One-cast-to-all for Support Powers
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-11 18:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Would you accept at least a 20 fold increase in the end cost per buff ?
That applies even if solo ?
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
It would be nice if it worked like a clicky version of repel from kinetics, initial cost and an end cost per target hit.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Would you accept at least a 20 fold increase in the end cost per buff ?
That applies even if solo ? |
Can you cast shield or SB on yourself when you are soloing?
Besides, it can easily get around the problem by keeping the traditional one-to-one casting buttions while adding a AoE-cast button as an optional extra to it.
And if technology allows, end will be calculated to the number of recipent - may be with a upper cap just in case. So it will cost one unit of end if just one recipent nearby; two units if two; and so on until max number is reached. (Edited: which is similar to what Edana suggested)
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You know, I've heard this argument when I bought it up before and I still do not buy it. Yes, when the MM buffs were made AoE the endurance cost was increased but I do not believe the two situations are synonymous.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Would you accept at least a 20 fold increase in the end cost per buff ?
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MM Pet Upgrades last until the pet is killed. Increasing the endurance cost of the upgrades adds a strategic element to them. If a single pet dies and you resummon them you have to decide whether to upgrade them immediately, wait until more pets need upgrading or even hold off until the end of the mission. It also serves to decrease the effectiveness of mid-combat summons slightly nerfing MMs.
The same is not true of the shield buffs. They are on a 4 minute timer so even if someone dies you were planning to re-bubble them in less than 4 minutes anyway. This eliminates the strategic element of buffing replacing it with spend X seconds and Y endurance every 4 minutes.
I don't like saying "other games do this so we should to" but this is one case where I think it is valid. If you look at a certain other MMO the duration and ease of casting of buff powers have been steadily improving. In the current incarnation a single cast buffs everyone in your team for 1 hour and have a relatively small mana cost.
Now I can see strong arguments in this game against increasing the duration of such buffs, they are very powerful and should not persist for long after the buffer has left the team. However I do not feel that making them easier to use would break the game.
The way I see it repeatedly casting single target buffs on fellow players is not good gameplay, it's make-work. As for balance, the buffs are designed to be cast continuously on an entire team, making that easier to do is not going to break the balance. The powers are not (or at least should not be) balanced around being hard to use.
Of the 100% uptime ST buffs powers there are basically 3 categories:
1. Shields on 4 minute durations
2. Mez protection buffs on 60 or 90 second durations
3. Speed Boost
The shields I think should be changed to buff the team with a single cast, no question about it. The sets they are in are pretty much designed around having that buff up 100% of the time so make it easier to do.
Mez protection buffs I think are fine as is. I wouldn't object to them being easier to use but I also don't think it is necessary. Doing an occasional cast either preemptively or in response to mezzing seems reasonable for them.
Speed Boost I think needs nerfing. I would like to see it made easier to use as well but I think it needs nerfing even in it's current form.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
You know, I've heard this argument when I bought it up before and I still do not buy it. Yes, when the MM buffs were made AoE the endurance cost was increased but I do not believe the two situations are synonymous.
MM Pet Upgrades last until the pet is killed. Increasing the endurance cost of the upgrades adds a strategic element to them. If a single pet dies and you resummon them you have to decide whether to upgrade them immediately, wait until more pets need upgrading or even hold off until the end of the mission. It also serves to decrease the effectiveness of mid-combat summons slightly nerfing MMs. The same is not true of the shield buffs. They are on a 4 minute timer so even if someone dies you were planning to re-bubble them in less than 4 minutes anyway. This eliminates the strategic element of buffing replacing it with spend X seconds and Y endurance every 4 minutes. I don't like saying "other games do this so we should to" but this is one case where I think it is valid. If you look at a certain other MMO the duration and ease of casting of buff powers have been steadily improving. In the current incarnation a single cast buffs everyone in your team for 1 hour and have a relatively small mana cost. Now I can see strong arguments in this game against increasing the duration of such buffs, they are very powerful and should not persist for long after the buffer has left the team. However I do not feel that making them easier to use would break the game. The way I see it repeatedly casting single target buffs on fellow players is not good gameplay, it's make-work. As for balance, the buffs are designed to be cast continuously on an entire team, making that easier to do is not going to break the balance. The powers are not (or at least should not be) balanced around being hard to use. Of the 100% uptime ST buffs powers there are basically 3 categories: 1. Shields on 4 minute durations 2. Mez protection buffs on 60 or 90 second durations 3. Speed Boost The shields I think should be changed to buff the team with a single cast, no question about it. The sets they are in are pretty much designed around having that buff up 100% of the time so make it easier to do. Mez protection buffs I think are fine as is. I wouldn't object to them being easier to use but I also don't think it is necessary. Doing an occasional cast either preemptively or in response to mezzing seems reasonable for them. Speed Boost I think needs nerfing. I would like to see it made easier to use as well but I think it needs nerfing even in it's current form. |
In the past I've suggested that powers in the "always up" category (defined as FF, Sonic, Thermal, and Cold shields, and Speed Boost) auto-reset their duration if a person they are on touches the caster's big bubble, cold aura, or PBAoE heal. So, if you cast Speed Boost on someone, it would reset its duration each time they got healed by your Transfusion. If they run off, well, that's their perogative, and your choice whether to rebuff.
