Problem: Kicked from BAF because "I was an add and he was doing a 16 man only"


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
I'm sorry, but you're about as wrong as possible on this as can be without imploding into a singularity of wrong.

Life threw you a curve ball. Instead of simply playing the game, you (generic you) had a tantrum and booted someone who only wants to play the damn game.

Simply because the universe didn't align itself to your will.
To be fair Hyper it could be said that you and Snow are having a tantrum because the devs made a queue that adds players to leagues and then threw you a curve ball by allowing the team leaders to customize their leagues by including the ability to kick people they don't want added to the league.

If the devs didn't want team leaders to be able to kick people once the raid started they wouldn't have included the kick feature.


 

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Originally Posted by Second Measure View Post
<snip>......but every player with a level 50 character and who has Going Rogue can get into this endgame and profit by it if they so choose. We’ve made it accessible, challenging, and rewarding. You’ll feel powerful when you defeat these encounters and you’ll feel powerful using the Incarnate Abilities.

Accessible
Incarnate Trials are designed for players who don’t have hours every night to run content. All of the Incarnate Trials are meant to be completed in 30 minutes to an hour and a half. This will let you play them more often--or on more characters--and still have time to socialize, craft, apprehend miscreants, plan diabolically, and all the other great things you’ve been able to do for the past seven years.
Snow Globe's quote of the red name was an interesting insight into the devs thoughts.

I have a level 50 character, I have Going Rogue, and I have an hour and a half of play time. I want to get into the end game content and profit by it. I click the LFG button and wait my turn in the queue. The mission starts and I'm promptly kicked from said content by another player who gets to enjoy the mission, while I have to start the process over again. However, I am now out of playtime and must log off.

Perhaps the Incarnate trials aren't all inclusive?


 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
There is no "scale" for just booting someone for something the team leader has *zero* control over. If they could control the invites, and then invited and immediately booted someone, you'd have a starting point for that.
So you're trying to say there's no difference between someone who boots people just before the awards screen of a TF and someone who boots someone from an undropped raid group because they're ineligible to participate (no Going Rogue, etc)?

Why don't we just agree that we disagree on this point.

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Let people lock the leagues if they want to and avoid the situation entirely on *both* ends.
I still think the trepidation some people feel, that it will be used as an excuse to segregate the player population, is a valid and this issue needs to be addressed.



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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
To be fair Hyper it could be said that you and Snow are having a tantrum because the devs made a queue that adds players to leagues and then threw you a curve ball by allowing the team leaders to customize their leagues by including the ability to kick people they don't want added to the league.
Tantrum?

Put that way, I don't think the assessment is fair.



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Posted

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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
So you're trying to say there's no difference between someone who boots people just before the awards screen of a TF and someone who boots someone from an undropped raid group because they're ineligible to participate (no Going Rogue, etc)?
Your powers of perception are incredible.

... incredibly bad.

I'm saying someone who boots before it even starts isn't even on the scale.
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I still think the trepidation some people feel, that it will be used as an excuse to segregate the player population, is a valid and this issue needs to be addressed.
I don't think it's any more "valid" than worries of, oh, an "elitist" ITF. Again, will some people use it? Sure. Just like some people now only invite SG mates or global friends to teams. But that it's actually a big problem to worry about? No.


 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
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The Trials are built on evolutionary tech and design philosophies that have influenced the last few issues and which come together as the foundation of the Incarnate System. I doubt any complex feature we add to City of... will be the perfect fit for every single player’s preference (even a feature as straightforward as Day Jobs had its detractors), but every player with a level 50 character and who has Going Rogue can get into this endgame and profit by it if they so choose.
You don't like the LFG queue system. You've made that abundantly clear. That system is the only means we have to access the trials. I don't see that as changing any time soon.
I tell you that the the turnstyle and the Trials are not the same thing, and you retort with a redname saying:

Evolutionary Tech (turnstyle, of course) + Design Philosophies (not defined) = FOUNDATION.

That doesn't come anywhere close to being a counterpoint. Just because something is only accessible by one tool, does not make it that tool. It's just as arguable that the tool was designed so that larger format leagues we're possible, and that they are a byproduct of the trials.

Though, you did make a good point of how you certainly don't represent developer intent.

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Over the years there have been many suggestions for the player problem of Badging vs PVP zones.
Cool, you're comparing badges to (simulated) level progression in the game. At least you took my suggestion in the most literal sense possible.

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That content is only accessible from that tool.
Yes, I know you like to make obvious statements, sit back and fold your arms, and like to think you've made an irrefutable valid counterpoint. But you aren't making a point. The two things work together, but they are not the same. Until one of them is fixed, some people will have a harder time using the other. But people will continue to play the content while further negating the goal the devs had for the queue. Making it more suitable to all players is a healthier solution to its success.

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
People will lock leagues even if they wouldn't normally kick someone that came in from the queue.
You speak for the player base about as well as you speak for the devs.


@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

I actually came up with a great analogy here.

Think of the trials as a restaurant. It's a public business that puts people at various tables inside it, and serves food to them. Everyone who goes into the restaurant has the right to get the same quality food, from the same kitchen, at the same price, with the same service. Ie, everyone has the right to do the same trial, with the same NPCs, and the same rewards and advancement. It's a series of semi-private spaces (tables) inside a larger public space (the restaurant). A hostess seats people or groups or people at various tables in the restaurant; that would be the LFG tool.

But this restaurant has some strange rules - its tables only come in certain sizes and need to have a minimum number of people at them before you can get your meal, but if you come with that many people you will get served immediately. If you don't, the hostess groups people together to meet the minimum number for service. But one of the other rules is that the person who reserved the table can remove anyone from it, at any time, for any reasons. The problem with all of this is that the hostess never knows ahead of time who minds having someone being sat with them, and who doesn't. And since it's disruptive and adds to someone's wait time to get a table if they're removed, it's not really good for any of the customers - either the table's original occupants, or the one who was innocently seated there by the ignorant hostess.

I don't think people have the right to sit at other peoples' tables if they're unwanted. If they are, the person whose table that is, is in my opinion perfectly within their rights to remove them from that table, forcing the hostess to ask to seat them elsewhere, including waiting for another table to open. They aren't always going to choose to exercise their rights, but that doesn't mean they don't have those rights.

The problem of people being seated where they aren't wanted would easily, smoothly, and invisibly be solved, if only the hostess could be told ahead of time who was or wasn't open to strangers being sat at their tables. And everyone would always have an enjoyable meal with the minimum amount of waiting as a result.

And as noted, on different visits to the restaurant, the same people might be open to guests sometimes, and not others. Just like they already sometimes have guests reseated, and sometimes don't. It wouldn't create an exclusive or hostile environment anymore than the current situation where someone is disruptively removed does, it would probably be a lot cleaner and smoother.

And that'd be better for the restaurant's business cause really, who wants to eat alot at a restaurant with their friends, when strangers at seated with you without your consent and then you have to ask the hostess to remove them (and get called a jerk by perfect strangers who seem to reject your human rights of privacy and freedom of association), rather than just telling them you want a private table?

Edit: Oh, and yes, privacy and freedom to choose with whom one associates? Basic, fundamental human rights that everyone ought to enjoy.


"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."

 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Your powers of perception are incredible.

... incredibly bad.
Ad hominems away!

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I'm saying someone who boots before it even starts isn't even on the scale.
1: Before it starts is pre-queue. At which point the league leader has no idea if the LFG system will add or not.

2: Once you zone into the raid, it's started. Period.

Please attempt to argue your way around this at your leisure.


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I don't think it's any more "valid" than worries of, oh, an "elitist" ITF. Again, will some people use it? Sure. Just like some people now only invite SG mates or global friends to teams. But that it's actually a big problem to worry about? No.
It becomes a larger issue as the team size necessary for an event scales up.

If you were correct, why don't we see hourly Hami raids or ship raids?



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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector View Post
Edit: Oh, and yes, privacy and freedom to choose with whom one associates? Basic, fundamental human rights that everyone ought to enjoy.
Yup. You have many freedoms. However NCSoft and other players aren't required to grant you a venue for the expression of said freedoms.

Not saying you have no rights. But some of your rights are held in abbeyance by your participation in a service provided by another party.



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Posted

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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
If you were correct, why don't we see hourly Hami raids or ship raids?
Because people aren't interested in running them hourly?

Amazing, that.

I think, even when they were *new,* the most I saw were 2, MAYBE 3 ship raids in a row. And that hasn't been for years.

Sounds like you're really reaching.

The Mothership raid has a benefit in having Vanguard merits drop through the whole thing (assuming, of course, you've gone through the introductory arc.) Hamidon - you can go through 3/4 of it, get DCd and get nothing... while you can get the same reward (as far as the Hami-os) by running a STF or LRSF. Smaller, easier to organize, faster to get started, no massive 50-person lag.

Now, are you going to try to link - oh, Lusca, perhaps - to this in some way? It's as irrelevant as what you brought up here.


 

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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
Yup. You have many freedoms. However NCSoft and other players aren't required to grant you a venue for the expression of said freedoms.

Not saying you have no rights. But some of your rights are held in abbeyance by your participation in a service provided by another party.
And this is why I say the system is a stupid design, because it creates an easily predictable and wholly unnecessary reason for people choosing not to use that service.

I'm not arguing this because I want to lock every league ever, or just on the principle of human rights or something. I'm arguing it, in short, because it's liable to make people stop trialing who otherwise wouldn't, or combine with the ridiculous 'activity system' for rewards to contribute to them stopping trialing.

I think the trials are great. I think tacking these things on to them that make them less fun is stupid.


"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."

 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
I think, even when they were *new,* the most I saw were 2, MAYBE 3 ship raids in a row. And that hasn't been for years.
Not that long ago Triumph had 5 MS Raids in a row, with tiny breaks between a few of the raids.




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector View Post
Oh, and yes, privacy and freedom to choose with whom one associates? Basic, fundamental human rights that everyone ought to enjoy.
And the restaurant wouldn't be obliged to serve a customer know to be problematic to the clientèle. In that case the person that insists disrupting seating arrangements can be refused service.

In other words, if you don't like the service as presented, you are free to eat elsewhere.




Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
And the restaurant wouldn't be obliged to serve a customer know to be problematic to the clientèle. In that case the person that insists disrupting seating arrangements can be refused service.

In other words, if you don't like the service as presented, you are free to eat elsewhere.
So you are so psychotically insistent on people being forced to associate with someone they don't want to that you'd rather have Paragon Studios lose their business than admit they have the right to ask the company to change its service policies?

Edit: Actually, let me rephrase that: So you are so psychotically insistent on people being forced to associate with someone they don't want to that not only would you rather have Paragon Studios lose their business than admit they have the right to ask the company to improve the quality of service provided to everyone, but you also are advocating for Paragon Studios to make the opposite change to their service and prevent people from having any recourse whatsoever other than complying with your ideal of forced association?

What positive purpose does this service as presented serve? Why is changing it bad? How is it not better for both parties involved?


"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."

 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
In other words, if you don't like the service as presented, you are free to eat elsewhere.
Not necessarily.

Do show where else I can "eat" some nice, tasty iXP. Outside the trials, it's like comparing a five course meal in that restaraunt to a vienna sausage you found that had rolled under a dumpster in an alley.


 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
And the restaurant wouldn't be obliged to serve a customer know to be problematic to the clientèle. In that case the person that insists disrupting seating arrangements can be refused service.

In other words, if you don't like the service as presented, you are free to eat elsewhere.
Or free to remove people from your table. Because the management allow that. Changing seating details isn't being disruptive, it's part of the system. Is it nice to be the one removed after waiting for however long for your food? Of course not. Is it annoying to have to queue all over again? Of course. What people are saying is, wouldn't it be nicer if you weren't seated at that table in the first place. For everybody.

Your worry is that nearly all Leagues will lock if this feature is implemented. I don't think they will, but the only way either of us will see is if it is implemented. Or, there can be no change and people will just have to put up with the risk of sometimes being kicked from a group that wants to do the trials a certain way with a certain group of people. Which, however you think they should work, is they way they actually do work. As given us by the Devs.


However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator

 

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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector View Post
So you are so psychotically insistent on people being forced to associate with someone they don't want to that you'd rather have Paragon Studios lose their business than admit they have the right to ask the company to change its service policies?

And I'd say that your insistence on only associating with those you want to is just as psychotic.

Welcome to the real world. Shared by more than just you and your immediate clique of friends. Try to play nice.



Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
And I'd say that your insistence on only associating with those you want to is just as psychotic.

Welcome to the real world. Shared by more than just you and your immediate clique of friends. Try to play nice.
Except that's not what I'm insisting on.

I'm insisting on having the choice in the matter. Just because I can lock a league, doesn't mean I always will. In fact, I usually won't.

But when I want to, I want to be able to. If I can't, then I'm going to kick people who are added because that is what I am able to do: I'm left with no other recourse than to. But kicking them is unpleasant for us both! I'd rather have an option that was more pleasant for both parties.

Why is that something I am a jerk who should cancel over? Isn't telling people to cancel instead of making reasonable customer feedback on quality of life issues, actually bad for the game?

Isn't it more ridiculous to the point of insanity to insist that people are put into positions where everyone's unhappy with no recourse at all (ie, removing the ability to kick people, calling them jerks for doing so, or claiming that it's reportable)? To insist that people shouldn't even have the choice?

Edit - I suppose I should add, that this isn't the real world. It's an internet game that doesn't even pretend to simulate the real world with any degree of accuracy. In real-world terms it's an entertainment service. Nothing more. Nothing less.


"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."

 

Posted

actually there exists a way to lock a league today, simply form a league at the max count, and guess what, its locked.


 

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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
Tantrum?

Put that way, I don't think the assessment is fair.
Respectfully I don't think it's a fair assessment to say that the generic person who kicks someone from a "private" league is having a tantrum when he does it. I only used that term because you used it yourself.


 

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Originally Posted by Wooden_Replica View Post
actually there exists a way to lock a league today, simply form a league at the max count, and guess what, its locked.
Way to miss the point of the whole thread so far. Everyone knows this, but not everyone wants to run with 15/23 other people, they want to run with some fewer number.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
Apostrophe guidelines.

 

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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
People will lock leagues even if they wouldn't normally kick someone that came in from the queue.
I just wanted to take some time to point out the glaringly obvious flaws in this reasoning:

1. Let's assume that you actually understand the player base as a whole, and everyone prefered locking leagues. If so, that means that right now, the majority of the player base is not happy with the Queue system as it is, which means it seriously needs to be looked at and changed to accomodate this majority you've asserted.

2. You've already stated you think the amount of instances people have been kicked in the way the OP experienced are scattered and rare instances. If so, this implies the majority of the population is open to LFG players, and any changes to the gueue to allow controlled team size would hardly make all leagues locked.


@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Because people aren't interested in running them hourly?

Amazing, that.

I think, even when they were *new,* the most I saw were 2, MAYBE 3 ship raids in a row. And that hasn't been for years.

Sounds like you're really reaching.

The Mothership raid has a benefit in having Vanguard merits drop through the whole thing (assuming, of course, you've gone through the introductory arc.) Hamidon - you can go through 3/4 of it, get DCd and get nothing... while you can get the same reward (as far as the Hami-os) by running a STF or LRSF. Smaller, easier to organize, faster to get started, no massive 50-person lag.

Now, are you going to try to link - oh, Lusca, perhaps - to this in some way? It's as irrelevant as what you brought up here.
Oh Bill, you shouldn't have fallen for the unrelated argument in the first place. Tsk tsk.


@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
And I'd say that your insistence on only associating with those you want to is just as psychotic.

Welcome to the real world. Shared by more than just you and your immediate clique of friends. Try to play nice.
Wait, in the real world I can choose to do things with just my friends. Like playing sports at the park. Sure, other people could be at the park, but you're not forced to play sports with them. In fact, if you go to a place with soccer fields, and there's a group of people already playing a game on one of the fields and you try to insert yourself into that game, they'll kick you out. Funny that, right?

You might as well say we're arguing only our friends should be allowed to play CoH. We're not. We're talking about teaming.

*awaiting you're next strawman*


@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

While I agree that people ought to be able to lock leagues if they want to, I think the reason most people are pre-forming their leagues is because it's the only way to guarantee that you'll get a FULL league. Every time I've tried to use the queue "as intended", it's thrown me into the trial with a minimum- or near-minimum-sized league. I know that the trials are supposed to scale to the size of the league, but in practical terms, covering the spawn points in BAF or gathering temp powers in Lambda is a lot easier if you have more bodies (plus more players means more buffs and debuffs stacking). If the queue filled leagues to the maximum instead of the minimum, I would be more willing to use it.


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