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Actually you got that wrong.|
Originally Posted by alastar516
I know that Fire/kin is the highest damage combo for trollers, but how far behind is Plant/Kin? And then from there is it even possible to do satisfying damage on a Plant/storm?
Thanks in advance  |
Plant/Kin is much more dmg and a lot better control than Fire/Kin
Then it's Fire/Kin and Plant/Storm is very close to that. Since I can't stand /kin my main is a Plant/Storm, best toon I've played and stuck with him over other combos for a long time now.
Plant will give you Seeds which makes groups of enemies kill themselves, IOed it's up so fast you can use multiple times on one group (not that you'd need to since they die so fast). So all those Alpha strikes hit those mobs.
Then you have Creepers which is a lot more damage than Hot Feet, the only issue is they can't travel to the next group as fast as the Plant/Kin, but they'll arrive plenty fast. On top of this they accept the Fulcrum Shift buff. And recharges fast enough that you can have 2 groups worth of Creepers out killing for you (upwards to around 10ish). Since they are Pseudo pets they have their own power list. They come with a lot of extra control and well as they spawn briars on dead bodies which keeps doing damage to mobs alive near it.
Then you have your Flytrap. While he's not 3 like the fire guys, he's stronger. He casts holds, immobs, and aoe thorns.
The base damage for plant is higher, this is because the resis are more readil available, but you're a kin so doesn't matter. I think the aoe immob has a smaller radius than fire cages, but that's a boon in my opinion, less agro of other nearby mobs and is fast casting you can easily lockdown everyone. And you get a ranged version of Cinders (aoe hold) which is great to use on the rare times Seeds doesn't land properly. On top of that all those abilities can proc the Reactive Radial t4 quite a lot (with the change not as sick as it used to be--Creepers and freezing rain on my P/S would decimate groups)
Plant/Storms. /Storm as a lot more fun to me in my opinion than /kin. A lot of goodies and useful powers. Playing along side many completely IOed /Kins I have killed groups just as fast in many cases, or at times faster. They are not played NEARLY as much as /kins, and since there are so many /kins out there, you will group with them a lot. When a /kin and /storm group up things get very very scary for mobs. It's basically instant death for mobs, and multiple groups aren't an issue. Hurricaine is a gem that many people misuse a lot. Also your strength isn't based off the amount of mobs you can drain. It's all about your playstyle though. Aside from Fulcrum Shift, Transfusion, and whatever the end drain is called, the rest of the set is 'meh' to me.
Hope this helps.
TL;DR
Plant/Kin > Fire/Kin ~= Plant/Storm
Sun, if the fire/kin can move on to the next group faster than a plant/kin, wouldn't that make the fire/ have more dps?
I don't like /kin either. I do run with a pack of Fire/Rads weekly [anyone welcome, Freedom, Talos dirt hill, Mon 8pC] and the AM stacked makes us insane. I have a really good respect for fire. Plant is right there behind, and has the benefit on teams of a better, easier to quickly evaluate animation for holds and immobs. This helps hte other team mates.
/Kin and /Storm couldn't be more different. They can't even be compared except both have a ranged heal. You need to roll both and at least get to 35 to see what each is like. I've never gotten a /Kin out of the 20s. I have a /Storm at 43 and a /Rad at 50.
Not the fastest, but really fun, I'd have to recommend putting ill/ with /Storm.
I have a purped out Plant/Kin and Fire/Kin and have experimented with many different IO combinations to try and min/max each. I'd have to say the Fire/Kin edges out the Plant/Kin .. mostly due to an easier attack chain and not having to position and move around mobs so much. Plant has some great crowd control powers but they are cones and I do much more button mashing and positioning when farming with my Plant/Kin. However, Plant/Kin does have a better survivability edge, largely due to SOC(especially when 6-slotted with 60 Coercive Persuasions, including the confusion proc). I could manage the mobs faster and safer with Plant but Fire has more DPS and required less effort(FS + hot feet ftw) for easy farming.
If you want more damage and ease of use, go Fire... if you want a fun toon that manages mobs well but requires a bit more effort to crank out the damage, go Plant.
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Until proven otherwise, the best farm times for controllers come from Fire/kins. For me Plant works best with debuffing sets so I would pair it with /storm, or /ta. I just hit 50 on my Plant/storm and it's one of the most fun rides I had to 50.
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
Actually you got that wrong.
Plant/Kin is much more dmg |
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I SS to every group and I've yet to not have my Creepers show up in time to do significant DPS to the next group. I'm not sure how Creeper travel works, if they actually travel, or just spawn onto the next group you start attacking.|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
Sun, if the fire/kin can move on to the next group faster than a plant/kin, wouldn't that make the fire/ have more dps?