In any case, I agree something really ought to be done about FF, Sonic, and Kinetics. The first two are searching for a reason to exist, the latter is just a case of "balance by frustration."
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That's a neat idea although I'm not sure how practical it would be to actually implement|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
In the past I've suggested that powers in the "always up" category (defined as FF, Sonic, Thermal, and Cold shields, and Speed Boost) auto-reset their duration if a person they are on touches the caster's big bubble, cold aura, or PBAoE heal. So, if you cast Speed Boost on someone, it would reset its duration each time they got healed by your Transfusion. If they run off, well, that's their perogative, and your choice whether to rebuff.
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| In any case, I agree something really ought to be done about FF, Sonic, and Kinetics. The first two are searching for a reason to exist, the latter is just a case of "balance by frustration." |
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So how about a real world example then? Does it take you more energy to lift 2 heavy things then it does one? Now apply the answer to why end would increase if you buffed more people at once. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
You know, I've heard this argument when I bought it up before and I still do not buy it. Yes, when the MM buffs were made AoE the endurance cost was increased but I do not believe the two situations are synonymous.
MM Pet Upgrades last until the pet is killed. Increasing the endurance cost of the upgrades adds a strategic element to them. If a single pet dies and you resummon them you have to decide whether to upgrade them immediately, wait until more pets need upgrading or even hold off until the end of the mission. It also serves to decrease the effectiveness of mid-combat summons slightly nerfing MMs. The same is not true of the shield buffs. They are on a 4 minute timer so even if someone dies you were planning to re-bubble them in less than 4 minutes anyway. This eliminates the strategic element of buffing replacing it with spend X seconds and Y endurance every 4 minutes. I don't like saying "other games do this so we should to" but this is one case where I think it is valid. If you look at a certain other MMO the duration and ease of casting of buff powers have been steadily improving. In the current incarnation a single cast buffs everyone in your team for 1 hour and have a relatively small mana cost. Now I can see strong arguments in this game against increasing the duration of such buffs, they are very powerful and should not persist for long after the buffer has left the team. However I do not feel that making them easier to use would break the game. The way I see it repeatedly casting single target buffs on fellow players is not good gameplay, it's make-work. As for balance, the buffs are designed to be cast continuously on an entire team, making that easier to do is not going to break the balance. The powers are not (or at least should not be) balanced around being hard to use. Of the 100% uptime ST buffs powers there are basically 3 categories: 1. Shields on 4 minute durations 2. Mez protection buffs on 60 or 90 second durations 3. Speed Boost The shields I think should be changed to buff the team with a single cast, no question about it. The sets they are in are pretty much designed around having that buff up 100% of the time so make it easier to do. Mez protection buffs I think are fine as is. I wouldn't object to them being easier to use but I also don't think it is necessary. Doing an occasional cast either preemptively or in response to mezzing seems reasonable for them. Speed Boost I think needs nerfing. I would like to see it made easier to use as well but I think it needs nerfing even in it's current form. |
As to it being work, I have 2 answers. You(generic) do not need to buff everyone all the time. If you(generic) think it's work, you're doing it wrong.
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Applying real world analogs to game balance issues is pretty pointless. In the real world does doing a jumping-spin attack with a sword require more or less effort than slamming it down on someone's head? Because I'm willing to bet the forming is quite a bit harder int he real world but in game they have the same endurance costs.|
Originally Posted by Sharker Quint 01
So how about a real world example then? Does it take you more energy to lift 2 heavy things then it does one? Now apply the answer to why end would increase if you buffed more people at once.
