What an awful, awful person. This is the least helpful, most negative "guide" I've ever seen.
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I lol'd.
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Originally Posted by Ruff_Tuff_n_Buff
What an awful, awful person. This is the least helpful, most negative "guide" I've ever seen.
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Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
This is some good advice at how not to be bad at melee.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Since Hot Feet makes stuff run away, not get Taunted, not really. |
Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
Does Hot Feet Count?
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Originally Posted by Rad_Avenger
Isn't that what you wrote, above? I could have sworn you wrote:
Perhaps I'm dense (I get that a lot). |
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
[...]Yeah, you can kill a room by yourself, but can you do it in ten seconds? With a team, you can. You can take on Nictified Romulus...that's great, but can you bring him down fast? On a team with some good debuffs, you can.
I like where you're focusing as much on the "What you SHOULD be doing" as much as the "How you can do it." Most builds can. Not many should when there's better options. |
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Originally Posted by Ruff_Tuff_n_Buff
What an awful, awful person. This is the least helpful, most negative "guide" I've ever seen.
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In other words:
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Note that not all taunt auras tick quickly. Several tick in two-second intervals. You can run right through a large group and never hit anything on a two-second interval, so sometimes it pays to taunt on your way in. Specifically, taunt something (preferably a boss or lieut) up front as you jump over them and let your aura kick in on the middle/back of the group. Everything will turn around and fire at you, which will keep cones and AOEs from hitting your team.
That's another key to positioning. You don't want the squishies at your back, because cone AOEs will hit them. Spin key opponents around so that they fire their cones harmlessly at you and the empty space behind you.
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hahhahaha........ha|
Originally Posted by Ruff_Tuff_n_Buff
What an awful, awful person. This is the least helpful, most negative "guide" I've ever seen.
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Excellent work Mr. Silas, fun read and pretty much everything I expected. =)
This. Exactly how I do it. I target a boss or lieutenant in the front or middle of the mob and I jump over their head taunting as I do. The taunt animation will automatically swing my character back around facing the mob that is now facing me. Then I pretty much use footstomp and fireball vigorously and taunting anything on the outskirts (as needed) that might be messing with my teammates as they come in and steamroll. I by no means consider melee as my strongest characters being I don't care for them much but its not exactly rocket science.
P.s. Rad + Hotfeet out herds/damages/pulls aggro than any melee toon I have ever seen. Capped HP build with some decent damage resistance numbers and a luck or 2 inspiration will survive just as well too. :-) Not that I practice that personally being I love to faceplant. Just sayin.
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I understand Wentworths will be selling sense of humor's come I20, you should put your order in early.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
Note that not all taunt auras tick quickly. Several tick in two-second intervals. You can run right through a large group and never hit anything on a two-second interval, so sometimes it pays to taunt on your way in. Specifically, taunt something (preferably a boss or lieut) up front as you jump over them and let your aura kick in on the middle/back of the group. Everything will turn around and fire at you, which will keep cones and AOEs from hitting your team.
That's another key to positioning. You don't want the squishies at your back, because cone AOEs will hit them. Spin key opponents around so that they fire their cones harmlessly at you and the empty space behind you. |
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Originally Posted by Ruff_Tuff_n_Buff
What an awful, awful person. This is the least helpful, most negative "guide" I've ever seen.
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The orignal comment made me chuckle, this made me laugh!
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
I understand Wentworths will be selling sense of humor's come I20, you should put your order in early.
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Bam:|
Originally Posted by streetlight
Note that not all taunt auras tick quickly. Several tick in two-second intervals. You can run right through a large group and never hit anything on a two-second interval, so sometimes it pays to taunt on your way in. Specifically, taunt something (preferably a boss or lieut) up front as you jump over them and let your aura kick in on the middle/back of the group. Everything will turn around and fire at you, which will keep cones and AOEs from hitting your team.