/Kin and /Storm couldn't be more different. They can't even be compared except both have a ranged heal. You need to roll both and at least get to 35 to see what each is like. I've never gotten a /Kin out of the 20s. I have a /Storm at 43 and a /Rad at 50. Not the fastest, but really fun, I'd have to recommend putting ill/ with /Storm. |
Also that's why I love my Plant/Storm so much, /kin and /storm are nothing alike. Which also is the reason they are so deadly together.
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I have a purped out Plant/Kin and Fire/Kin and have experimented with many different IO combinations to try and min/max each. I'd have to say the Fire/Kin edges out the Plant/Kin .. mostly due to an easier attack chain and not having to position and move around mobs so much. Plant has some great crowd control powers but they are cones and I do much more button mashing and positioning when farming with my Plant/Kin. However, Plant/Kin does have a better survivability edge, largely due to SOC(especially when 6-slotted with 60 Coercive Persuasions, including the confusion proc). I could manage the mobs faster and safer with Plant but Fire has more DPS and required less effort(FS + hot feet ftw) for easy farming. If you want more damage and ease of use, go Fire... if you want a fun toon that manages mobs well but requires a bit more effort to crank out the damage, go Plant. |
As far as positioning, it's not more harder to SoC than getting in middle of a group to cinders. I never have any problems getting SoC on mobs due to positioning (now buggy no hits, straggler mobs being no where near the main gruop, or misses are different story).
Don't get to see too many Plant/Kins play, but in every instance I have, they've edged out Fire/... Not sure how the chain is harder to set up either.
Instead of choosing a center mob to flashfire off of, choose a front center mob to cone seeds off of. Which then makes mobs alpha each other and continue to attack. Even if all they got off was the alpha, that's significant (gotta remember with the -dmg and recharge from /kin they won't be doing as much dmg or as fast as a plant/storm SoC on them).
Instead of a toggle that can be mezzed off if you aren't protected, you have a targettable cast for Creepers. Not only do you have briars that do constant dmg, but you have creepers doing constant damage WITH RANGE, they move and can attack stray mobs that would get out your hotfeet range, and they can be buffed by your FS.
Instead of being in middle of mobs to make sure cinders hits everyone, you can stand at range and use vines.
Those are the 3 differences really. The other powers are pretty much similar. You could add bonfire to fire, but don't know anyone who does.
While I never had a fire/kin at high lvl, my main for a long time was a Fire/Rad, so I am very familiar with fire/ playstyle. Really though it comes to personal preference to which style you like more. Plant is much safer, though. Personally I think it's easier to get my abilities off as Plant/ than when I was Fire/.
Also your buffed Creepers and Flytrap can decimate a group while you move on to the next group.
EDIT: Also does anyone know if Creeper can benefit from speed boost? If so with the new group buff change coming out, this is a significant boost in power to a plant/kin.
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The answer is a little from Column A and a little from Column B.|
Originally Posted by Sunpulse
I SS to every group and I've yet to not have my Creepers show up in time to do significant DPS to the next group. I'm not sure how Creeper travel works, if they actually travel, or just spawn onto the next group you start attacking.
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You have an invisible pet which follows you around for 2 minutes. He sporadically (every 10 seconds) has a 50% chance of generating a Vine beside any living enemy nearby. Vines last 15 seconds.
Every 10 seconds he will also create a Patch on any body nearby which does an AOE attack quite like a mini-roots (8 foot radius, around 27 points of damage at 50).
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Prior to Tuesday's patch, I clocked my Plant/Storm at a hair over 3M inf/min in a fire ambush farm in AE @ +4/x8/with bosses. I have not seen any Fire/Kin numbers for comparison, but the top-end SS/FA brute numbers were around 3.0 - 3.5 M inf/min.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Until proven otherwise, the best farm times for controllers come from Fire/kins. For me Plant works best with debuffing sets so I would pair it with /storm, or /ta. I just hit 50 on my Plant/storm and it's one of the most fun rides I had to 50.
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Since the patch, my best has been 1.9 M inf/min. I definitely can't handle +4 ambushes with bosses anymore.
Anyone mind sharing their inf/min rates for Fire/Kin and Plant/Kin?
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
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>>>> On my Fire/Kin, I'd have the next mob mostly dead by the time Creepers would show up vs. when farming with my Plant/Kin. You must be on a map with tightly packed mobs.|
Originally Posted by Sunpulse
I SS to every group and I've yet to not have my Creepers show up in time to do significant DPS to the next group. I'm not sure how Creeper travel works, if they actually travel, or just spawn onto the next group you start attacking..
