What happens when you stack Knockup with Knockdown?
By
DreamsRazor,
Posted on: 2011-04-25 16:11 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Guessing here.
I assume knockup and knockback would cause enemies to get thrown up+backwards. This is assuming both effects are applied in the same server tic. A few powers out there have both KB and KU (though I can't think of which ones those are right now). Note that once an enemy foes flying I don't think you can affect its trajectory until it starts to stand up again.
It also seems like (but I can't be certain) that when I've put a chance for KD proc in Freezing Rain, it occasionally throws enemies out of range, due to both small kbs hitting at once.
Weird side note. I think that knockback cancels teleportation if the knockback affects the target before s/he translocates. The teleportation animation will still play, but the enemy is thrown straight backward as if it failed, even if the enemy started the teleportation power before the kb hit.
i think knockdown is essentially knockback, which is different from knockup
since the knockdown (<.75 mag KB) hits the baddy they stay in place, but since the knockup is higher mag and even if knockdown decreases knockup, you wouldnt see much difference between a mag 8 knockup and a mag 7.2 knockup
very possible it doesnt stack though, but the animation of the knockup would override the knockback/down im guessing
at least thats my theory
(also on a side note, on a power like levitate its rated to accept knockback IOs, however it does not increase the mag of the knockup at all, it has a mag 8 knockup, and in mids it shows that knockup going to mag 50 or something with a set of kinetic crash in it, but in game it doesnt appear to enhance the knockup at all)
There is no such thing as knockdown. Only knock-up and knock-back. A low mag knockback will make most mobs fall down in the same spot. When you stack more knockback onto it, the mag increases and lighter mobs get knocked back farther.
Now what happens when you slot knockback with knockup? Things go up and out unless the mag is very small. If the KB mag is only .67 or .75 then the mob would just stay in pretty much the same place and go up. High mag KB they both do thier normal thing but they do not stack. Happened once to me when I hit KO blow and an energy blaster hit the mob at the same time. The corpse went flying, was quite funny to watch but extreemly difficult to duplicate on purpose. I would guess that the KB hit slightly before the KU and then the KU animation took over as the mob was being tossed back.
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There actually is a difference if demorecords are to be believed. A knockdown is actually a specific animation, usually called SWEEP_LOW. It "looks" like you got knocked back and didn't go anywhere, but "knockback" itself is different. There is (apparantly) a switch in the code that modifies between the two. Even though you can't slot for "knockdown" mechanically its handled somewhat differently.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
There is no such thing as knockdown.
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You're looking at animations; HelinCarnate is talking about game mechanics. In game mechanics, there is no such thing as "knockdown". However, if you're hit by a low-magnitude knockback, the game client plays an animation sequence called "knockdown".|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
There actually is a difference if demorecords are to be believed. A knockdown is actually a specific animation, usually called SWEEP_LOW. It "looks" like you got knocked back and didn't go anywhere, but "knockback" itself is different. There is (apparantly) a switch in the code that modifies between the two. Even though you can't slot for "knockdown" mechanically its handled somewhat differently.
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Demorecords only tell you how the models and camera are moved, not what information is being passed over the network, or being calculated on the server, etc.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Did you read my original post where I acknowledged this? Did you read the part where I stated that I was specifically asking about Knockdown procs, that can never be anything other than low-mag knockback? Would the question have been more clear had I asked "What happens when you stack Knockup with low-magnitude Knockback?"?
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
There is no such thing as knockdown. Only knock-up and knock-back. A low mag knockback will make most mobs fall down in the same spot. When you stack more knockback onto it, the mag increases and lighter mobs get knocked back farther.
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@Roderick
Yes, it would.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
You're looking at animations; HelinCarnate is talking about game mechanics. In game mechanics, there is no such thing as "knockdown". However, if you're hit by a low-magnitude knockback, the game client plays an animation sequence called "knockdown".
Demorecords only tell you how the models and camera are moved, not what information is being passed over the network, or being calculated on the server, etc. |
OK, but my point is it's not entirely correct to say "there is no such thing as knockdown." Despite originating from the same source as knockack, knockdown has different mechanics. This is detectable in game by the fact that knockdown does not trigger ragdolling. It's also why overcoming the ~.8 threshold suddenly throws the enemy several feet backward instead of a very short base distance that increases gradually with increasing mag. A lot of people think knockdown is exactly the same as a knockback that doesn't move the enemy backwards, and that is not how it appears to actually work. It's actually a very specific animation, akin to one of the custom Controller holds.
