demon Prince. All of his attacks are 8s or higher. This way he can only use what's available rather than letting him to decide which one to use. In this case, LESS IS MORE! LESS number of attacks but with MORE QUALITY attacks.
3. Change Genin's knockback to knockdown. This will greatly reduce the risk of them chasing a knocked back foe. Believe, they can really chase!
4. Reduce recharge on Rain of Fire from 60s to 45s. The reason is that the effects of these DoT usually doesn't last its full duration. And since a pet can't summon a pet that lasts for the full duration, I think it's only logical that you let them use it more often to make up for the shorter duration. The fear effect is something unique to Ninja's soft controls. Yes, it has pros/cons but it fits Ninja style and they are useful in PvP if you like pvping in this game (I don't). I know I've cast Rain of Fire on a Robot MM once and it totally ruined his formation 'cause the pets were running away from him.
(By the way, I am surprised to find out that Jounin's Caltrops' base damage is 45 at level 1 for the full duration and Stalker's Caltrops is only 22.50. And recharge is already at 30s. I thought Jounin's caltrop is the exact copy of other Caltrops. My mistake.)
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
For giggle, Commando is about 1600 (with quite a bit of cone damage), Spec-Op is about 823 and Soldier is about 852 and Medic is about 755. Big difference eh? :P