What's with Particle Burst?
By
Boomie,
Posted on: 2011-04-30 22:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Certainly explains the powerteam we had going getting totally annihilated by Clockwork. We had a group of "guns only" characters. DP/Traps, AR/Traps, Merc/Traps, AR/Devices, DP/Devices, and Huntsmen. All running around as a group in Praetoria. Depending on who was around we'd have 60%+ DEF, and could do +2x8 pretty easily.
But run into one or two Clockwork lieutenants and they could wipe our entire group. And we could never really figure out why. We had to play all Clock missions on regular difficulty.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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That's because it's a power that's given to the target, meaning an enemy using it on you causes you to, effectively, attack yourself. It's an odd design choice, but it's not "broken".|
Originally Posted by Evilmeister
It looks like it's substituting the ToHit roll with the players own base ToHit + acc modifiers that they may have active through set boni for instance.
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Originally Posted by Evilmeister
This falls into the same category of broken as the autohitting mez/debuff from Tarantula mistresses; I've never seen a ToHit roll being made for their version of Scramble thoughts, nor have I really seen it miss even from stuff 20 levels lower than their target - and that power packs a powerful combination of shutting down debuff toggles, -ToHit and -Defence.
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Also, please -- unless you have a compelling reason -- leave the default font for your posts.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I consider any power that's ridiculously better than its peers broken, so I'll agree the particle burst is broken.
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I would argue that it is broken. It might be a bug it might not be. But using that system on a fairly commonly used attack by a basic LT mob really kind of breaks the system. It punishes character with high to-hit values and will often bypass most defenses. It makes this one specific LT far more powerful then it should be. That is really the definition of broken, IMO.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
That's because it's a power that's given to the target, meaning an enemy using it on you causes you to, effectively, attack yourself. It's an odd design choice, but it's not "broken".
Mental Scramble (Tohit/Def/Perception debuff from high-level Tarantula Mistress) and Scramble Thoughts (Stun/Psi damage from Tarantula Queen) are both autohit. Also, please -- unless you have a compelling reason -- leave the default font for your posts. |
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Originally Posted by Vysires
I would argue that it is broken. It might be a bug it might not be. But using that system on a fairly commonly used attack by a basic LT mob really kind of breaks the system. It punishes character with high to-hit values and will often bypass most defenses. It makes this one specific LT far more powerful then it should be. That is really the definition of broken, IMO.
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I have mixed feelings about whether it's "broken" or not. Using the target character's ToHit roll is weird but not necessarily awful. I personally don't have a problem with some low level enemies still being dangerous, perhaps sometimes even more dangerous to very high characters than low ones by "tapping into the power of the target and reflecting it back at them" or what have you. Most of the game does try to keep enemies on a very predictable leveling ladder, but leveling ladders lead to deadlands once the mobs turn gray.
I think it's an unfortunate design choice, because it's disproportionately effective against defense-based characters with no alternate mitigation. Some characters rely entirely on being missed at a certain rate for survivability. The fact that some NPCs have close-to-autohitting powers - some of which actually debuff defense - is taking 'def busting' to a very unpleasant extreme.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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How do we know it is far more powerful than it should be? Perhaps it was designed with the intent to be this powerful?
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Originally Posted by Vysires
It makes this one specific LT far more powerful then it should be. That is really the definition of broken, IMO.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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So what? Enemies already had a collection of autohit powers, so the enemy being able to hit you through defenses isn't new. And I don't see what's wrong with a specific attack getting stronger the better the target's tohit is.|
Originally Posted by Vysires
It punishes character with high to-hit values and will often bypass most defenses.
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The only reason I would consider the attack 'broken' is that when your Lore pet uses it, it can reduce xp/inf gain (since it's the target doing the damage, not your pet). But the same could be said of Confuse powers, and nobody calls them broken. Like I said before, it's an odd design choice, but I see nothing wrong with it.
Against an even-con enemy, Particle Burst has a certain level of power. Against enemies lower level than you, it has the same level of power. Against enemies higher level than you, it still has the same level of power. Because the strength of Particle Burst is based on you, not on the critter firing it.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Is that why my DM/EA Brute was completely indestructible above ground in mission one of Apex? Cause he had like 50% Defense to energy and atrocious tohit/accuracy bonuses?
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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You couldn't burn your own face off, even if you tried!
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
Is that why my DM/EA Brute was completely indestructible above ground in mission one of Apex? Cause he had like 50% Defense to energy and atrocious tohit/accuracy bonuses?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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You have missed Deamus the Fallen!|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You couldn't burn your own face off, even if you tried!
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And everything else!
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Well if the power was designed to autohit, it could just autohit instead of making the player attack themselves. But I question the logic of a high damage AoE attack being autohit. As-is, results are it has an automatic +50% hit rate along with whatever ToHit the player has. When you're talking about fighting level 15 players, they have no real DEF and a lot of +ToHit (Beginner's Luck) and the power becomes pretty obnoxiously strong. To say nothing of the fact that a level 16 enemy could do 10% of my level 50+1's HP in a single attack that doesn't really miss.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
So what? Enemies already had a collection of autohit powers, so the enemy being able to hit you through defenses isn't new. And I don't see what's wrong with a specific attack getting stronger the better the target's tohit is.