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| As to it being work, I have 2 answers. You(generic) do not need to buff everyone all the time. If you(generic) think it's work, you're doing it wrong. |
Think about it this way. Force Field's small shields and Fortitude provide the same defense bonus. However Fortitude also provides a damage and to hit buff and only requires a single power choice compared to two power choices in Force Field (yes, FF does also provide some resistances but those are situational while Damage/To Hit is always useful). The balancing mechanism for this is that Fortitude is limited to about 4 allies at once (more if you have a very high recharge build) whereas Force Field can be used on the entire team.
Even if you consider the non-defense portions of the powers to be about equal (which I would disagree with) the power choices clearly balance it. FF has 2 power choices and can buff the 7 team members while Fortitude has 1 power choice and can buff 4.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
In the past I've suggested that powers in the "always up" category (defined as FF, Sonic, Thermal, and Cold shields, and Speed Boost) auto-reset their duration if a person they are on touches the caster's big bubble, cold aura, or PBAoE heal. So, if you cast Speed Boost on someone, it would reset its duration each time they got healed by your Transfusion. If they run off, well, that's their perogative, and your choice whether to rebuff.
In any case, I agree something really ought to be done about FF, Sonic, and Kinetics. The first two are searching for a reason to exist, the latter is just a case of "balance by frustration." |
I think that is a very good idea. Have the shields (ice, fire, FF, sonic, whatever else) run as toggles with a spherical catchment area where if, say, a teammate or league member falls within which they will receive new shields. If that person run off the catchment area, the shields wear off in accordance with their current life-span (4 minutes or however long). Conversely, if that person stay within the catchment area, the life-span will always be at its maximum.
As to SB, from my experience (I use my kin rather too often in the last 2 years), most of the time, people can do well without it. I know some people hate SB for its +speed. As to the +recharge and +recovery portions of it, they are really nice touch but not exactly game breaking. Most people want a Kin for other of its powers. So personally, I wounld not mind SB uses the catchment area buffing method along with all other shields. If being OP is a real concern for most people - for example, SB will come by too easily - shink the catchment area or lower the +recharge portion or even shorten its life-span a bit - just a bit though.
As to mez prot, I don't mind it is to be remained as a click one-to-one cast, or change it to a Mind-Link style buff, or use the abovementioned catchment method (but may be with a small radius: 10' to 15' may be). Personally, I prefer the last option.
Anyhow, whichever casting method is to be taken, I do think that buffing method needs a bit of a reworking.
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As opposed to buffing 23 players one at at time every 4 minutes? Absolutely. If we're going to see more raid-level content, then we need raid variants on these buffs.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Would you accept at least a 20 fold increase in the end cost per buff ?
That applies even if solo ? |
I agree that FF MM's are in desperate need of a change. But this type of change has been discussed over and over in the MM forums and I don't like it.
A change I have suggested before is to normalize all shield cast times. Currently FF shields take twice as long to apply compared with Cold and Thermal shields.
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This +100000
Doing Trials quite often, mostly being the only /thermal around, majority of the time i'm buffing up people with the 2 shields, keep track wich are fading. I would glady pay a base 75% end usage to give a 20/30 yrd aoe shield buff (only the resist ones, mez/forge i dont mind).
The minor problem would be in a death of a teammember and to rebuff him, but by adding this sort of feature.. i'm happy to re-apply that AoE buff again.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
I agree that FF MM's are in desperate need of a change. But this type of change has been discussed over and over in the MM forums and I don't like it.
A change I have suggested before is to normalize all shield cast times. Currently FF shields take twice as long to apply compared with Cold and Thermal shields. |
I think what we are talking here is to do without casting altogether, nevermind normalising the time. At this stage, the crux of the suggestion is to change the tedious select-click-cast mechanism into a toggle mechanism. Once the toggle is up, whosoever within the toggle area will receive a buff, or a shield.
Lets use FF as an example. Currently, you need to select someone, click on, say, Deflection Shield, rooted, and wait for it to cast on your subject; then repeat again for the next one, and the next, and so on. But what we are saying here is to change Deflection Shield (along with other similar powers) into a toggle with a radius of however big. Whoever steps inside that toggle area (or I called it 'catchment area' above) will receive a Deflection Shield without the FFer needing to select that person, click, rooted and cast anymore.