No, mechanically, KB and KD are the exact same thing.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Knockback does not trigger ragdolling. Knockup does. Once again no such thing as knockdown from a game mechanic perspective, just different magnitude of knockback. The amount of time you spend off your feet is the same if you go 0' or 10'. Just a sligtly different animation.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
OK, but my point is it's not entirely correct to say "there is no such thing as knockdown." Despite originating from the same source as knockack, knockdown has different mechanics. This is detectable in game by the fact that knockdown does not trigger ragdolling. It's also why overcoming the ~.8 threshold suddenly throws the enemy several feet backward instead of a very short base distance that increases gradually with increasing mag. A lot of people think knockdown is exactly the same as a knockback that doesn't move the enemy backwards, and that is not how it appears to actually work. It's actually a very specific animation, akin to one of the custom Controller holds.
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I've been curious about this as well while thinking about whether slotting psionic tornado with ragnarok proc or not. Never done it though and still don't know answer.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
I remember that once, a long time ago, I slotted Kinetic Combat: Knockdown Bonus into a Stone Melee brute's attacks, so that his attacks were more likely to keep enemies on their backs. I noticed that, on the odd occasion that the power's Knockdown and the proc's fired at the same time, it would convert to Knockback, much like if I had slotted knockback enhancements in the power.
For attacks with Knockup, like Air Superiority, Disembowel, and Knockout Blow, if you were to slot a KC: KD Bonus, or a Might of the Empire: Damage/Recharge/Chance to Knockdown in one of these attacks, and the power's built-in KU triggered at the same time as the proc's KD, would the two stack creating Knockback, stack creating greater Knockup, or Knock the enemy up and down at the same time (whatever effect that would have)? I have a Might of the Empire slotted in a couple KU attacks in a couple different characters right now, but I'm not noticing any difference. I suspect it's either increased Knockup (a VERY small amount), or both triggering at the same time (with KU overriding the KD). But I'm really not sure. |
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Have you never knocked an enemy backward into a railing? Maybe I'm incorrect about what technically triggers the doll effect and its actually related to getting blown into an object (low railings in particular). However, I do know that Ice Slick never* causes rag dolling, and Force Bolt sometimes does.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Knockback does not trigger ragdolling. Knockup does.
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[*Although Ice Slick might be able to cause it in enemies below Minion class or who have a knockback weakness.]
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| The amount of time you spend off your feet is the same if you go 0' or 10'. Just a sligtly different animation. |
*EDIT: Note that to prove this, you'd have to look not just at horizontal knockback, but *vertical,* because the impact vector is 3D. It is possible for the caster to stand directly above the target and bowl them straight down into the ground, or stand directly below them and blow them straight upward, possibly hitting a barrier like a ceiling, or possibly not, losing momentum, and crashing into the ground.
One particular experiment I want to try (and the basis for my saying that knockdown and knockback, while very similar, are not exactly the same) is blowing an enemy straight down into a variety of surfaces, and contrasting that with what happens when an enemy is truly "knocked down." In theory, a knockback that is perfectly angled would be exactly identical to a knockdown. I don't think this is what would happen in reality, but lining up a perfect shot like this is much harder to do than it sounds. I do, however, know from experience that putting an Ice Slick on an angled surface causes enemies to fall on that exact spot, where knock back on the same surface will cause them to hit, and slide down the slope. Which is why I say that denying the existing of knockback is a little like denying the existence of "death," because it is the same thing as "having no hit points."
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I've never heard of this before and it's not in ParagonWiki. Is this one of those Gamestop GR enhancements? (and if so, it should probably be added)
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Might of the Empire: Damage/Recharge/Chance to Knockdown
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yes it is one of the preorder enhances, theres 5 total, but i cant recall all of their names atm
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
I've never heard of this before and it's not in ParagonWiki. Is this one of those Gamestop GR enhancements? (and if so, it should probably be added)
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<QR>
Knockup with knockdown?
A pregnant woman on her back?
