Quote:
In a sense you're doing the math wrong, yes. You're not 0.4 seconds off, you're only 1.622 - 1.452 = 0.17 seconds off. In an attack chain, you need to use Arcanatime as the cast time, not the normal cast times. Options -> Effects & Maths -> Use AracanaTime for Animation Times.|
Originally Posted by Pampl
I've read that the best attack chain for DB is BF>AS>SS>AS but I can't figure out how to get the recharge on AS down low enough for it to work. Even with Quickness and Haste and +90% global recharge the chain would be more like: BF > AS > SS > .4s pause > AS > BF > .4s pause > AS ..etc. Am I doing the maths wrong? Is there some other trick I'm missing?
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To close that gap further, go into the incarnate powers and grab Spiritual Core Paragon. Now you're only 1.477 - 1.452 = 0.025 seconds off. That's perfectly fine, though you can of course continue fiddling with the build to get more recharge.
With Spiritual Core Paragon, the third slot in Hasten is almost completely consumed by ED: 109.4 seconds vs. 111.15 seconds. And since it doesn't stack, even that small difference is really no difference. There's a slot you can save.
Swap the Panacea set into Health for more regeneration. Use a Performance Shifter proc instead of the endurance modification in Physical Perfection.
It's not going to do you any good to use the top DPS chain when you haven't even slotted Blinding Feint for damage. People with regular old boring attack chains could probably outdamage you. You don't need to hit buff and barely need extra recharge in that power, so you're really slotting the wrong things.
Instead of the Obliteration proc in Sweeping Strike, consider the Fury of the Gladiator proc.
Why even take Vengeful Slice and One Thousand Cuts if you're not going to slot them properly? Take something that's useful with only a slot or two, like Conserve Power, which you're almost certainly going to need to keep that attack chain going for long. Plus, with all that global recharge, Conserve Power gives much more endurance to your build than to most builds. Pick up the Miracle unique while you're at it. Maybe Assault for the other pick, which is fine with an endurance reduction in the default slot. If you want the top DPS chain, you might as well go for it.
Consider a Kismet unique. Yeah, you have Focused Accuracy available, and Blinding Feint is a buff, but it still makes me nervous. Probably my personal hang up, though. I feel like I can never have too much accuracy. (Edit: Yes, I know this is inconsistent with my advice on Blinding Feint. The point there is that other things, like slotting your attacks for damage, are even more important.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Some thoughts I had on this matter which might be of interest:
The top DB attack chain with about 350% total recharge has the same DPS as the top Katana attack chain. At this point the only advantage you have over Katana is the extra damage bonus from Blinding Feint, which can help if you have a damage aura. SR however, does not. You can get more recharge to lower the downtime on Ablating Strike for more DPS, but Katana can get damage bonuses which will be more effective considering the superior base damage of the attack chain.
So for a top-end SR, Katana with Musculature will give you more DPS than DB with Spiritual. This means that you might be better off getting damage bonuses on DB than going for a seamless attack chain.
Here's the build I made for comparison:
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Quote:
However, the top Dual Blades attack chain includes a much wider cone than Golden Dragonfly, so is likely better for tearing up crowds. But if we start bringing AoE damage into it, I suppose all bets are off.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
So for a top-end SR, Katana with Musculature will give you more DPS than DB with Spiritual.
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And since you don't need Divine Avalanche on a Super Reflexes, I'd think Fire would do more than Katana at the top end. Strange thing is, I've never actually checked.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Thanks for all the advice! I'll try to fix the build in accordance with your advice, except for a couple things I have questions about:
Quote:
Does BF's damage really contribute that much to overall DPS? I had assumed it was mostly contributing via its damage buff.|
Originally Posted by Werner
It's not going to do you any good to use the top DPS chain when you haven't even slotted Blinding Feint for damage.
