Quote:
You keep saying supply outstrips demand but the supply is infinite now. Second if manipulation or price fixing wasnt going on we would get to see what the real demand is. Until manipulation is pulled out of the equation all supply demand arguements you marketeers keep using are null and void. If the items sells fast its not your job to police the supply of it. Its just as bad as some of the users here who think they are mods. If it all sells out that gives the next seller the advantage to sell some what higher in response to the true demand and not the manipulated demand. Thats how its supposed to work and thats how it works on games where you get to see the listed price.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
You've been told this time and again. Weren't you listening?
Because demand outstrips supply. Both natural drops and through artificial generation (tickets, merits, A-Merits). Because some people are impatient. They don't WANT to invest the time into generating those recipes themselves. They'd rather pay a premium price to have it NOW. Because some people have MASSIVE coffers of inf. Because 500 million isn't even a fraction of a percent of their total wealth. Because, if other sellers are pulling down 9 digits on a recipe, why the hell should another seller settle for 100 inf? See the reasons above. Simply because someone can take several months and several hundred million inf to produce a recipe does not mean they will. The fact that you're griping so hard about this implies you're one of this unfortunate population statistic. No. It's not. Were everyone being industrious and knocking out morality missions left-right-and-center, cashing in merits, etc, etc, etc. Sure, you might be right. But they're not. You have several classes of player whom don't do this. As such, they're reliant on the market for their supply. And, if they want it now, they pay correspondingly higher prices. Stop blaming seller greed for what is, actually, buyer greed. If it goes for that price long enough, then that IS what it's going for. Remember, the sale price is set by the buyer. Wrong. Flippers help stabilize supply and pricing. If Recipe X is going for 100 inf and is in heavy demand, the market supply will soon be exhausted. A flipper, by acquiring large stocks of the desirable item, ensure that, with their higher pricing, that the item is still available down the road to other players. They also set a barrier of entry against dilettante hoarders. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
Thats kind of 2 way street there. If people arent putting the items on the market to sell generated by merits they arent buying certain items either. While it isnt adding to the supply its definately taking away from the demand which why we should have no non-purple/pvp recipes above 40 million. I think the issue is not enough people know about A-merits if they did prices would be alot lower as a result.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Hey Ryu, it was good doing the TinMage TF with you last week. But I have to say, you may be looking at all this the wrong way. If you don't want to add to the problem (you see) of the market, then DESTROYING SUPPLY, isn't the best way to go about fighting it.
I know, you don't believe Supply/Demand is relevant as an argument since you think things like A-Merits should negate the supply issue. The problem is, you assume everyone is going to use those merits to flood the market. More than likely, most people use it to avoid the market without placing those items there. This means supply doesn't really change. Supply/Demand is still the issue for the prices you see. Low bids and patience is all anyone needs to navigate the market if they want to pinch pennies. |
I choose to give away recipes to those who truely need them or just destroy recipe simply because I do not see another way of doing this withouth adding to the market greed we have now. I will not ever put stuff on the market to sell just so another person can make free inf for doing nothing and not add value to the product. If another valid solution can be suggested please let me know.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
I cannot possibly stress how incorrect this statement is.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
You keep saying supply outstrips demand but the supply is infinite now.
|
Supply is not just about how many of something can theoretically be produced. It's about the rate at which something is produced. I promise you, absolutely and unarguably, that the rate at which the playerbase is producing anything we talk about in this forum is not infinite.
When we say demand is greater than supply for a widget, we mean that the rate at which players want to use, slot or consume the widget is greater than the rate at which players are producing widgets. When that happens, a method needs to be used to prioritize who gets the next widget that's produced, because at any given time, more than one person will want it. This game uses a method of letting people sell widgets on the market, and it prioritizes the acquisition of the person who bids the most inf. You want the next widget put on the market? You get it if you bid the most of the other people asking for one when it arrives.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I spent 25 minutes the other night switching characters until I could find one who was far enough from the cap to claim the 450,000,000 I mailed myself so that I could continue my ebil marketeering activities.|
Originally Posted by Cully
And another thing... Dude's got a point. Increase wealth cap, to like 10bil. That's reasonabe, I think.... Good idea!