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I used to use Gale on foes from above, and if I recall correctly, the results were more like knockup than knockdown. They would kind of "spike" off the floor, if you will. (bounce off the floor, fly up a few feet, then land)
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
One particular experiment I want to try (and the basis for my saying that knockdown and knockback, while very similar, are not exactly the same) is blowing an enemy straight down into a variety of surfaces, and contrasting that with what happens when an enemy is truly "knocked down." In theory, a knockback that is perfectly angled would be exactly identical to a knockdown. I don't think this is what would happen in reality, but lining up a perfect shot like this is much harder to do than it sounds. I do, however, know from experience that putting an Ice Slick on an angled surface causes enemies to fall on that exact spot, where knock back on the same surface will cause them to hit, and slide down the slope. Which is why I say that denying the existing of knockback is a little like denying the existence of "death," because it is the same thing as "having no hit points." |
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Had a similar experience once, and one that i've have yet been able to replicate, much to my chagrin as it was cool and funny as hell. A team member hit a mob with air superiority, knocking him up at the same time i was Crane Kicking him. The result?|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
(also on a side note, on a power like levitate its rated to accept knockback IOs, however it does not increase the mag of the knockup at all, it has a mag 8 knockup, and in mids it shows that knockup going to mag 50 or something with a set of kinetic crash in it, but in game it doesnt appear to enhance the knockup at all) |
Poor bastid went flying backwards doing the backflipping animation from the ASup hit...and landed on his back iirc. Coolest. Hit. EVER!
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
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Originally Posted by RaikenX
Had a similar experience once, and one that i've have yet been able to replicate, much to my chagrin as it was cool and funny as hell. A team member hit a mob with air superiority, knocking him up at the same time i was Crane Kicking him. The result?
Poor bastid went flying backwards doing the backflipping animation from the ASup hit...and landed on his back iirc. Coolest. Hit. EVER! |
With the right timing, you can also "chain knockup" someone. You'll sometimes see it happen with groups of Mind or Gravity characters spamming Levitate and Lift, sending the enemy flying two or three times higher than expected.
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Wouldn't it allow the knockup to affect foes with a higher level of knockback immunity, though? Such as some bosses, possibly AVs (not sure of their protection) and PvP?
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
(also on a side note, on a power like levitate its rated to accept knockback IOs, however it does not increase the mag of the knockup at all, it has a mag 8 knockup, and in mids it shows that knockup going to mag 50 or something with a set of kinetic crash in it, but in game it doesnt appear to enhance the knockup at all)
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if you slot KB enhance into a power with KB it will increase the mag of that KB, you can easily make force bolt a mag 50ish KB with ED cap knockback enhance|
Originally Posted by Scientist
Wouldn't it allow the knockup to affect foes with a higher level of knockback immunity, though? Such as some bosses, possibly AVs (not sure of their protection) and PvP?
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this however does not work on powers which have knockup, knockup powers can accept KB enhances but the KB enhance does not appear to actually enhance anything, as with the example i used in lift, its ~8 mag knockup but even slotted ED cap for KB that number wont change (it does change in mids, but it does not appear to change in game)
edit: to answer your question, yes a force bolt ED capped for KB enhance can Knockdown most AVs unless they have like mag 100 KB protect
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yup...have had that happen when running my grav dommy with a friend's mind dommy.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
With the right timing, you can also "chain knockup" someone. You'll sometimes see it happen with groups of Mind or Gravity characters spamming Levitate and Lift, sending the enemy flying two or three times higher than expected.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
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I remember that once, a long time ago, I slotted Kinetic Combat: Knockdown Bonus into a Stone Melee brute's attacks, so that his attacks were more likely to keep enemies on their backs. I noticed that, on the odd occasion that the power's Knockdown and the proc's fired at the same time, it would convert to Knockback, much like if I had slotted knockback enhancements in the power.
For attacks with Knockup, like Air Superiority, Disembowel, and Knockout Blow, if you were to slot a KC: KD Bonus, or a Might of the Empire: Damage/Recharge/Chance to Knockdown in one of these attacks, and the power's built-in KU triggered at the same time as the proc's KD, would the two stack creating Knockback, stack creating greater Knockup, or Knock the enemy up and down at the same time (whatever effect that would have)?
I have a Might of the Empire slotted in a couple KU attacks in a couple different characters right now, but I'm not noticing any difference. I suspect it's either increased Knockup (a VERY small amount), or both triggering at the same time (with KU overriding the KD). But I'm really not sure.
@Roderick