Master of Lambda design flaws
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2011-04-26 01:19 in The Global Training Room Test Server
As things currently stand, you won't get a second summon. Every mob that comes through the portals that isn't defeated, and the proximity of up to 16 people firing off AoEs will cause significant server slowdown, which will lengthen the real world time that the Seers are out, but also lengthen the recharge on them by the same factor.
When we ran this successfully, we had the group that finished first with the sabotage all come outside to right where he would spawn, except for 1 who went off and got purposely killed for Vengeance, who was then recalled outside to the group. When the other group got down to 1 object left, all but 2 of them came outside, 1 of those 2 died and was recalled out for Vengeance for the other team, and the other then popped the last object. Depending on how heavy your team is on level shifts, exotic damage, Seer pets and debuffs, every second that you can save counts.
The server lag also increases the duration of his Unstoppable, or so it seemed.
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Really? because we got him to 3% health without using grenades the second day (and have since beat him without greandes many times) while testing out for the master badges, but only 3-4 people were incarnate shifted to level 53. and we didn't build the team including or excluding any specific AT's. sounds like your server is just bad.
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Originally Posted by NordBlast
You either haven't read OP or you are missing the point completely.
Marauder has 100% res to S/L when enraged (Always during MO Lam) and 100% res to everything but psionic when he hits Unstopable. No amount of teamwork is going to help it. |
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Really.|
Originally Posted by XFUNK
Really? because we got him to 3% health without using grenades the second day (and have since beat him without greandes many times) while testing out for the master badges, but only 3-4 people were incarnate shifted to level 53. and we didn't build the team including or excluding any specific AT's. sounds like your server is just bad.
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Level 53 shift does nothing to ATs having only S/L damage at their disposal.
You've been just lucky to have right mix of powers without specifically including or excluding any specific ATs. And it doesn't change the fact in any way that some powersets on MO Lam are totally useless in Marauder fight, unless, of cause, they can bring seers to the table.
As far as my server concerned, I had no problem with getting MO Lam and helping others getting it, and again it has nothing to do with fact that some ATs and/or powersets are rather liability to the league than help.
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Really really. |
Originally Posted by XFUNK
Really? because we got him to 3% health without using grenades the second day (and have since beat him without greandes many times) while testing out for the master badges, but only 3-4 people were incarnate shifted to level 53. and we didn't build the team including or excluding any specific AT's. sounds like your server is just bad.
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Please take a look at this post showing Marauder's stats. This can be found in the Master of Lambda Strategy Open Discussion's thread.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Yes, i know what marauder's stats are, learn to team with better players and it's not a problem.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Really really.
Please take a look at this post showing Marauder's stats. This can be found in the Master of Lambda Strategy Open Discussion's thread. A picture is worth a thousand words. |
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Better players meaning... people who don't have S/L powersets?|
Originally Posted by XFUNK
Yes, i know what marauder's stats are, learn to team with better players and it's not a problem.
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I don't care how good of a player you are, your katana is doing zero damage to Marauder.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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You're either being a contrarian on purpose, or just particularly dense.
100% S/L resist means anyone who does only S/L damage will do nothing to him. Doesn't matter if you've got a great player or a lousy player. 100% S/L resist means 100% S/L resist. Simple math. I have the MoLambda, I've helped others get the MoLambda. I understand the mechanics behind the trial and the limitations that have been set forth within. They are not insurmountable, but they are still penalizing LIMITATIONS to anyone who does S/L damage if they are going for the MoLambda badges. Please expand your weak argument beyond "you have lousy teams" or "learn to team with better players". Cause really, if that's all you've got we can ignore you.
It is possible that you're intimating that anyone who only does S/L damage is not a great/good player. If that's true, I find that view rather limiting.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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No, what i'm saying is Marauder can be taken down easily with a pug without being an AT/powerset nazi and without grenades.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
You're either being a contrarian on purpose, or just particularly dense.
100% S/L resist means anyone who does only S/L damage will do nothing to him. Doesn't matter if you've got a great player or a lousy player. 100% S/L resist means 100% S/L resist. Simple math. I have the MoLambda, I've helped others get the MoLambda. I understand the mechanics behind the trial and the limitations that have been set forth within. They are not insurmountable, but they are still penalizing LIMITATIONS to anyone who does S/L damage if they are going for the MoLambda badges. Please expand your weak argument beyond "you have lousy teams" or "learn to team with better players". Cause really, if that's all you've got we can ignore you. It is possible that you're intimating that anyone who only does S/L damage is not a great/good player. If that's true, I find that view rather limiting. |
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Thank you for the clarification, because what you said before wasn't what you said here. That may have been your intent, but unfortunately it wasn't as clear as you may have thought it was. |
Originally Posted by XFUNK
No, what i'm saying is Marauder can be taken down easily with a pug without being an AT/powerset nazi and without grenades.
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If you look earlier in the thread here you'll see my take on the whole thing. IF you're going for the Masters of Badges you will need to make sure that you've got enough -res and non s/l damage to be successful however you can balance that. That can come from whatever source you you can muster; be it Epics, Judgement, or Lore incarnate abilities, etc.
Unfortunately, there will be players out there who won't take AT/Powersets that are primarily S/L as a part of the MoLamba badge runs. What most of us have been trying to say is that having Marauder set with 100% S/L resist gives players like that an "excuse" to be AT/Powerset Nazis. We're not in favor of giving them that excuse and feel that the 100% S/L resist IS a design flaw.
Is that clearer on my part?
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I don't care how good they are, if they deal lethal/smashing damage, they're dead weight for purposes of DPSing Marauder, full stop. If a team can throw such characters at spawns from the doors, that's fine, but the rest of the team that's trying to defeat Marauder has an absolute requirement to deal most of their damage as some other damage type.|
Originally Posted by XFUNK
Yes, i know what marauder's stats are, learn to team with better players and it's not a problem.
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As a result, a team going for this badge needs to pay attention when they admit characters who deal primarily L/S damage, because if you add too many of them, you won't have the DPS you need. If the team doesn't have an unusually large amount of DPS from Psi damage, they need to get him to the point where he pops Unstoppable early enough to ride it out, since all non-Psi damage goes to zero for its duration. So unless you're overloaded on Psi (unlikely for a PuG), that means that even once you have plenty of non-L/S damage, you still have to make sure the assembled ATs and powersets have the DPS boosts (likely including +Dam, -DR and -Regen) to get him that low that early.
Having seen teams assembled by veteran players who all knew one another that took a few tries to put together combinations that met the above requirements (and I've now succeeded at the badge multiple times), I think you're wildly overstating how simple it is to PuG this badge.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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This boils down the entire problem with Marauder's 100% S/L resist nicely: It makes many characters and builds which inflict Smashing or Lethal damage directly useless for the purposes of completing the main, final objective of the trial. Yes, they can contribute indirectly (albeit very indirectly) by taking down adds, but if their primary powersets do smashing or lethal damage, Marauder is completely impervious to them despite any debuffing.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't care how good they are, if they deal lethal/smashing damage, they're dead weight for purposes of DPSing Marauder, full stop. If a team can throw such characters at spawns from the doors, that's fine, but the rest of the team that's trying to defeat Marauder has an absolute requirement to deal most of their damage as some other damage type.
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This is what goes against the spirit of the game and one of the primary, overriding goals the devs have repeatedly stated for many years: a player should not be excluded from or useless on any TF/SF/trial team because of a character's AT or powerset selections. It's been stated in various ways, but that's the principle at the heart of this belief. I (and apparently many others) feel that this principle should apply to "Master of" attempts as well.
Part of CoX's fun has always been taking a thrown-together PUG and trying to make the different powers and ATs work together to overcome obstacles. As such, this is only fun if any combination of ATs and powers has a chance of succeeding with good players playing them. Here's where the MoLambda fails the test, because with 100% S/L resist, any AT which relies upon smashing and/or lethal damage is useless for taking down Marauder. As explained earlier in this thread, debuffs can't reduce 100% resistance, so nothing anyone does can make these characters inflict damage with their primary and secondary powersets, aside from procs or pets which possess different damage types; given Marauder's 100k hp and regen of approximately 100hp/sec, proc damage isn't going to be significant, and cheering for your pets to do all the damage while you're ineffectual doesn't feel very heroic.
So on MoLambda runs, players who have chosen to run any of the many powersets of Brute, Scrappers, Tanks, Stalkers, Blasters, Corruptors, Masterminds, or Defenders which depend on smashing/lethal damage are being penalized solely because of their archetype and powerset. THAT'S what is so frustrating. No way around it with skill, original thinking, debuffs, buffs, or power combinations. Having to rely on armies of Lore Seers to become relevant on this particular trial fits the bill of a trial requiring certain AT/power combinations, and that's what the devs and players alike have always been explicitly against.
Heck, give him 95% S/L resist like Reichsman. At least that gives us something to work with, so we don't feel useless when we try to get the MoL badge for our mace tanks, or our claws scrappers, or our soldiers MM, or our archery blasters, or any of the other characters we've put in the time and effort to get to 50, become Incarnates, and work for Master badges. They'd like a fair chance to be useful against Marauder too.
K
Given the way the badge requirements work out currently, I'd be satisfied if he just wasn't 100% resistant to L/S while just enraged. It's hard to complain if he caps his resist to L/S while both enraged and Unstoppable, because he's 100% resistant to everything but Psi during that time.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by XFUNK
No, what i'm saying is Marauder can be taken down easily with a pug without being an AT/powerset nazi and without grenades.