While that person is within the Deflection Shield toggle radius, a Deflection Shield will always be on him so long as the toggle is running. If that person is stepping out of the toggle radius, or the buffer dies, the Deflection Shield will expire after 4 minutes (or however it is meant to be). Of course, it is renewable once that person steps into the toggle radius again. All the FFer needs to do is to run the toggle and perhaps manage his Endurance. He can then be more engaged into the trial/tf/sf/mission. Also, on a side note: buffing roots the buffer down regularly. Nevermind being tedious and laborious, it is just not fun to be in a fast pace trial/tf/sf while being rooted down every so often. (that reminds me of a Apex tf with my kin. Being rooted down while trying to SB my team got me kill more often than I actually trying to fight Battle Maiden.)
I think that makes buffers' job a lot less mechanically repetitive and mental tedious. The recipients get their buffs - and so long as the toggle is running, he can go and get it himself. It is a win-win suggestion.
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In other words, turn it into Dispersion Bubble. That would give a FF'er 3 nearly-identical powers. It's highly unlikely that would happen.
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Originally Posted by Angelic_EU
Lets use FF as an example. ...what we are saying here is to change Deflection Shield (along with other similar powers) into a toggle with a radius of however big. Whoever steps inside that toggle area (or I called it 'catchment area' above) will receive a Deflection Shield without the FFer needing to select that person, click, rooted and cast anymore.
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No you are wrong.|
Originally Posted by Gargoyle_KDR
In other words, turn it into Dispersion Bubble. That would give a FF'er 3 nearly-identical powers. It's highly unlikely that would happen.
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They are not even mechanically identical. Besides, the point of the suggestion is to dispense with the casting mechanism substituting something convenient to operate - particularly in a fast pace and large team running around in a chaotic environment.
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This I don't particularly care for. I think an AoE small bubble cast makes a lot more sense than changing the into a "duration toggle buff" (although I'll admit that the idea would be interesting).
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Originally Posted by Angelic_EU
Lets use FF as an example. Currently, you need to select someone, click on, say, Deflection Shield, rooted, and wait for it to cast on your subject; then repeat again for the next one, and the next, and so on. But what we are saying here is to change Deflection Shield (along with other similar powers) into a toggle with a radius of however big. Whoever steps inside that toggle area (or I called it 'catchment area' above) will receive a Deflection Shield without the FFer needing to select that person, click, rooted and cast anymore.
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No. No they're not.|
Originally Posted by Angelic_EU
No you are wrong.
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The nice thing about FF's little bubbles are that the players can take the bubbles well away from the caster for 4 minutes. If you turn it into an AoE toggle, it's just a double for Dispersion Bubble. What's more, it INHIBITS larger teams, as players have to stay near the caster to enjoy the benefits.
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Just to clarify I believe his idea was a toggle that applies a 4 minute buff to any players within it (sort of like the bubble machine in the Terra Volta Respec Trial). This is theoretically possible within the limits of the power system.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No. No they're not.
The nice thing about FF's little bubbles are that the players can take the bubbles well away from the caster for 4 minutes. If you turn it into an AoE toggle, it's just a double for Dispersion Bubble. What's more, it INHIBITS larger teams, as players have to stay near the caster to enjoy the benefits. |
While I don't like the idea for other reasons (I think a click power is a more elegant solution) it does not have the drawbacks you are suggesting.
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I see one glaring problem with this.|
Originally Posted by Angelic_EU
While that person is within the Deflection Shield toggle radius, a Deflection Shield will always be on him so long as the toggle is running. If that person is stepping out of the toggle radius, or the buffer dies, the Deflection Shield will expire after 4 minutes (or however it is meant to be). Of course, it is renewable once that person steps into the toggle radius again. All the FFer needs to do is to run the toggle and perhaps manage his Endurance. He can then be more engaged into the trial/tf/sf/mission. Also, on a side note: buffing roots the buffer down regularly. Nevermind being tedious and laborious, it is just not fun to be in a fast pace trial/tf/sf while being rooted down every so often. (that reminds me of a Apex tf with my kin. Being rooted down while trying to SB my team got me kill more often than I actually trying to fight Battle Maiden.)
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If the power were set up like this, there would likely be a Self -end effect each time a person is affected (cf. [Repulse]). That portion of the power is unaffected by Endurance Reduction enhancements.
In order to have the shield instantly recharged whenever you're in range (or soon after), the power would have to pulse every 0.5 to 2.0s.