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Originally Posted by Silas
This gives a sizeable advantage to non-damage Taunt auras because they tick more quickly and tend to have an autohit component. With something like AAO, Invincibility and to a lesser extent, RttC you can literally run past something and itll be taunted on you.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
hahhahaha........ha
Excellent work Mr. Silas, fun read and pretty much everything I expected. =) |
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
[...]but its not exactly rocket science.
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I heard that you're a butt.
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Originally Posted by Silas
But what do I know, I'm an awful, awful person
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I'll always be a "Champion" at heart. My server away from home.
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
"With great moustache comes great responsibility" - Zee Captain
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Originally Posted by Horusaurus
I heard that you're a butt.
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Nice work Silas.
I agree with pretty much all of it, but with one nitpick;
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Brutes exist in a state of competition for aggro. Having aggro helps both the Brute (making them punch harder) and the Brute's team (keeping them from being punched hard).|
Originally Posted by Silas
If there are other melee dudes on the team, you want to be cooperating with them for aggro, not competing with them. Yes, it is hilarious and rad to wrench aggro off a Tanker by dint of kicking orders of magnitude more anus, but most of the time its not gonna help the team any more.
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Not all Brutes are designed to hold the lion's share of aggro; but the ones who are, do not require a Tanker to "save" them and there is no reason for such a Brute to specifically relinquish aggro to a Tanker in such circumstances.
Brutes and Tankers can co-exist on the same team (it's not a myth!), but it often requires a bit of ego-swallowing on both parts and often the Tanker's in particular.
Brutes that can handle the aggro they generate should be left to do so, they also tend to focus on dealing damage, because they can.
Tankers in this instance should re-prioritize, and focus on gathering excess aggro that can spill onto the squishies - especially in hectic AV fights (let's say end of the ITF, or end of LGTF) the endless waves of lower tier enemies are often the greatest threat to the support crew as opposed to the AV who will most likely be totally locked down by any competent melee engaged with said AV (if they aren't already debuffed into jelly)
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That sounds suspiciously like cooperating, which is what Silas said.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Tankers in this instance should re-prioritize, and focus on gathering excess aggro that can spill onto the squishies
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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Originally Posted by Aneko
That sounds suspiciously like cooperating, which is what Silas said.
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If you're saying, that Silas said, that Tankers should work to cooperate with Brutes so Brutes can deal optimal damage - then I suppose I missed it in his post. |
Originally Posted by Aneko
That sounds suspiciously like cooperating, which is what Silas said.
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I'll let you quote that part to me later since I seem to be hard of reading.
Instead what I read was,
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Originally Posted by Silas
Yes, it is hilarious and rad to wrench aggro off a Tanker by dint of kicking orders of magnitude more anus, but most of the time its not gonna help the team any more.
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And it helps the team, by stuff being dead faster.
What I posted was that the Tanker should re-prioritize, and what is written there states that the Tanker should have aggro.
I wasn't saying that the Tanker should have aggro, only that you shouldn't always fight them for it.
People fighting over aggro can often be counterproductive. My experience of playing my Brute on teams is that I can get plenty of Fury just attacking, I don't need the entire spawn aggroed on me. Of course, the more is aggroed on me the better, but if a Tanker has a lot of aggro its not a big deal.
You've gotta be responsible for your own Fury to a certain extent. You can't really expect a Tanker to take a backseat and not fight as much so that you're always at max Fury.
Ideally, you'd be cooperating so you've both got lots of stuff aggroed on you. Less stray aggro for the squishies, Tanker feels good since he's taking hits and in the thick of things and you've got good Fury.
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The statement you quoted is, in fact, followed by a passage specifically aimed at aggroing and/or herding up different spawns -- that is, situations above the aggro cap for any one character. If the Tanker already has aggro on a given target (or set of targets), and there are other targets whose anuses you can kick, then you should probably direct your foot at the latter group.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
What I posted was that the Tanker should re-prioritize, and what is written there states that the Tanker should have aggro. |
You seem to be saying that Silas misspoke because you think the Tanker should have to adjust to you instead of the other way around. Either way, the message is the same: you shouldn't be competing with each other for aggro if you can help it. The Tank shouldn't be spamming Taunt like a slack-jawed ninny on targets you've already got under control, and you shouldn't go out of your way to show off your epeen by drawing aggro from him when there are other things you could be doing instead.