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Quote:
| Why even take Vengeful Slice and One Thousand Cuts if you're not going to slot them properly? |
To both you and Auraxis: with all the sacrifices required to reach BF > AS > SS > AS, would it be better to stick with second best and go BF > Attack Vitals? I could get damage bonuses instead of some of the recharge bonuses and use Musculature instead of Spiritual. Would it still be weaker? Just doing back-of-the-envelope, unenhanced-damage calculations I get 56.6 DPS for the combo chain vs 68 DPS for the other, meaning the combo's damage would have to be multiplied by ~6/5ths what the latter chain is multiplied by. The latter has ~150% bonus damage (once BF gets slotted for damage the same as the others), meaning 250% normal damage, so the combo need to pick up 50% more in damage bonus. After Musculature I'd need 20 percentage points more of bonus.. is this doable? Does this math check out?
edit: Just realized I forgot to take into account AV's dot. It's pretty piddly but every little bit counts!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Werner
However, the top Dual Blades attack chain includes a much wider cone than Golden Dragonfly, so is likely better for tearing up crowds. But if we start bringing AoE damage into it, I suppose all bets are off.
And since you don't need Divine Avalanche on a Super Reflexes, I'd think Fire would do more than Katana at the top end. Strange thing is, I've never actually checked. |
For AoE, Katana still has Flashing Steel and Lotus while DB only has one other AoE attack aside from Sweep, which loses its effectiveness once your recharge is up.
As for DA, it's useful while leveling up, exemping down, and on incarnate content, so it's not really that useless.
I believe that once Katana gets the procs going(purples and -res) it has better ST DPS than Fiery Melee, though it's mostly Lethal damage.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Here's my money-is-no-object DB/SR dream build. Gapless, unless Mid's is lying to me.
No 1kcuts, but I guess you could swap out vengeful strike, moving Hasten down. You'd lose the option to fall back on BF-AV for exemp purposes if you did that, though. And I think you do more AoE spamming BF-TE-SS over and over than chaining BF-1kcuts.
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Quote:
I believe that at perma hasten levels of recharge the top chain is better than the combo, but I don't know at what exact recharge point the top chain becomes better.
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Originally Posted by Pampl
To both you and Auraxis: with all the sacrifices required to reach BF > AS > SS > AS, would it be better to stick with second best and go BF > Attack Vitals? I could get damage bonuses instead of some of the recharge bonuses and use Musculature instead of Spiritual. Would it still be weaker? Just doing back-of-the-envelope, unenhanced-damage calculations I get 56.6 DPS for the combo chain vs 68 DPS for the other, meaning the combo's damage would have to be multiplied by ~6/5ths what the latter chain is multiplied by. The latter has ~150% bonus damage (once BF gets slotted for damage the same as the others), meaning 250% normal damage, so the combo need to pick up 50% more in damage bonus. After Musculature I'd need 20 percentage points more of bonus.. is this doable? Does this math check out?
edit: Just realized I forgot to take into account AV's dot. It's pretty piddly but every little bit counts! |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
If you switch out Spiritual for Musculature with that build you end up with more DPS, though your self heals won't be as effective.
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Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly
Here's my money-is-no-object DB/SR dream build. Gapless, unless Mid's is lying to me.
No 1kcuts, but I guess you could swap out vengeful strike, moving Hasten down. You'd lose the option to fall back on BF-AV for exemp purposes if you did that, though. And I think you do more AoE spamming BF-TE-SS over and over than chaining BF-1kcuts. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Despite not having a seamless chain? That's... very interesting.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
If you switch out Spiritual for Musculature with that build you end up with more DPS, though your self heals won't be as effective.
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Quote:
Katana and Dual Blades both have the same number of AoE's available to them.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
For AoE, Katana still has Flashing Steel and Lotus while DB only has one other AoE attack aside from Sweep, which loses its effectiveness once your recharge is up.
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Katana has 2 cones - Golden Dragonfly and Flashing Steel and one PBAoE - Lotus Drops.
Dual Blades has 2 cones - Thousand Cuts and Sweeping Strike and one PBAoE - Typhoon's Edge.
Katana has one wide cone (FS, ~180degree) and one narrow cone (GD ~45degree). Dual Blades has two 90 degree cones, so sort of middling in area, but if things get hit by one, they're likely to get hit by the other.