The only reason I would consider the attack 'broken' is that when your Lore pet uses it, it can reduce xp/inf gain (since it's the target doing the damage, not your pet). But the same could be said of Confuse powers, and nobody calls them broken. Like I said before, it's an odd design choice, but I see nothing wrong with it. Against an even-con enemy, Particle Burst has a certain level of power. Against enemies lower level than you, it has the same level of power. Against enemies higher level than you, it still has the same level of power. Because the strength of Particle Burst is based on you, not on the critter firing it. |
You're right that you could argue that the power's not broken, if it was intentionally designed that way. In the same way you could argue a level 1 Hellion having a citywide AoE pulsing autohit damage toggle that does 12,000+11 damage isn't broken if it was intentionally designed that way. So rather than argue if the power is "broken," I'd more say its design is questionable if not silly.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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i think around the time GR was released, particle burst used to be autohit but it was changed in one of the post launch fix patches
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25% at worst. Critter base tohit is 50%, player base tohit against critters is 75%. I don't know, but it's also possible that the power is using player-attacking-player base tohit, which is 50%, meaning it would just benefit from the player's tohit/accuracy bonuses, not from the fact that it's a player.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
As-is, results are it has an automatic +50% hit rate along with whatever ToHit the player has.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Well I said hit rate, not ToHit. Jumping from 50% hit rate to 75% hit rate is +50% hit rate.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
25% at worst. Critter base tohit is 50%, player base tohit against critters is 75%. I don't know, but it's also possible that the power is using player-attacking-player base tohit, which is 50%, meaning it would just benefit from the player's tohit/accuracy bonuses, not from the fact that it's a player.
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But anyway, it's not +25% ToHit at worst, it's 25% at minimum. Much worse after factoring in set bonuses, Tactics, Beginner's Luck, or purple patch.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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... How the hell would the purple patch apply? You're hitting yourself...
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Originally Posted by Dispari
But anyway, it's not +25% ToHit at worst, it's 25% at minimum. Much worse after factoring in set bonuses, Tactics, Beginner's Luck, or purple patch.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Because if the enemies were -1, they'd have -10% ToHit. But they don't, because they make you hit yourself. It's what's making a level 16 enemy have a 95% chance of hitting my level 50. So they get to ignore the purple patch.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
... How the hell would the purple patch apply? You're hitting yourself...
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Underwater swimming? What mission is that?
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Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly
I noticed something a bit funny when I last teamed up in Praetoria: Every now and again something was causing orange numbers to appear on my teammates' heads. Didn't think much of it at the time (assumed it was a display bug of some sort), but I'm guessing this was the cause.
My best guess is that the devs wanted to test this mechanic for something or other and left it in, like that one mission with the underwater swimming . *Shrug* |
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Second mission of the ITF, the very last room (depending on how your team progresses through the map). At the back of the room there's a pool of water with a bridge over it and if you swim toward the bridge you go under it.
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
Underwater swimming? What mission is that?
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
One of the Cimeroran Cave maps. It has a big dead-end room (the sort that has the columns and cobbled floors) with four pools of water. I think it's available on MA, but I don't know the name.
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Though if as a previous poster said, it can chain from any pets present, and it chains PbAoEs instead of ST attacks, it may be rather overpowered against ATs like Traps and MMs who may have half a dozen targets per character for it to chain from. Kind of like the "broken" Poison Trap was, when it generated a cloud from each target and each cloud processed every proc in the trap, thus nuking tightly packed spawns. I question whether the devs thought through the implications of a multitarget autohitting (or near autohitting) chaining damage PbAoE.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Except it's not a bug; that's exactly how the power works.
In fact, it's very similar to a chain attack power, except it has a pulsing PBAoE instead of a chaining ST attack. |
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Particle Burst only hits one target, who then has a PBAoE. It's not an AoE granting each target a PBAoE.
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Originally Posted by Scientist
Though if as a previous poster said, it can chain from any pets present, and it chains PbAoEs instead of ST attacks, it may be rather overpowered against ATs like Traps and MMs who may have half a dozen targets per character for it to chain from.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I'm confused.
If this is busted on Lore Pets right now do the Devs know about it? Are the Clockwork Pets (a) not doing damage to mobs with this power, or (b) doing damage to players witht his character, or (c) all of the above.
Another bit of wierdness, courtesy of Particle Burst:
This particular power has appeared to be obscenely broken for quite some time. It looks like it's substituting the ToHit roll with the players own base ToHit + acc modifiers that they may have active through set boni for instance. Even more annoying is that it gives the AoE-effect as well, which me and a friend noticed when duoing in the 40's Tina McIntyre arc hero-side running at our regular +0x8 at first until we had to drop it down to a boring +0x1 to keep the debt from rolling in.
Defender duo, traps and kinetics - we were both running tactics. Damage boosts affecting us translated into this power *and* all the Traps set pets that could hit us did as well with ticks hitting almost simultaneously from four sources (two players, force field generator, acid mortar) or more if more mortars or even seeker drones had been placed. Add to this more than one original enemy tagging us with Particle burst and the incoming damage became ridiculous.
My favourite was when my buddy who was running the traps died - went to hospital in Peregrine and proceeded to be killed again since the power was still active on him. I'm avoiding the revamped Tina McIntyre arc again for that reason, even if this happened months ago and may have been subject to minor changes. Once it's been properly fixed it may be more than a huge waste of time.
This falls into the same category of broken as the autohitting mez/debuff from Tarantula mistresses; I've never seen a ToHit roll being made for their version of Scramble thoughts, nor have I really seen it miss even from stuff 20 levels lower than their target - and that power packs a powerful combination of shutting down debuff toggles, -ToHit and -Defence.