If you and the Tanker can't help competing for aggro -- usually because there's a shortage of targets -- then them's the breaks. If he's significantly more sturdy than you, the Tanker should try to do everything in his power to keep aggro away from you (and he ought to be able to do that, all else being equal). If he's not significantly more sturdy than you (which is a distinct possibility given teammate buffs and/or differences in powerset selection), then he should just attack normally, prioritizing DPS over aggro management.
Personally, if I'm on my Tanker on a team with a Brute on it, I usually relax a bit on the aggro soaking until and unless the Brute faceplants doing something that I feel I would comfortably survive. Obviously I don't conduct exhaustive interviews prior to teaming with other meleers, so a lot of this stuff is based on feel. You're right to the extent that some Tankers seem intent that they should have 100% aggro, 100% of the time -- which is silly in many if not most team situations -- but the AT is purpose-built for protecting teammates, and thus by default Tankers probably should try to hold the vast bulk of the available aggro.
Of course, it also should go without saying that the word "Tanker" isn't necessarily specific to the Archetype. We could just as easily be talking about a team with a Brute acting as tanker, with Scrappers/Stalkers/VEATs along for the ride. In some situations, a Brute may actually be a better so-called main tank than the Tanker present, given differences in powerset selection. Team roles aren't synonymous with AT roles.
And after all that, all I've managed to do is restate what was pretty clearly conveyed by Silas' original, singular sentence. It's interesting what a difference emphasis makes:
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Originally Posted by Silas
Yes, it is hilarious and rad to wrench aggro off a Tanker by dint of kicking orders of magnitude more anus, but most of the time its not gonna help the team any more.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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That statement is probably guide-worthy too |
Originally Posted by Silas
You've gotta be responsible for your own Fury to a certain extent. You can't really expect a Tanker to take a backseat and not fight as much so that you're always at max Fury.
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To the extent that there's a downside to Fury, this is it. In any case, I don't imagine that a mature Brute build needs a whole lot of aggro to keep up very good levels of Fury. The extra ~20% or so base damage you might be able to get from having lots of aggro isn't even a blip on the radar of a full team, anyway.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I don't expect them to expressly take a backseat, but watching them waste their time to taunt AVs off of me that I am in no danger from is not some uncommon occurrence (when I'm on a PUG).|
Originally Posted by Silas
Tanker to take a backseat and not fight as much so that you're always at max Fury.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
The Tank shouldn't be spamming Taunt like a slack-jawed ninny on targets you've already got under control
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Originally Posted by Obitus
If you and the Tanker can't help competing for aggro -- usually because there's a shortage of targets -- then them's the breaks. If he's significantly more sturdy than you, the Tanker should try to do everything in his power to keep aggro away from you
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Originally Posted by Obitus
(and he ought to be able to do that, all else being equal).
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Otherwise, Brutes generate higher threat per target through damage combined with their threat mag and any secondary effects they bring.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
You're right to the extent that some Tankers seem intent that they should have 100% aggro, 100% of the time -- which is silly in many if not most team situations
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Originally Posted by Obitus
I'd say that the situation you describe -- wherein the difference in Fury generation a Brute gets from aggro is a significant help to the entire team -- is sufficiently rare to fall under the category of, "Not most of the time." YMMV.
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You can, and will generate higher fury and therefore higher damage with more incoming attacks.
Fury, is largely a competitive mechanic. it's just the nature of it.
If you're on a Brute, and you are not generating high damage through Fury and someone else is Tanking and has the vast bulk of aggro - you should be playing a Scrapper instead.
The Scrapper will be doing more damage, consistently and without regard to how much aggro they have. They will also benefit from team +damage bonuses more than the Brute will.