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
You have both so have a better outlook on comparison, but the points you make are situational or opinion base..
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
As far as positioning, it's not more harder to SoC than getting in middle of a group to cinders. I never have any problems getting SoC on mobs due to positioning (now buggy no hits, straggler mobs being no where near the main gruop, or misses are different story)..
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>>>>SOC has a huge cone so behaves almost like an aoe... not a good comparator. Try Roots, which has a narrower cone and is pain to get correctly positioned so I can spam damage on the whole mob. I prefer if SOC does not cause most damage so spam all other attacks as fast as possible, especially Roots.
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
Don't get to see too many Plant/Kins play, but in every instance I have, they've edged out Fire/... Not sure how the chain is harder to set up either..
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
Instead of choosing a center mob to flashfire off of, choose a front center mob to cone seeds off of. Which then makes mobs alpha each other and continue to attack. Even if all they got off was the alpha, that's significant (gotta remember with the -dmg and recharge from /kin they won't be doing as much dmg or as fast as a plant/storm SoC on them)..
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
Instead of a toggle that can be mezzed off if you aren't protected, you have a targettable cast for Creepers. Not only do you have briars that do constant dmg, but you have creepers doing constant damage WITH RANGE, they move and can attack stray mobs that would get out your hotfeet range, and they can be buffed by your FS.
Instead of being in middle of mobs to make sure cinders hits everyone, you can stand at range and use vines. Those are the 3 differences really. The other powers are pretty much similar. You could add bonfire to fire, but don't know anyone who does.. |
2)Creepers are NOT constant damage if you are moving quickly from mob to mob
3) Vines require good positioning to hit the whiole mob vs. jumping into the middle of the mob and standing there while FS'd Hot Feet works it's magic. Additionally, to maximize Roots damage, you have to 1st get near the mob or in the mob, hit FS, then back up to position your cone. Bleh, I prefer jumping in once and staying there.
Not sure which of your "differences" prove your point.
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
While I never had a fire/kin at high lvl, my main for a long time was a Fire/Rad, so I am very familiar with fire/ playstyle. Really though it comes to personal preference to which style you like more. Plant is much safer, though. Personally I think it's easier to get my abilities off as Plant/ than when I was Fire/.
Also your buffed Creepers and Flytrap can decimate a group while you move on to the next group. |
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Originally Posted by Sunpulse
EDIT: Also does anyone know if Creeper can benefit from speed boost? If so with the new group buff change coming out, this is a significant boost in power to a plant/kin.
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EDIT: I stand corrected. Just saw the below...
Group Area Buffs: To make buffing easier for Teams and Leagues, these buff powers now affect all the eligible characters within a 30-foot-radius around the targeted character. (Previously, you had to target and buff each individual character to use these powers.)
Cold Domination (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Ice Shield and Glacial Shield
Force Field (Defenders, Controllers, Masterminds): Deflection Shield and Insulation Shield
Kinetics (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Increase Density and Speed Boost
Sonic Resonance (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Sonic Barrier and Sonic Haven
Thermal Radiation (Controllers, Corruptors, Masterminds): Fire Shield and Plasma Shield
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Seeds of Confusion is a cone. Vines, Roots, and Spore Burst are all Targetted AOE -- and should all work just fine while standing in the middle of a spawn.|
Originally Posted by Dreadman;36586433)
Vines require good positioning to hit the whiole mob vs. jumping into the middle of the mob and standing there while FS'd Hot Feet works it's magic. Additionally, to maximize Roots damage, you have to 1st get near the mob or in the mob, hit FS, then back up to position your cone. Bleh, I prefer jumping in once and staying there.
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If using Seeds to blunt the alpha strike, then I imagine your power sequence would be:
- approach mob, target one foe, hit seeds
- jump in, hit fulcrum shift
- ???
- profit!
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
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While post patch numbers will get altered, I will point out that even if there is a farming rate difference in the top end builds it's small in the grand scheme of things. One build generates 3-3.5 in a minute. One does it at 2.8-3.3 in a minute. Both are cranking out farms at a brisk pace.
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Originally Posted by Mezzosoprano
Prior to Tuesday's patch, I clocked my Plant/Storm at a hair over 3M inf/min in a fire ambush farm in AE @ +4/x8/with bosses. I have not seen any Fire/Kin numbers for comparison, but the top-end SS/FA brute numbers were around 3.0 - 3.5 M inf/min.
Since the patch, my best has been 1.9 M inf/min. I definitely can't handle +4 ambushes with bosses anymore. |
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The comparison was about openers. So not a bad comparison at all.|
Originally Posted by Dreadman
>>>>SOC has a huge cone so behaves almost like an aoe... not a good comparator. Try Roots, which has a narrower cone and is pain to get correctly positioned so I can spam damage on the whole mob. I prefer if SOC does not cause most damage so spam all other attacks as fast as possible, especially Roots.
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Originally Posted by Dreadman
>>> SOC is great for alpha control but you still need to do a good chunk of damage outside of SOC to get good infl or exp. Not sure where you are getting the -recgh on the mob, last I checked Siphon Speed only hit one target. The -dmg helps somewhat, but it's still only about -20%... if u are able to stack FS on the same mob, then you are killing to slow.
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Originally Posted by Dreadman
1) My toggles getting mezzed off were never a factor for either my Fire/Kin or Plant/Kin. I had enough +recharge from my IO'd builds and using the Psy Epic(on both toons) had perma Indominitable Will.
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Originally Posted by Dreadman
2)Creepers are NOT constant damage if you are moving quickly from mob to mob
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Originally Posted by Dreadman
3) Vines require good positioning to hit the whiole mob vs. jumping into the middle of the mob and standing there while FS'd Hot Feet works it's magic. Additionally, to maximize Roots damage, you have to 1st get near the mob or in the mob, hit FS, then back up to position your cone. Bleh, I prefer jumping in once and staying there.
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Originally Posted by Dreadman
Not sure which of your "differences" prove your point.
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Speed Boost is single target.. not sure I'd want to SB each of my Creepers.. would have next mob killed by time I finished. NOw, Inertial Reduction affectin Creeprs as an AOE... Imagine Creepers flying through the air and landing on the next mob with ya. :-) You make good points, many are ones I also considered when trying to figure out which of my /Kins would be better for farming. FWIW, I'm more likely to play Plant anything when teaming, especially my favorite toon, a Plant/Fire dom.
EDIT: I stand corrected. Just saw the below...
Group Area Buffs: To make buffing easier for Teams and Leagues, these buff powers now affect all the eligible characters within a 30-foot-radius around the targeted character. (Previously, you had to target and buff each individual character to use these powers.)
Cold Domination (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Ice Shield and Glacial Shield
Force Field (Defenders, Controllers, Masterminds): Deflection Shield and Insulation Shield
Kinetics (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Increase Density and Speed Boost
Sonic Resonance (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors): Sonic Barrier and Sonic Haven
Thermal Radiation (Controllers, Corruptors, Masterminds): Fire Shield and Plasma Shield[/QUOTE]
I gotta give Plant/Storm its props for being fun, and powerful, and probably my favourite character i've created.
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Agreed. My Plant/Storm is by far my favorite character. Fire/Kin is great for farming, but the plant/storm is the more versatile toon.
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Originally Posted by kangaroo120y
I gotta give Plant/Storm its props for being fun, and powerful, and probably my favourite character i've created.
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Agreed. Plant/Storm may not be the absolute pinnacle of min/max optimum efficiency for farmin on a cherry picked map, but it's a lot more flexible and has much better survivability when things go wrong.
And
It's a lot more fun IMO/E 
.
Being able to jump into a mission at +2/+8 at level 40+ and know that that I CAN clear the map (some mobs much slower than others) is really a lot of fun. I also find that I both have and use more different combinations of powers on Plant/Storm than I do with other builds. It's much more fun to play as you don't always use the same exact sequence of button mashing again and again.
Viri has been built on a shoestring budget (just the inf she has earned, and without spending a ton of time playing the markets) and she's up to about 76.25 global +rech. Kin crash is dirt cheap to buy and craft, probably the best bang for buck set out there if you're building for +rech on a budget.
Eventually I may buy some purps etc for her, but I'm having too much fun just PLAYING her, and she's only 46th ATM so she's got a bit to go till Incarnate becomes an issue.
Have to say, Plant/Storm REALLY starts to bloom with higher +rech!
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You should try her on the Axis map at x8 ( one of the PI arcs ). Nothing can plow through those guys like a Plant/Storm. I could kick myself for completing that misson.
| Agreed. Plant/Storm may not be the absolute pinnacle of min/max optimum efficiency for farmin on a cherry picked map, but it's a lot more flexible and has much better survivability when things go wrong. |
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Heh. 'Satisfying' doesn't even begin to describe the damage on a Plant/Stormie. I could barely even play controllers before I created him, and now, well... heh. There's a certain addictive quality to it. Then again, it's a very very different playstyle; Plant/Storm does what I tend to call the killbox. Pick your spawn, Confuse-Creepers-Roots-Freezing Rain-Tornado-Thunderstorm-Point and Laugh.