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Given how popular weapon sets are, either you are going to have salt your pug with a core group before it forms, or you will wind up being a powerset nazi for a good percentage of random teams.
I was going to add a long explanation concerning how players bringing their primarily S/L damage toons would end up feeling like a 3rd wheel because then couldn't do anything to Marauder, but I think it's been covered here already.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I distinctly remember the devs saying that they wanted to provide the opportunity for toons that don't typically "shine" to have their day as well...scrappies, tankies, etc etc blast through most if not all other challenges so on the iTrials they tried something a little different...nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
I'm thinking not everyone is going to insist on getting an Mo badge but they will want to have the incarnate goodies and will therefore be perfectly useful.
For those power sets that are considered "alienated" for the one part of this Mo attempt, they will just need to make sure that they run with their friends or SGs, I'm sure they'll be welcomed with open arms...specifically on the cache runs!
I know with my SG we've had Mo runs with plenty of toons that weren't debuffers or Psi and everyone had their place and had a good time, regardless of the outcome of the trial.
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Intent is one thing, success is another.|
Originally Posted by Meowtch
I distinctly remember the devs saying that they wanted to provide the opportunity for toons that don't typically "shine" to have their day as well...scrappies, tankies, etc etc blast through most if not all other challenges so on the iTrials they tried something a little different...nothing wrong with that in my opinion.
I'm thinking not everyone is going to insist on getting an Mo badge but they will want to have the incarnate goodies and will therefore be perfectly useful. For those power sets that are considered "alienated" for the one part of this Mo attempt, they will just need to make sure that they run with their friends or SGs, I'm sure they'll be welcomed with open arms...specifically on the cache runs! I know with my SG we've had Mo runs with plenty of toons that weren't debuffers or Psi and everyone had their place and had a good time, regardless of the outcome of the trial. |
I doubt anyone feels that debuffers don't shine already. Giving psi damage another single target they are useful against and 90% of the rest of the tf things they are still poor against really isn't doing them a favor as well.
The damage resistance is a really big problem. It gets to be a giant problem if you get someone disconnecting. With the changes to the tf its gotten to be a bigger problem for getting the masters badge and the Rare item that comes with it.
Edit: changed per snow globe's correction thank you
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You don't get a very rare component from a master badge, you get a rare (tier 3) component.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The damage resistance is a really big problem. It gets to be a giant problem if you get someone disconnecting. With the changes to the tf its gotten to be a bigger problem for getting the masters badge and the VR item that comes with it.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I'll just throw in my 2 influence and say that I agree with what is said here.
I don't think there needs to be 3 runs of the same thing (not using any temps)...just redundant. I'm glad I got the MoLambda when it was 'bugged'...
I also think that Marauder's resistances should be something like 90 or 95% to S/L when enraged (100% when he has Unstoppable on)....just something to give S/L toons.
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Warmace tanker reporting in. Main tanking Black Alley Marauder easily.
What does that have to do with a MO run?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
What does that have to do with a MO run?
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Better question, since when is taunt s/l ?
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I think it was an answer for OP's some tanks can't even tank marauder statement. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Better question, since when is taunt s/l ?
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Although its true that you can tank with a S/L set, it wont be effcient and any other brute or tank may just steal aggroo of him from S/L tanker.
I don't know how much my opinion will be worth considering I don't have any 50's (despite how long I've played!) and won't be seeing Incarnate stuff for a long while, but I will admit hearing about this problem intimidates me considering that the vast majority of my characters deal Smash/Lethal damage and would be excluded from Master of Lambda trials.
Setting wise, is Marauder supposed to be Praetorian Earth's unbeatable champion at Smash/Lethal fighting? Like, he eats armor-piercing rounds for breakfast while throwing tanks around in a game of horsehoes?
The reason I ask is because--if that's so--the devs probably won't be keen on nerfing him to let the Smash/Lethal guys have a shot at him.
But what if Master of Lambda's requirements were changed so that there was an objective that would be best handled by a Smash/Lethal damage type character without making it exclusively vulnerable to that damage type?
Modify it so that everyone has an optimally useful role in the trial, without necessarily making any of it easier?
(I have absolutely no idea what Lambda Sector involves other than hearing that Marauder is completely invulnerable to Smash/Lethal damage. I realize I've probably put my foot in my mouth here.)
If only a few people have Seers, I would have them save them until he's in Unstoppable and summon them then.
Also: note that the pets recharge in 15 minutes, but from the moment you come out of the Warehouse, you have 20 minutes to defeat him. If things go south and he doesn't die before the Seers expire, you can try to hold him until they're available again for another try.
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