|
Thankfully, I have unused spots on other servers, or my avarice might have to actually know bounds.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Quote:
Out of all my 50s I probably just have under a billion inf. I dont see myself ever breaking 1 billion at least any time soon (grumbles at incarnate conversion costs). Playing the game so much that money flows like water just isnt normal to me thats what I am saying. Yes I know is pretend money but thats not the point. I am not a hardcore farmer and I have a life outside of the game.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
One of the most critical flaws in Ryu's thinking is the core assumption that everyone else shares his priorities. He's got a strong personal objection to paying what he considers "too much" money for stuff on the market, so he does other stuff instead. He completely cannot see that other people can earn enough money so fast that what he considers "too much" is just not that scary to them, and they'd rather fork out 100+M than run 20 tip and two alignment missions.
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I get what you mean that time is money and that some people choose to do it in other ways. For example in real life I refuse to shop at my local walmart at all possible costs. Simply because the lines are way too long. Everytime I have ever gone there the lines are like its black friday or something even if its after midnight. I choose to shop else where because that store is managed badly in terms of checking out customers. While say target may be slightly more expensive I save time at the expense of money but at the sametime not allowing walmart to benefit from treating their customers badly.
How I could apply this to coh? Lets say I team with someone and a recipe drops that I want and they link it in chat. If we had a market system thats not double blind and the only ones for sell are from someone you know is a manipulator, I would sooner pay slightly more for the recipe that just dropped than from someone who is just buying to resell because the player on the team is actually doing something to generate that recipe. I hope that makes it a bit more clear. Its not so much the flipping but the getting something for nothing aspect of it.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
The same thing can be said about jobs in the real world. I know some school systems make certain programs harder not just because they want better students but so they can pass fewer students allowing fewer to enter the job market just so the salary ranges stay at a certain level. I found this out when my wife recently entered the nursing program at her school.
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Originally Posted by Cully
Perhaps their freakishly common appearance in almost all useful recipes? Oh, and the fact that they've been that price since they were fixed that way YEARS ago by what again? Oh yes, BM Borkers. The BM Borkers have won that market because they adamantly refuse to budge on the asking price. I've creeper bid, I've let a toon sit on bids of 1k increments up to the 50k mark, JUST to see if I could get one that cheap. I can't. Why? Because the sellers at 150k already have a lot of bids out there to buy up anyone trying to undercut them. It's gotten so one sided on some items, that there really IS no other option than to try your luck on a roll, do some low level content, or find SOME OTHER means to acquire one. But the BM? Pffft, not happenin, not for less than 150k per.
In fact, actually, why doesn't everyone just take a break and read up on DeBeers and why diamonds are so expensive. Quick summary? They only release so many to the market a year, just to keep the prices high. They are literally sitting on hundreds of tons of diamonds, just sittin on them, why? To make sure they control BOTH supply and demand. And that's a helluva gig lemme tellya. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Quote:
You of all people should know that this road can only lead to madness.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I cannot possibly stress how incorrect this statement is.
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Quote:
The thing is, the market generates a lot more wealth than farming ever can. Or more accurately the wealth standard used on the market is effectively an order of magnitude higher than the wealth standard from playing the game (whether you farm or not).|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Out of all my 50s I probably just have under a billion inf. I dont see myself ever breaking 1 billion at least any time soon (grumbles at incarnate conversion costs). Playing the game so much that money flows like water just isnt normal to me thats what I am saying. Yes I know is pretend money but thats not the point. I am not a hardcore farmer and I have a life outside of the game.
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The market removes 10% of the inf used in every transaction and is the largest inf sink in the game (in fact you could probably say that to a first degree approximation it's the only inf sink in the game). What this means is that every inf generated by playing the game will generate 10 inf worth of market transaction (well slightly less than that but it's close enough for our purposes).
This means that market prices are actually scaled to 10 times the value of inf from playing the game. This in turn means that the wealth of those who actively participate int he market will be, on average, 10 times the wealth of those who don't and it is the peopel who do participate that sets prices.
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No. Supply CAN be effectively infinite. But the ACTUAL production rates are still lower than demand right now. As supply at any given moment is outstripped by demand at any given moment, we fail to see price reductions.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
You keep saying supply outstrips demand but the supply is infinite now.
|
Quote:
| Second if manipulation or price fixing wasnt going on we would get to see what the real demand is. Until manipulation is pulled out of the equation all supply demand arguements you marketeers keep using are null and void. |
Quote:
| If the items sells fast its not your job to police the supply of it. |
If you dislike this status quo, the problem is entirely yours.
People don't necessarily fill these roles for philanthropic reasons. But simply because they realize a profit off their efforts doesn't mean they aren't serving said purpose.
And if you think the market as-is sucks so bad, you'd HATE it were there not people in there acting as price controls. Fortunately for you, such a situation is utterly impossible unless nobody actually uses the market.
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| Its just as bad as some of the users here who think they are mods. |
Quote:
| If it all sells out that gives the next seller the advantage to sell some what higher in response to the true demand and not the manipulated demand. |
...
*HEADDESK*
...
But..
*HEADDESK*
What you're describing is the very sort of "market manipulation" that you're bellyaching about! Please formulate a coherent position before posting again please.
(That should shut him up for a couple years...)
Quote:
| Thats how its supposed to work and thats how it works on games where you get to see the listed price. |
You've proven time and again that you don't know "how it's supposed to work". All you know is you can't get your stuff for cheap for RIGHT NAO. Thus you gripe.
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong - I don't think most of us crank out a billion a day or anything like that. There's a thread asking about that specific rate (a billion a day) and pretty much all the regulars in this forum were like "newp, not me".|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Out of all my 50s I probably just have under a billion inf. I dont see myself ever breaking 1 billion at least any time soon (grumbles at incarnate conversion costs). Playing the game so much that money flows like water just isnt normal to me thats what I am saying. Yes I know is pretend money but thats not the point. I am not a hardcore farmer and I have a life outside of the game.
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But most of the things* that cost hundreds of millions or billions of inf are explicitly extremely rare. Going back to the discussion about supply and demand rates, the rate of demand for purple IO pieces way outstrips supply, so even if people aren't raking in billions a day, they're willing to work towards those purples. Even if you aren't a farmer or marketeer you can crank out 10M a day playing a 50 on high settings. That kind of inf earning rate makes purples distant goals for a lot of players, but that's intentional.
*The things that aren't extremely rare but still cost 100M+ are extremely highly demanded. LotGs are a good example - they provide something most people interested in IOs see as useful and most characters can slot two to five of them. They likely get produced fairly often, but demand for what is produced is very high.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
So, instead of simply producing for yourself, or finding a way to capitalize on what you DO produce now, you're going to insist that everyone else play the same way that you do?|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Out of all my 50s I probably just have under a billion inf. I dont see myself ever breaking 1 billion at least any time soon (grumbles at incarnate conversion costs). Playing the game so much that money flows like water just isnt normal to me thats what I am saying. Yes I know is pretend money but thats not the point. I am not a hardcore farmer and I have a life outside of the game.
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Uh. NO!
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Quote:
Trying to educate an ardent and unthinking market hater as to the realities of the market system?|
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
You of all people should know that this road can only lead to madness.
|
Here, you're going to need one of these.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Making markets (or "flipping" in your terms) can be extremely profitable. It just depends on what you are making markets in. Common salvage, probably not so much. But it's a great way to get your sell badges.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Pure flipping generally doesn't yield worthwhile results over time (and per ounce of effort). There are exceptional cases -- flipping purples, for instance -- but the purportedly populist complaints about flippers or market manipulators most often arise from the wild variance of very low-value items, most often common salvage.
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Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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I don't flip salvage or enhancements, as a general rule, but flipping 10-packs of recipes is extraordinarily lucrative. And it takes very little time to do.
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Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
Making markets (or "flipping" in your terms) can be extremely profitable. It just depends on what you are making markets in. Common salvage, probably not so much. But it's a great way to get your sell badges.
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I'd just like to add ...
Great thread, Cully. would read again. I say this in the nicest way possible - as rants go, yours are humorous and well done. PM meh if you go off on a rant again
Over the years, the following claim has been repeatedly and adamantly made: manipulators are creating grossly inflated prices and are destroying the market.
I don't put a lot of weight into this claim for the following reasons:
- Every time I've seen someone make this claim, they also admit (implicitly or explicitly) that they barely use the market or they avoid it entirely. Where they get off speaking with a voice of authority about something they're willfully ignorant of, I dunno... but there it is.
- Every time I've seen this claim made, it's been revealed that the person making the claim doesn't actually understand how many people play the game or play the market. I have yet to see a single one of these posters describe how I make my billions.
- If the market were controlled by manipulators in the way that's been claimed, crashes wouldn't happen often, if at all, right? But they have happened and they continue to happen. Even the previously believed unassailable Luck Charm has crashed. At one point, shortly after GR's launch, I was buying them for 500 inf a piece.
- There are many other ways to make a profit than trying to gouge an item on the market. These methods are: 1. more efficient, 2. less time intensive, 3. less resource intensive, 4. less risky, 5. aren't difficult to figure out if one is familiar with the market, 6. result in a much, much larger return. "Marketeers" are, by definition, familiar with the market. So, the idea that they're all engaging in an inefficient, risky, cumbersome timesuck for little return, when there are obvious and better options is just... well... silly. No one is making quick billions screwing with salvage. That's just a fact.
- Many attempts have been made to manipulate items in this fashion for huge, sustainable profit. To my knowledge, they've all failed. Another attempt was made just recently, chronicled in another thread. It didn't work, just as I and others predicted. Surely, if the market were operating the way some have claimed, at least a few of these attempts would've been successful.
- Other experiments have been conducted that've demonstrated that marketeers just don't have the power over the market that's often claimed. Just recently (last week), due to an initiative launched in this forum, the supply of Demonic Threat Reports was bought out. They went from 20,000+ available to just a few dozen. Did some manipulator then move in and jack the cost up? No. Instead, supply's back up into the hundreds, and they're still selling for below vendor price. Also, some time back, there was a concerted effort made by marketeers to crash Luck Charms. It failed completely. If the dynamics of the market were as many have claimed, these two situations (and others) would've played out much differently.
- I make my inf by predicting how changes in the game will affect how people play it, and how that, in turn, will impact the market. If the market operated in the way others have described--controlled by manipulators--my method shouldn't work that well. But it does. And I have multiple characters at the inf cap to prove it.
I don't farm.
I don't gouge.
I never try to corner anything.
I have billions.
If the market is dominated by manipulators, please explain to me how I've managed that without being one of them.
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Quote:
This. I sell what I produce, and I buy what I need. I hunt for bargains. I have 10 50s, every one of them is steeped in things like Kinetic Combat, LotGs, and purples, where appropriate. (Every 50 has at least one set of purples, and some have as many as four sets slotted.) I bought a PvP 3% defense from another player. Every one of 10 50s has between 1.3 and 3.0 billion inf in liquid cash.|
Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
I don't farm.
I don't gouge.* I never try to corner anything. I have billions. If the market is dominated by manipulators, please explain to me how I've managed that without being one of them. |
I don't farm. I don't marketeer. I am rich. I made that money by killing stuff and selling stuff. I play 50s a lot.
I didn't make it all at once. I made it over the course of months. I'm not claiming that everyone will produce inf at the rate that I can, but I know there are people who can produce it a lot faster than I do. There are people with a lot more inf or stored valuable items than me. None of those people are keeping me from earning an awful lot of inf. In fact, I'm pretty sure they help me, because I sell them stuff at awfully high prices all the time.
Which gets to the asterisk I added to the quote above. I'm not sure what "gouging" means. I charge the going rate for stuff. I price it to move, which means I list stuff below the going rate to try and score the sale, but I'm not interested in market charity - I don't price so low that I think bargain hunters will easily buy my goods. (And if there's none of something for sale, I'll go for the gusto and aim high.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
NOT TRUE. We didn't get the number of bids to 0, but we did bring the price down to under 9000 inf. By dumping, over about eight hours, something like 6,000 Luck Charms. I don't remember the exact number. Which it took us about two months to amass. Anyway, there were still 2300 bids for Luck Charms under 9K. I know for a fact that LC's at that point had not been under 30,000 inf for months. | Also, some time back, there was a concerted effort made by marketeers to crash Luck Charms. It failed completely. |
(the next morning? 30K to 45K.)
It failed PARTIALLY.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Oh, and Cully, when you say
Quote:
What you're actually saying is "I'm not going to do the work to spend 5 minutes reading it, but I want you to spend 30 minutes writing it." ******** on that. |
Essentially, I'm asking for someone to please try and really honestly justify a 100k for common salvage price, a 3b price for a ridiculous recipe, or just the general asshattery involved with the BM. Seeing as how I have yet to see a rationalized complete argument, we'll just continue shooting from the hip and hope one learns to read more accurately in the future. GENERIC DISCLAIMER: I lose track of thought and the argument itself really doesn't justify the expense of effort to really get into it. So, if i miss what you feel is a salient point to the argument, kindly repost that part with as inventive language as possible, and we'll go over it again] |
So. The five minute post:
100K for a piece of common salvage destroys 10K of in-game currency (in fees.) There are people who create 5 MILLION inf an hour, cash that wasn't in the game before. Rounding up to 6 million, that's 100K per minute. So what you're saying is that it's ridiculous for someone ELSE to spend 60 seconds of their time getting the inf to buy a shiny.
Or you're saying it's ridiculous for a piece of salvage (given the 10:1 ratio) to be worth 10K, which is SIX seconds of someone's time. The 10:1 is because you burn the salvage and you burn the 10K; the other 90K sticks around to get spent by the next person.
As far as the ridiculous 3 billion inf recipe: You're telling me that 30 days of work and patience is NOT worth 100 million inf a day. That's certainly an opinion, but it's one that is not shared by people who have 3 billion inf, who play a lot more than YOU do, and who have one thing left to buy. You can continue with your moral stance and they'll continue buying the things you don't want.
Or you can try doing the work to get one yourself and see if you'd prefer to spend 3 billion inf instead.
Time's up!
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
To engage in swindling, overcharging, or the like.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm not sure what "gouging" means.
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Quote:
The problem is that different people use different definitions of "overcharging". Personally my opinion is that if the item sells at all then you aren't gouging: someone was willing to pay the price and at the time they paid it no one else was offering it for less. However certain people use a definition of gouging that is defined as "more than they personally are willing to pay".
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Originally Posted by Hydrophidian
To engage in swindling, overcharging, or the like.
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Quote:
Well, as you were one of the participants in the effort, I'll defer to your estimation of its success... or lack thereof. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
NOT TRUE. We didn't get the number of bids to 0, but we did bring the price down to under 9000 inf. By dumping, over about eight hours, something like 6,000 Luck Charms. I don't remember the exact number. Which it took us about two months to amass. Anyway, there were still 2300 bids for Luck Charms under 9K. I know for a fact that LC's at that point had not been under 30,000 inf for months.
(the next morning? 30K to 45K.) It failed PARTIALLY. |
But... if marketeers actually had the level of control and power that's sometimes attributed to them, such an effort should have created more than a fleeting dip in price.
On that front, it failed to demonstrate what some people keep claiming is the way things work on the market.
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Quote:
I'm referring specifically to the practices often described by people making these claims (there's one described in this very thread).|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The problem is that different people use different definitions of "overcharging".
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I don't engage in those practices.
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Quote:
New to posting on the forums, long time player here...|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Out of all my 50s I probably just have under a billion inf. I dont see myself ever breaking 1 billion at least any time soon (grumbles at incarnate conversion costs). Playing the game so much that money flows like water just isnt normal to me thats what I am saying. Yes I know is pretend money but thats not the point. I am not a hardcore farmer and I have a life outside of the game.
|
Until about three months ago, I was one of the people who looked on, green with envy at the players had billions and billions inf in the bank, thinking to myself there's no way I would ever achieve a billion across ALL my characters, let alone one. Fast forward to today, and my main marketing character is sitting on about 3 billion in banked inf and bids. Total extra effort required? About five minutes in the morning to log in, claim recipes and salvage, craft IOs, and list them... and about five minutes in the evening to log in, claim proceeds, and place bids for more recipes and salvage. Turns out, it's easy as pie to make inf by doing little more than supplying crafted IOs from easily obtained recipes and salvage.
Am I "part of the problem" by taking a recipe and salvage bought for pennies, spending 490k to craft a Level 50 IO, and selling it for multiple millions? I'm certainly not forcing anyone to buy anything.
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