As an aside, Tornado is also a wonderfully nasty little toy- if you've Rooted something, or they're already resistant to KB, it'll eat the poor bugger.
*shrug* I guess it all boils down to playstyle- I'm not sure I like the /kin method of buffing-off-enemies, but I sure do love chewing up entire spawns as a plant/storm. And it's rather safe, especially with Indomitable Will- accidentally aggroing 3 +0/x8 spawns is more of a "huh, maybe I should pop a purple or two" moment than an "ohcrapohcrapohcrap I'm going to DIE!" moment (depending on the enemy group, of course) 
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Go Plant/Kin. It's safer and the dmg is almost the same but it's a bit more clickier. A Plant/Kin farming does most of his dmg with roots and his Epic than he does with CC or Trap. Fulcrum and vines is a beautiful thing. Plus SOC is up almost every mob. Proc that baby out as well!
With the "convenience" buff in SB, how big does that impact a plant/kin? I've never played a plant controller so I'm curious if the creepers would be able to keep up with the farmer once they are SB'ed.
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Pets do not receive the benefit of the Recharge buff. Not sure if the speed will be affected, as currently Creepers cannot be targetted.
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Originally Posted by Deathless
With the "convenience" buff in SB, how big does that impact a plant/kin? I've never played a plant controller so I'm curious if the creepers would be able to keep up with the farmer once they are SB'ed.
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Thanks LM, it would be interesting to see if the creepers get the SB buff when I target the fly trap.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Pets do not receive the benefit of the Recharge buff. Not sure if the speed will be affected, as currently Creepers cannot be targetted.
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Uh, what? What changed with this patch?
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Originally Posted by Mezzosoprano
Prior to Tuesday's patch, I clocked my Plant/Storm at a hair over 3M inf/min in a fire ambush farm in AE @ +4/x8/with bosses. I have not seen any Fire/Kin numbers for comparison, but the top-end SS/FA brute numbers were around 3.0 - 3.5 M inf/min.
Since the patch, my best has been 1.9 M inf/min. I definitely can't handle +4 ambushes with bosses anymore. Anyone mind sharing their inf/min rates for Fire/Kin and Plant/Kin? |
Dang....one of my sgmates has a Plant/Kin and has it all IO'ed out and was telling me how he loves it.
I love the Kinetics set no doubt about that (my main is a Kinetics/Rad. Def.)...so was somewhat tempted to make a Plant/Kin.
But....now with the talk of Plant/Storm....ugh...I like the Storm set too....love the Lightning Storm power....and now with the lightning cloud/path aura....aaarghh....too many toons to incarnate out already! I don't want to make another toon.....
But if I did....how about a build for a Plant/Storm? 
Edit: I'd want (for a Plant/Storm) to be rchg. heavy of course....but...would like to be soft-capped to S/L dmg at the least (45% not the 'new' 59% for iTrials)....my sgmate said his Plant/Kin is S/L cap'ed....*shrugs*
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Somewhere in there you'll want end reduc even if it comes via the alpha slot, or somewhere else. /storm is end heavy anyway. Plant certainly doesn't help. CC has an end cost of 26.
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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Edit: I'd want (for a Plant/Storm) to be rchg. heavy of course....but...would like to be soft-capped to S/L dmg at the least (45% not the 'new' 59% for iTrials)....my sgmate said his Plant/Kin is S/L cap'ed....*shrugs*
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Last week's patch changed how the Reactive Interface DoT proc works in psuedo-pets (FR, CC, Ice Storm, etc). Prior to the change, the damage proc had a chance to fire against every target in the aoe on every tick of damage from these powers. This was clearly a bit over-the-top, as I could clear spawns of +4s with just FR....|
Originally Posted by Zandock
Uh, what? What changed with this patch?
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Now these powers can only trigger the proc once per 10 seconds and can only hit one target. The one-target limit is a bug that will (hopefully) get fixed sooner rather than later.
Prior to the patch, I was clearing +4/x8/with boss spawns easily. From the HeroStats logs, the Reactive DoT was contributing over 50% of my total damage. Reducing that overpowered AOE goodness really dropped my maximum earning rate.
Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
I know that Fire/kin is the highest damage combo for trollers, but how far behind is Plant/Kin? And then from there is it even possible to do satisfying damage on a Plant/storm?
Thanks in advance