Let's assume that you're on a trial with 14 other people - one of each AT - and they all stay within range of your bubble. The bubble pulses once every 0.5s and drains 0.1 End from you per pulse per target. Assuming that each character has as many buffable pet powers as they're capable of taking (7 for the mastermind, 5 for the Arachnos soldier, one each for the Controller, Dominator, and Blaster) plus one Patron pet for each AT except MM and one Lore pet per character, that's 63 targets (at least! I may have missed some) - plus you and your pets. That's 12.6 End drained from you every second. I don't care how good your recovery is, you will be flatlined in under a minute if you use ANY other powers, and in a couple minutes just by running this one toggle, even if it's "free" outside the "per target" cost.
Even on a normal team without such a ridiculously massive number of pets, the end cost would be prohibitive.
@Roderick
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You mean... like the ones you unlock during the raids?|
Originally Posted by Intrinsic
As opposed to buffing 23 players one at at time every 4 minutes? Absolutely. If we're going to see more raid-level content, then we need raid variants on these buffs.
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Use those.
Otherwise, /disagree, like every OTHER time this is brought up on buffing sets.
How many people here have tried to play a FF defender I wonder?
I did, he has been around lvl 20 for some years now. Even with hero stats to keep track of wo has a buff and how long till it goes down, keeping a team bubbled is tedious and not much fun.
From that perspective something should change.
I like the idea of incorporating the two bubbles into dispersion field. Perhaps even having to initially cast the two smaller bubbles and having the bigger bubble reset the duration to four minutes each time it is touched.
Even with a base increase in endurance cost for dispersion bubble this would be much more manageable and take the burden of constantly casting two shields off the FF player and allow them to do other things above and beyond being a buff bot.
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I haven't, and I will never play one (or a Sonic, Thermal, Cold Dom or Kinetics) unless something like this is implemented (of course that still gives me Traps, Trick Arrow, Dark and Rad to play with).
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Originally Posted by _Zep_
How many people here have tried to play a FF defender I wonder?
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Personally I have always wonder why the durations of ally buffs are so short. Every other MMO the buffs are at least 10 minutes long. As it stands now on force field characters and others like that with short buffs it pretty much makes using endurance for attacking really hard to come by. I pretty much respec out of all but the tier 1 and the tier 9 attacks for my defenders that have it. Its just not worth being caught without enough end to bubble everyone. Making the buffs 30 to 60 minutes long with the ability to right click to cancel a buff would be a huge QoL feature for the buffing ATs. There is absolutely no reason why stuff thats ally only has to have such retardedly short duration. Its not like these buffs are helping you directly.
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Played multiple FF, Sonic, Thermal and Cold characters. |
Originally Posted by _Zep_
How many people here have tried to play a FF defender I wonder?
I did, he has been around lvl 20 for some years now. Even with hero stats to keep track of wo has a buff and how long till it goes down, keeping a team bubbled is tedious and not much fun. |
Not particularly "tedious" to me. I'll take the flexibility of applying them individually, thanks.
The very first time I did a trial was with my Bots/FF MM. That is my first ever and first ever made it to 50 character. So naturally I took it to my first ever BAF. Not long after the cut scene (which, by the way, I kept chanting 'Milf, Milf, Milf...' at it XD) I found myself rather hectic in casting shields to my teammates and everyone else who happened to be nearby.
Of course, I know those shields last for a few minutes and in fact I have a phethora of all ATs with support/buff power sets too, which I have been playing for years. So I am rather used to buffing the team. Every time, however, I cast a shield, SB, etc., I just could not help thinking how nice would that be if I could do an AoE cast to everyone near me - much like the current MM upgrade powers: cast to one, all others near will get it too.
To me, the existing one-to-one buff casting method is rather dated and chucky (select, rooted/buff; select, rooted/buff; ...). It is fine when there are just 8 in a team and the pace of the missions are relatively slower. People now prefer a faster pace playstyle, or so called 'fast run'. Also, those newer TFs/SFs/trials are getting more exciting, hectic and chaotic to play with all the ambushes/bosses running around/multiple mobs charging at you. The one-to-one casting does not seem to fit well with this fast pace playstyle.
In fact, if you have played a MM before they changed the upgrading method (i.e. upgrading your pet one-by-one), you would understand how much convenient it has been since they have changed to the current AoE upgrade.
So I would suggest to change certain buff powers, like shields, SB, etc., from the existing one-to-one casting to an AoE casting.