Brute's are the only melee AT who are rewarded, mechanically, for generating threat. The only thing that comes close are auras that grant benefits when the user is surrounded, which is not the same thing.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
The extra ~20% or so base damage you might be able to get from having lots of aggro isn't even a blip on the radar of a full team, anyway.
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On the times I've hung back a bit, I usually end up with something like 50% Fury as opposed to 80% Fury.
That's 60% base damage, which is almost like never turning Rage on, or never using BU - which no one would advocate doing whether it is a "blip on the radar" or not (and it's not always a blip on the radar btw, only with Fulcrum shift).
Besides, if 20% base damage isn't a blip on the radar, Silas should start endorsing Defenders over Corrs.
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I just went and beat on a Rikti dummy on my SS/FA, just doing my normal attack chain. I was hovering at around 70 Fury once I got going. So that's with literally nothing attacking me, just Fury gained from my attacking. Since on teams I'm usually at 80 Fury with entire spawns unloading at me, I don't consider it a huge difference.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
On the times I've hung back a bit, I usually end up with something like 50% Fury as opposed to 80% Fury.
That's 60% base damage, which is almost like never turning Rage on, or never using BU - which no one would advocate doing whether it is a "blip on the radar" or not (and it's not always a blip on the radar btw, only with Fulcrum shift). Besides, if 20% base damage isn't a blip on the radar, Silas should start endorsing Defenders over Corrs. |
TBH, it was a bigger deal before the Fury changes. Back then, you really did need a lot of aggro to maintain high Fury.
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I apologize for contributing to a derail of this excellent thread, and I'll try to keep my response short. The rest of Deus' post really isn't worth quibbling over; it appears we agree on just about every significant point, and engaging in a lengthy debate over this-or-that particular turn of phrase is rarely productive.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I think the difference would be more like 40-60% base damage (20-30% Fury).
On the times I've hung back a bit, I usually end up with something like 50% Fury as opposed to 80% Fury. That's 60% base damage, which is almost like never turning Rage on, or never using BU - which no one would advocate doing whether it is a "blip on the radar" or not (and it's not always a blip on the radar btw, only with Fulcrum shift). Besides, if 20% base damage isn't a blip on the radar, Silas should start endorsing Defenders over Corrs. |
As for the above-quoted portion, though:
First, like Silas, my experience with Fury under the new throttle differs significantly from yours if having aggro represents such a large swing in bonus damage on your Brute. Perhaps when you "hang back a bit," you're also attacking slower?
Second, and as above -- even if we stipulate that the presence of a Tanker can lower your consistent Fury level by 20-30%, is it not appropriate that there should be a downside to Fury? Is every single member of a full team entitled to their best-case solo performance by default, on top of whatever other benefits the team provides?
Third, and probably most important: I know your last statement in the above quote was tongue-in-cheek, but still it's worth noting that there's a significant difference between a 20% disparity in AT damage modifier, and a 20% difference in base damage buffs on a character who is already dealing at least 295% of his base damage (that's ED-compliant slotting and 50% Fury). In the latter case, an extra 20% in base damage would only represent a 315 / 295 = 6.7% net gain.
In a full team, having one guy do potentially ~7% less than his peak self-buffed damage is absolutely trivial to the team's overall performance, particularly given that you're probably going to have at least one damage-boosting buff/debuff from the team that more than makes up the difference. Teams are more than the sum of their parts, and we all occasionally have to make allowances. That's all I was saying.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Heh don't worry about the derail, it's all good stuff for me to think about and add to the guide. Speaking of which Obitus, do you mind if I shamessly steal from your last post for the official version of the guide? The Fury stuff is a very good point.
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Not at all.|
Originally Posted by Silas
Heh don't worry about the derail, it's all good stuff for me to think about and add to the guide. Speaking of which Obitus, do you mind if I shamessly steal from your last post for the official version of the guide? The Fury stuff is a very good point.
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I wish I were funnier, though. Might need some spit and polish.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Since you've gone and done this, I will now be forced to go and test with several Brute primaries (they have varying recharge capabilities too). |
Originally Posted by Silas
I just went and beat on a Rikti dummy on my SS/FA, just doing my normal attack chain. I was hovering at around 70 Fury once I got going. So that's with literally nothing attacking me, just Fury gained from my attacking. Since on teams I'm usually at 80 Fury with entire spawns unloading at me, I don't consider it a huge difference.
TBH, it was a bigger deal before the Fury changes. Back then, you really did need a lot of aggro to maintain high Fury. |
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Originally Posted by Obitus
I apologize for contributing to a derail of this excellent thread, and I'll try to keep my response short. The rest of Deus' post really isn't worth quibbling over; it appears we agree on just about every significant point, and engaging in a lengthy debate over this-or-that particular turn of phrase is rarely productive.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Second, and as above -- even if we stipulate that the presence of a Tanker can lower your consistent Fury level by 20-30%, is it not appropriate that there should be a downside to Fury? Is every single member of a full team entitled to their best-case solo performance by default, on top of whatever other benefits the team provides?
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They have no inbuilt mechanics that throttle their performance. Scrappers deal damage consistently, crits can be factored into DPS.
Tankers perform at their higher Def & Resistance numbers consistently.
Brute performance however always relies on the dictates of Fury - which is subject to team comp, encounter composition (i.e. hopping around in the BM encounter instead of being able to just stand still and DPS).
It is lessened now as you said, but the variable and "downside" exists.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Third, and probably most important: I know your last statement in the above quote was tongue-in-cheek, but still it's worth noting that there's a significant difference between a 20% disparity in AT damage modifier, and a 20% difference in base damage buffs on a character who is already dealing at least 295% of his base damage (that's ED-compliant slotting and 50% Fury). In the latter case, an extra 20% in base damage would only represent a 315 / 295 = 6.7% net gain.
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I think a fair number of players, and powersets will see that number drop even further - say 60%? (My WM brute is not built nearly as well as my SS/SD, he is forced to hang back on some occasions and WM is slow, like molasses uphill in July slow - he is usually around 60-70%)
At the top end, the only end I care about, how far of a performance drop is acceptable when some else is tanking before the Brute simply loses completely to a Scrapper who gets to deal 100% of their already superior damage all of the time.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
In a full team, having one guy do potentially ~7% less than his peak self-buffed damage is absolutely trivial to the team's overall performance, particularly given that you're probably going to have at least one damage-boosting buff/debuff from the team that more than makes up the difference. Teams are more than the sum of their parts, and we all occasionally have to make allowances. That's all I was saying.
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My personal theory is that the Brute's peak is already lower than the Scrapper's peak. A peak which pulls out further and further ahead the more +damage you add.
If the Brute loses the damage game so completely to the scrapper, and loses the tanking game to the Tanker on the team (who the brute is supposed to "cooperate" with, allow to them to take aggro for big important fights while the brute also accepts a damage performance loss in doing so) the Brute then serves a mediocre role on the team.
I don't sign up for mediocre.
It's an extreme opinion, but it's mine. So I will not be relinquishing aggro duty to any tanker on any Brute I have built for teaming (i.e. not dying while killing stuff in droves) - because if I do, I simply can't justify playing a Brute when I could be dealing better damage on a Scrapper while also handling "off tank duties".
I just want to add the caveat that I don't think Brutes are mediocre, I think they are amazing. But this requires them to be making the best use of both of their roles (which is actually one role), soaking aggro and dealing damage.
And regardless of my opinion, I appreciate the discussion with both of you.
My experience with freelancing teammates is that many of them haven't really felt or seen what true steamrolling is, and will promptly stick with the group when they finally live through it.
Yeah, you can kill a room by yourself, but can you do it in ten seconds? With a team, you can. You can take on Nictified Romulus...that's great, but can you bring him down fast? On a team with some good debuffs, you can.
I like where you're focusing as much on the "What you SHOULD be doing" as much as the "How you can do it." Most builds can. Not many should when there's better options.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.