So I'm either misunderstanding your statement, or you forgot about one of DB's AoE's
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
Quote:
Eh, you're right, or at least half right. Looking more closely, it looks to me like it's probably a difference of a bit over 10 DPS, and you're probably as a result splitting the difference between the top chain and the low/medium recharge chain. So missing the damage enhancement is indeed not as bad as I thought, but still, if 10 DPS isn't important to you, then why is the top chain important to you? Also, why wouldn't you slot damage in there? It's trivial to do so. You don't need that much recharge at all, and the to hit isn't all that critical, and could be partially addressed with a Kismet unique if there's a concern. Even if you love your slotting, you could at least replace the two straight accuracies with a couple Nucleolus to pick up SOME damage.|
Originally Posted by Pampl
Does BF's damage really contribute that much to overall DPS? I had assumed it was mostly contributing via its damage buff.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pampl
For combos. I don't expect to use them much but they're nice to have. I didn't see a reason to treat VS, PS, 1KC and TE as attacks, rather than just parts of Sweep and Attack Vitals, when I'd always have a better attack up.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pampl
with all the sacrifices required to reach BF > AS > SS > AS, would it be better to stick with second best and go BF > Attack Vitals? I could get damage bonuses instead of some of the recharge bonuses and use Musculature instead of Spiritual. Would it still be weaker?
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But you don't really have to compromise damage bonuses for recharge bonuses. Here's an ancient build at 202.5% global recharge running the top chain nearly gapless without Spiritual and with a 32.5% global damage buff from sets and Assault. The main problem with this build, as with yours, is endurance recovery. Probably a lot of ways to address that these days. Cardiac would handle it. Probably dropping Darkness Mastery in favor of Conserve Power, Physical Perfection and Spiritual would be even better. And maybe Musculature would make up for the missing damage if we swapped some damage for endurance reduction. I should note that this is NOT intended as a finished build. It's just my "DPS Template Build" adapted very quickly for that particular Dual Blades chain. I was trying to use as similar a build as possible across a number of primaries to get an idea what top end DPS looked like when comparing apples to apples. None of them were endurance sustainable, which I consider important in a top end build. And none were optimized around the specific primary, or around survivability. But maybe there are some ideas in there. The main thing is to show that you don't need to sacrifice global damage bonuses for global recharge. You can get both at once.
Code:
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
You're right, I did forget about Thousand Cuts. Its horrendously long animation time is such a turn-off for me I forgot about it entirely.|
Originally Posted by Canine
Katana and Dual Blades both have the same number of AoE's available to them.
Katana has 2 cones - Golden Dragonfly and Flashing Steel and one PBAoE - Lotus Drops. Dual Blades has 2 cones - Thousand Cuts and Sweeping Strike and one PBAoE - Typhoon's Edge. Katana has one wide cone (FS, ~180degree) and one narrow cone (GD ~45degree). Dual Blades has two 90 degree cones, so sort of middling in area, but if things get hit by one, they're likely to get hit by the other. So I'm either misunderstanding your statement, or you forgot about one of DB's AoE's |
I'll take FS over those two for AoE personally.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
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Quote:
That's 20 degrees, not 45, which makes a very big difference. Sweeping strike also shows better base dpa than Golden Dragonfly, not factoring in the buildup/blinding feint difference. I like both sets a lot, but in my opinion DB has better AoE.|
Originally Posted by Canine
Katana... and one narrow cone (GD ~45degree).
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Quote:
| You're right, I did forget about Thousand Cuts. Its horrendously long animation time is such a turn-off for me I forgot about it entirely. |
Quote:
| I believe that once Katana gets the procs going(purples and -res) it has better ST DPS than Fiery Melee, though it's mostly Lethal damage. |
On the topic, I would keep the ability to do the AV chain, because if you are fighting an enemy with several others around him, the bonus damage from AV gets applied to all that are hit by SS.
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Quote:
Let's see, in my DPS template builds, I have Sweeping Strike in the top chain doing 432.2 damage every 5.436 seconds. Gapless that would be every 5.28 seconds, so about 82 DPS in the cone. For Blinding Feint -> Attack Vitals, Sweeping Strike plus the Attack Vitals damage is 540.76 damage every 6.73 seconds, so about 80 DPS. Basically the same.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
I would keep the ability to do the AV chain, because if you are fighting an enemy with several others around him, the bonus damage from AV gets applied to all that are hit by SS.
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So I'd stick with the top chain and not worry about the Attack Vitals combo even if we're talking about AoE and taking crowds apart. And if you really want to do AoE damage, buff up Sweep I'd think. Skipping Attack Vitals would probably make buffing Sweep more doable too.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Mea culpa. I was running from vague memories of the numbers, rather than checking them in game. I thought something felt wrong about the numbers, but couldn't put my finger on it at the time.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
That's 20 degrees, not 45, which makes a very big difference.
