There's also this from the patch notes:
Apex and Tin Mage
* Apex and Tin Mage TFs now reward 2 Incarnate Threads upon successful completion instead of Incarnate Shards.
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Paragon Wiki really needs to fix this.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
There's also this from the patch notes:
Apex and Tin Mage * Apex and Tin Mage TFs now reward 2 Incarnate Threads upon successful completion instead of Incarnate Shards. |
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_20
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| The Incarnate Task Forces (Apex and Tin Mage) both now have as a final reward: 40 Merits; 1 Shard; 2 Threads. |
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Incarnate_Component
Of course you still get Shards anyway because they will randomly drop from enemies during the TFs and sense they changed it to even con instead of level 50 to drop Shards we can now get then while exemplar/Malefactor on the lower level TFs.
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It's a wiki - you can change it yourself if you find something wrong...
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Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
Paragon Wiki really needs to fix this.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_20 Even worse is that this page still says 2 Shards. http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Incarnate_Component Of course you still get Shards anyway because they will randomly drop from enemies during the TFs and sense they changed it to even con instead of level 50 to drop Shards we can now get then while exemplar/Malefactor on the lower level TFs. |
...I forgot what experience means.
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Surely that's the point of Shards, though? They let characters continue to advance in their Incarnate powers when playing all the content in the game, except AE. I don't think that could be done with only Threads, unless there's a way to give mobs different drops rates in different content for the same drops (offhand, I don't recall any instances of that in the game).
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Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
Of course you still get Shards anyway because they will randomly drop from enemies during the TFs and sense they changed it to even con instead of level 50 to drop Shards we can now get then while exemplar/Malefactor on the lower level TFs.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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You make a good point but Shards can only be used to advance your Alpha Slot. The only use for them after you reach the Tier 4 in your Alpha Slot is to turn them into Threads. And the exchange rate is 10 Shards for 10 Threads every 18 hours (time might be wrong) or 10 Shards for 5 Threads any time. Sense you need more Threads than Shards this exchange is really rather useless. I guess it could work if it's meant to just be a harder way to collect Threads. Like you can collect Shards without doing TFs but it takes longer. But then what about if you're not doing TFs or Trials? It'd take like 3 months just to collect enough Shards to make into Threads and convert that into a single component. Plus you also have to use Threads to earn Incarnate XP if you choose not to do Trials.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Surely that's the point of Shards, though? They let characters continue to advance in their Incarnate powers when playing all the content in the game, except AE. I don't think that could be done with only Threads, unless there's a way to give mobs different drops rates in different content for the same drops (offhand, I don't recall any instances of that in the game).
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The alternatives to Trials shouldn't be THAT much more time consuming. I think the Drop rate for Shards outside of TFs is actually a fair alternative if you choose not to do TFs. It does take a little longer but it's the trade for an easier way to get shards. The only fair alternative for Trials is doing TFs which doesn't work if you don't like TFs.
For myself, I like doing the TFs and Trials but I just don't like that there are only 2 Trials to do for Threads. It just doesn't give that much of a choice in how I earn my Threads other than do the Trials repeatedly until I don't need Shards anymore then I can turn my left over Shards into Threads.
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Well, mobs in BAF are dropping both shards and threads, so there is a way in-game to give different drop rates.
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Surely that's the point of Shards, though? They let characters continue to advance in their Incarnate powers when playing all the content in the game, except AE. I don't think that could be done with only Threads, unless there's a way to give mobs different drops rates in different content for the same drops (offhand, I don't recall any instances of that in the game).
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I find your lack of signature disturbing.
I always thought that shards were the universal currency for Incarnates. Threads are for the first 5 slots, some Currency X is for the next 4 slots, and Currency Y is for Omega. You can convert shards into threads, Currency X, and Currency Y, but you can't convert threads into Currency Y, threads into Currency X, or Currency X into Currency Y. Also Shards are the incarnate currency that is only available in the non-Incarnate Trial section of the game. I don't think that Shards will ever be phased out since it has its use of being earned in everything, but trials.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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Not really. I had 10 shards and was short by about 7 threads when I wanted to get my tier 3 interface slot. A conversion and 2.5 million inf later and I had everything I needed.|
Originally Posted by Rial_Vestro
Sense you need more Threads than Shards this exchange is really rather useless.
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I wouldn't want to get all my incarnate powers this way because the conversion is still rather disadvantageous -- my guess is that threads drop at least 5 times more frequently than shards. But the conversion comes in handy in a pinch.
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So basically you're saying it's circumstantial but not something you'd really want to use on a regular basis? But doesn't that still eliminate the need for a timer to be placed on one if no one is going to use it that often anyway? And the other one, trade 10 shards for 5 threads as much as you want, what's the use in that if it's really not that convenient to do it? It's more of an inconvenience really.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
Not really. I had 10 shards and was short by about 7 threads when I wanted to get my tier 3 interface slot. A conversion and 2.5 million inf later and I had everything I needed.
I wouldn't want to get all my incarnate powers this way because the conversion is still rather disadvantageous -- my guess is that threads drop at least 5 times more frequently than shards. But the conversion comes in handy in a pinch. |
I also don't really see a use for turning threads into XP because the rate of XP isn't that bad. I mean it only took me about an hour to unlock Interface and most of that time was just waiting for the event to start rather than actually doing it. It just seems that the XP conversion is for people who don't want to do the Trials but I don't see that being a far alternative you can unlock a slot in about an hour doing the trial or who knows how many weeks by converting Shards into Threads and threads into XP. Has anyone even tested this to see how difficult unlocking a slot is if you choose not to run in a trial? Actually difficult isn't the right word, the trials are difficult, not running a trial is just time consuming. I prefer the challenge over the grinding though I have not yet been on a successful trial, it's still rewarding even if you fail it.
Anyway, the whole point of this topic is basically just that the "alternative methods" don't seem even to each other in terms of difficulty and time. In fact it seems that the drop rate for Shards and Threads if you do it the main way is about even to each other. But the alternative way Threads become allot more difficult to obtain than Shards which doesn't seem fair when Threads are allot more useful than Shards. It takes about 4 shards to make a single component and 10 Threads to make a single component so the exchange rate should actually be that 4 Shards can make 10 Threads whenever you want or 4 Shards can make 20 Threads every 24 hours. This would better balance out the time consumption vs difficultly of obtaining Threads without doing Trials or TFs. To balance it out more for TFs they would drop during a normal TF at the same rate as Shards, slower than they normally drop in a trial, and not at all during regular missions. There could be a potential problem with this though as it could actually cause Threads to be easier to obtain than Shards and helping to eliminate Shards entirely. Unfortunately that's the problem with having multiple different currencies. There's no way to really balance out everything properly, Threads are always going to be more valuable than Shards unless the conversion works in both directions.
To put it simply lets say that Quarters represent Shards and Dollars represent Threads. Now you can actually exchange or convert 4 quarters into 1 dollar or 1 dollar into 4 quarters. But some people don't like to carrey small change on them so they prefer the dollar to the 4 quarters. Really unless you're getting change for laundry or you're 5 years old there isn't much use for quarters. So lets say that laundry mats start taking bills instead of quarters and thoughts quarter machines for kids no longer exist. That would create a one way conversion process where no one would ever trade 1 dollar for 4 quarters. Now we already have this kind of one way conversion which tells me that Shards are more useless than quarters are.
There's also the fact that, while not recommended, you can potentially take a roll of quarters worth $20 and use that in place of a $20 bill without converting it at all. You can't however, take shards and spend them as if they were Threads because the value simply isn't equal.
Of course the exchange rate is all off anyway but sense we're thinking of this as a form of currency I figured real currency would be a good comparison.
Long story short.
Threads > Shards
Fix it so they're equal.
Okay because I am confused, let me ask this:
I have a character that has the Alpha slot unlocked but to date I haven't yet made use of it at all (I haven't yet gotten the shards and salvage I needed to create the Boost I wanted). I played in a Lamda Raid this weekend and now have a bunch of threads and some of the non alpha incarnate salvage that I earned from the raid. Right not I only have three shards. This thread seems to indicate the Incarnate XP and threads I earned are an alternate way to progress through the alpha slot. Is that true?
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Originally Posted by Hy-Beams
Okay because I am confused, let me ask this:
I have a character that has the Alpha slot unlocked but to date I haven't yet made use of it at all (I haven't yet gotten the shards and salvage I needed to create the Boost I wanted). I played in a Lamda Raid this weekend and now have a bunch of threads and some of the non alpha incarnate salvage that I earned from the raid. Right not I only have three shards. This thread seems to indicate the Incarnate XP and threads I earned are an alternate way to progress through the alpha slot. Is that true? |
You can use threads to create alpha components but it is a really really bad deal.
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Keep in mind that you can't mix and match shard components and thread components when you make your alpha slot. It's all or nothing.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You can use threads to create alpha components but it is a really really bad deal.
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According to the original I20 patch notes, mobs in Trials shouldn't be dropping Shards at all, so I guess that's currently bugged.
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Surprise
Well, mobs in BAF are dropping both shards and threads, so there is a way in-game to give different drop rates.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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Its happening when you hosp. For some reason this hospital in the trials are on a different map or flagged differently, so that you don't get iXP or threads while in the hospital from kills (that your team did) but you do get a chance to get shards. Once you leave the hospital, you start earning iXP and threads again..|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
According to the original I20 patch notes, mobs in Trials shouldn't be dropping Shards at all, so I guess that's currently bugged.
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Not sure why its working that way, and it is probably a bug, but thats what is causing it.
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I received a Shard while at the beginning of a Lambda run fighting the initial mobs surrounding the facility; nobody had died at that point, so in my case the hospital wasn't a factor. The bug seems to be more far-reaching than just the hospital map (at least in my experience).
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Its happening when you hosp. For some reason this hospital in the trials are on a different map or flagged differently, so that you don't get iXP or threads while in the hospital from kills (that your team did) but you do get a chance to get shards. Once you leave the hospital, you start earning iXP and threads again..
Not sure why its working that way, and it is probably a bug, but thats what is causing it. |
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I got the impression that Shards are more of a single player tool to advance and threads are team/raid rewards to advance.
As such I dont see a problem with them coexisting. Many people like to be able to complete just about everything on their own one way or another.
It wont be fast, you could however, get all your slots and fill them just running tips and radio missions.
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Is that only for the initial slot, or could I use threads to make a tier 3 Spiritual, for example?
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You can use threads to create alpha components but it is a really really bad deal.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
After Alpha, shards are next to completely useless. The conversion rate is a joke.
Lets say a diligent player can get around 10 shards a day. That (forget the inf cost atm) comes out the 10 threads a day. 1 successful BAF will net you likely 4-5 threads... and 4-5 Astral Merits. Each of those break apart for 4 threads, so basically a single 30 min run will get you 16-25 threads. And that's not even counting your 1/day (well 2 if you run both trials) E-merits that break for 20 threads a pop, and the reward table at the end which will invariably lead to a surplus of uncommons that again break apart for threads. Basically, for an hour a day, I can easily get 100+ threads.
Use your shards for Alpha slots, and save the rest for hopes that they'll be used again (I'm thinking for Omega--complete & baseless speculation tho). Don't convert them to threads. If you need that last 3-4 threads to craft a slot, do just part of any trial and you'll get that in less than 10min.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
hmmmm i like the old shards, but i also like the new threads
well theres only one way to sort it out, FIGHT!!!!!!!! 
Defiant: "@Felix"
ATO Felix - Gamma Anne - Fire me Boy!
Kit the Kat - Black Felix - Gremlet
Shadow Sorceress - Dr Doom and Gloom - Rob Rubble
Mitzy White - Wanda Smith - Henry Remo
The threads use void judgement and end up dropping 3 shards from their kills 
The whole Thread/Shard thing is designed as an alternative path to Incarnate content. Mostly for solo players or people that for whatever reason don't like TFs.
The time span is slow for sure but not unreachable. But soloists should know that the Incarnate road is a long one.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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Same happened for me. I got the shard during the first phase, where you need to defeat 40 before Nightstar shows up. Other than that, I've only gotten threads/components.
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Originally Posted by Eric Nelson
I received a Shard while at the beginning of a Lambda run fighting the initial mobs surrounding the facility; nobody had died at that point, so in my case the hospital wasn't a factor. The bug seems to be more far-reaching than just the hospital map (at least in my experience).
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I find your lack of signature disturbing.
Well it looks like you need both for Alpha slot now. check out the Tier2's you will notice..
[Cardiac Boost]
Detailed Reports
Biomorphic Goo
Gluon Compound
you need Threads for the Biomorphic Goo, But somehow i dont think threads will start dropping like shards 
Junkyard Wolf
California Smog(CoV)
Far Rider
Durango Dave
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There's actually two recipes for Alpha boosts now; you can either make the boost with the shard recipe, or now you can use a recipe that utilizes threads. Don't have the details in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure that the shard recipe doesn't require components from the Trials, nor does the thread recipe require any of the components shards build (unless you count building threads out of 'em).
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Originally Posted by Junkyard_Wolf
Well it looks like you need both for Alpha slot now. check out the Tier2's you will notice..
[Cardiac Boost] Detailed Reports Biomorphic Goo Gluon Compound you need Threads for the Biomorphic Goo, But somehow i dont think threads will start dropping like shards |
This seems a little odd to me. I mean we just got the Alpha Slot and the Shards and stuff that comes with that and it seems like they're already trying to phase that out for a new system. Why give us the system in the first place if you're just going to replace it with something else a little while later?
The reasons I think it's being phased out is because rather than using the same system we already had for Shards to be used for the 4 new slots they gave us an entirely new system, the Incarnate Threads and all the new salvage that came with that.
Now that alone is not why I think Shards are being phased out. The real thing to consider is this. The Alpha Slot itself is now using the new Thread system as well. If you scroll down on any Alpha Slot enhancement you'll see that all of the existing Alpha Slot stuff can be created from the new Thread Salvage as well as the old Shard Salvage. This would be fine except that the reverse is not true. The old Shard Salvage can not be used to create Enhancements for the 4 new slots only for the Alpha Slot.
I've also noticed that you can use Shards and convert them into Threads but you can't use Threads and convert them into Shards.
Because of this Threads are becoming more useful than Shards which will eventually stop the use of Shards all together. I see this as being a HUGE problem because right now there are more ways to get Shards than there are to get Threads. I find it significantly more fun to be able to do more with my Incarnate in that I have the option to do different TFs or even run regular missions as a way to collect Shards. Threads on the other hand only seem to drop during the Lambda or BAF Trials which means I have allot less to do with my characters. I would rather have one system or two entirely interchangeable systems rather than one system replacing the other.
By interchangeable I mean if we're going to have both Threads and Shards then we should be able to convert them both ways. Right now we can only make Shards into Threads not the other way around. And Enhancements should be creatable using the old salvage for the new slots. Either that or remove the ability to create Alpha Slot Enhancements using the new system and remove the ability to turn Shards into Threads. It should be completely interchangeable or not at all. This one way street is making one system more valuable than the other and they should be equal to each other.
I don't mind having the new trials but I don't like the feeling that by issue 21 the only way I'll be able to do anything is by running the same two trials over and over again. I want to be able to choose trial or TF not be forced into one over the other and there are simply allot more TFs than there are trials so I don't feel the need to repeat the same TF 5 times a day like I do with the Trials.
To show the actual value of Shards vs Threads...
When it was just Shards the value of them is = to 100% This is because at the time there were no other options so Shards had nothing to compete with.
With the addition of Threads the value SHOULD be Shards = 50% Threads = 50% This would make them equally desirable by the player base as an alternative for getting all 5 slots.
But what the value is, just an estimate Shards = 16-20% Threads = 80-85%, this is because Threads can be used on all 5 slots while Shards remain restricted to the Alpha Slot and the reason the % isn't a solid number is because of the one way conversion. Some players like myself may still be using Shards for the Alpha Slot making it Shard 20% Thread 80% while others may now be ignoring Shards except to covert them into threads making it Shards 16% Threads 85%. And there may be people in between the two extremes who aren't completely ignoring Shards but aren't against using them to form Threads either. In any case there no where near to equal value.
Now I'd just like to point out that non of this has to do with Drop Rates which is fine. Threads do drop more often but it also takes allot more of them to make a component so it balances out. This is just about Shards being useful for 1/5 slots as apposed to Threads being useful for 5/5 slots.