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And on a side note, personally, as someone who plays a 99% non-IO'd (Perf Shifter procs in QR, Stamina and PP, that's it.) DB/WP scrapper, I like Thousand Cuts. Mainly because it's sounds so satisfying when you hit several targets with it, but also because it's the start of the Sweep Combo which does all sorts of good things for my survivability my knocking a lot of the nasties around me onto their backs, giving RTTC time to work.
I fully accept it's different when you get into high grade builds, but that's not what interests me
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
I spent some time trying to do a BF->AV combo chain build, but I couldn't come up with anything I liked. Having an extra attack which has to be slotted makes it really tough to squeeze everything in.
Doing the top chain again I came up with something better than my first try. This build is a small purple insp away from the incarnate soft cap even without the 2.5b inf enhancement (should I replace it with kb protection or even use that slot somewhere else?), and pauses only 1/20th of a second before each AS. I might have overslotted Health... I wanted the set bonuses but maybe I should slot my Sweep powers a bit more or something. It only gains 1.5 end per second and uses almost 4.5 end a second while running its attack chain, so that could be a problem..
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OK, I made a BF->AV chain I could live with, though it really needs some work. By my math it gets 189 DPS to the above build's 197 and in exchange it has a better sweep. It only makes 1.3 end/sec but it only burns 3.6/sec while attacking. It also has no Hasten end crash because it doesn't use Hasten. That also means I can leave Practiced Brawler on auto, which is a nice if extremely minor perk.
I should really take a slot away from somewhere and stick it in Tough for the Glad's Armor enhancement to make the defense equal between the two builds, but meh.
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edit: Forgot to include the DoT again, d'oh. Looking at Red Tomax, the dot does extra damage roughly halfway between an unenhanced NS and TE. That's about 75 damage in Mids' numbers, which if we pretend it's all applied at once translates into an extra 11 DPS! That's assuming it isn't buffed by Assault or global bonuses - if they apply, then it's more like 15 extra DPS. Either way, and assuming I haven't messed up the math again, the damage for this combo build beats the damage for my non-combo build. That's only when attacking something where the full dot is applied but that's the kind of thing you want high DPS for anyway.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1394;691;1382;HEX;| |78DA65936B6F1241148667CB22B6E5B6D0FB0D7A030AEDB654BF784B632FC6C6A2B| |5347E25944ECBEA06080BA68D975413BFA9D14FFE01ADFA33FC415E7E8011CF9E77| |4A9B408067E7CC7B66CE7B662777B4EE17E2644568C135BBE838857CA95EACD564D| |D972F59B2529281DCEDB5BBCBF1DD667DAF1A5FF6092146CE24859CB4A534D79B45| |BBB06A17F7A5136B4FADCB035971A4996FBAA31D7960CB23E9189B95B2ACCB4AC33| |C7B086C57ABB679C73A2C37ACCAA19F475BB258A341E86CB02FEB4ED9AA193CDEAC| |3CB51C6BCFB2ADC6B1B151B34AE66A75FFB8902B3A0D593F1EA2FA12F47BE616CA9| |F96471C10B2226E31E61F33169E3072AE4E53BA7ECD0D75F50161866E309EFB944C| |B4BC5AB28B67528CE01C239266F465801F84A8B84F591EACAE7B7A78A14BBD40807| |1390884182F48EEC5265DDEBFBCD0C23F40785CBC24818FEB68797D709584AB245C| |A5E16ABE40488AF914676D5356379615DD19163CA050AFB2DD0BDB7ED8F6C37610B| |635D205546AA0451FF19022219519426618996164469079423A033AAF815267CA8C| |044A4DA0D48444FD6FD8E70E65459125A20B3CE3A150BF0AF50FD2C3B8D02934A8D| |A3A88B60EA1AD4368EB08DA3A82B6BE22F9B03ABBE16BBC4FFC3A63F2067013B8C5| |9859E1AEE5296B54191D85D131181D83D109181D20DDB8D28D433701DD047471E85| |E932EA60E3786C3CDE270B338DC5D124C29575370350D57D370350D5733701521F9| |ACEACBEC24B76A97D64929A3A9CFBCF6DC17E014F8CA487F03BE334EE980336AA1C| |C270E19B4B6A94A3151CA224A5944298B28258B52F2B4EF927A4B96F0828DE9EDFB| |475FF7C589E9ED9BD64A77CC2E7544B21D912B1D91AB1D91ADF35DE8EAB1996DBD7| |D7585C6A2EEB0705BCEA5FCECA159EDE2ECEF8B91476CF05787E8CF7944D7DEF23E| |3DEF80F78C810FC047C6BD28FD2BF3FF0199D8DE90| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
edit2: Forgot the other hand, which is that the non-combo chain is still attacking faster and spamming AS much faster, which means more Achilles' Heel procs and more Reactive Interface procs, if that's your thing. So it still does more damage overall once it's all set up, and with the -res is better for teaming, but it lacks the knockup and the flare of the combo.
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Wow, the addition of Vengeful Slice still hurts your dps. I feel ripped off with that power.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Let's see, in my DPS template builds, I have Sweeping Strike in the top chain doing 432.2 damage every 5.436 seconds. Gapless that would be every 5.28 seconds, so about 82 DPS in the cone. For Blinding Feint -> Attack Vitals, Sweeping Strike plus the Attack Vitals damage is 540.76 damage every 6.73 seconds, so about 80 DPS. Basically the same.
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By the way, is the combo damage supposed to ignore buffs? I thought it was, but it is definitely benefiting either from SS's enhancement or blinding feint/musculature.
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Quote:
It's supposed to be buffed by SS's enhancement, not sure about other damage buffs.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
By the way, is the combo damage supposed to ignore buffs? I thought it was, but it is definitely benefiting either from SS's enhancement or blinding feint/musculature.
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Personally, I ditched Vengeful Slice because I found that all too often I couldn't finish the combo before my target either ran away or died. So I freed myself up a power pick. I don't have the BF > AS > SS > AS chain quite gapless, so it might not be strictly better DPS than Attack Vitals on a single hard target, but it's much more versatile than Attack Vitals.
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Here's as good a place as any for this I suppose:
What would be the best ST DPS attack chain for a DB Tanker who would have to take Nimble Slice - which also provides Bruising?
I would think it is the same, just inserting Nimble every time you need to refresh the debuff.
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That's every 10s I believe, I've been debating on whether it would be worth it or not to build around Bruising, Achillies Heel in AS and Fury of the Gladiator in SS + Reactive. (All 3 procs have a 10s duration I believe, not sure how long each application of reactive lasts).|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
I would think it is the same, just inserting Nimble every time you need to refresh the debuff.
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Probably not, but my brain can't seem to let it go.
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I will admit to not being up on the math, but I thought the BF-AV chain on Dual Blades out-DPS's the Kat chain of GC-SD-GC-GD?|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Some thoughts I had on this matter which might be of interest:
The top DB attack chain with about 350% total recharge has the same DPS as the top Katana attack chain. At this point the only advantage you have over Katana is the extra damage bonus from Blinding Feint, which can help if you have a damage aura. SR however, does not. You can get more recharge to lower the downtime on Ablating Strike for more DPS, but Katana can get damage bonuses which will be more effective considering the superior base damage of the attack chain. So for a top-end SR, Katana with Musculature will give you more DPS than DB with Spiritual. |
On my Kat/WP scrap, I was running a seamless GC-Sd-GC-GD chain absent the -20% res proc in GD, and I was only getting around 180dps vs. pyons (without alpha slot). I thought the pre-alpha BF->AV chains were showing higher DPS.
Quote:
The pricy procs are what puts the BF->AV chain significantly behind the other chains, mainly due to Vengeful Slice's activation time.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I will admit to not being up on the math, but I thought the BF-AV chain on Dual Blades out-DPS's the Kat chain of GC-SD-GC-GD?
On my Kat/WP scrap, I was running a seamless GC-Sd-GC-GD chain absent the -20% res proc in GD, and I was only getting around 180dps vs. pyons (without alpha slot). I thought the pre-alpha BF->AV chains were showing higher DPS. |
Did you have the purple procs slotted?
AFAIK the top Katana chain has better DPS than the BF-AV chain even before procs.
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I've read that the best attack chain for DB is BF>AS>SS>AS but I can't figure out how to get the recharge on AS down low enough for it to work. Even with Quickness and Haste and +90% global recharge the chain would be more like: BF > AS > SS > .4s pause > AS > BF > .4s pause > AS ..etc. Am I doing the maths wrong? Is there some other trick I'm missing?
The build I'm shooting for is below, and I can't figure out how I could make it much faster: