In Which I Immediately Regret My Hubris

Heh, likewise, I'm sure some people could read into what I've said and conclude that I'm hating on Brutes -- telling them they should accept their lower, teamed damage and like it -- and that really isn't my intention. The rather muddled point I've been trying to make is simply that, in a largish team with both Tanker and Brute, the Brute's peak damage output is a distantly low priority for the Tanker.

And that's as it should be. Though I agree that many Tanker players spend too much time spamming Taunt -- lowering their own DPS to near-non-existence, which incidentally can represent a far larger proportional loss to the team's damage output than even a 30% loss to a Brute's Fury generation -- sometimes it's just better to be safe than sorry.

Obviously this whole discussion hinges on situation and particular team composition, but if my choice, as a Tanker, is between lowering the Brute's damage output by a generally unnoticeable (to me) amount, and potentially letting one of my squishies die, then the Brute loses every time.

I was going off an intentionally and unrealistically conservative comparison between 50% Fury and 60% Fury -- with no other damage buffs of any kind. As damage buffs rise, each gives a lesser proportional gain.

So let's use your numbers:

At 80% Fury (+160% damage), with ED-capped damage slotting (+95%) in your attacks, with Rage (+80%), with fully saturated Against All Odds (+65 damage, IIRC), you're sitting at ~500% of Brute base damage.

At 50% Fury (+100% damage) and all else being equal, you're sitting at ~440% of Brute base damage. So that 60% extra damage from Fury represents a whopping net gain of 500 / 440 = 13.6%. With one foe in range of AAO (+15.5% damage), the net difference jumps as high as 450.5 / 390.5 = 15.4%.

That's just not that big a deal in the grand scheme. Remember, against hard single targets (which are the main areas where DPS matters), the Tanker by himself is raising your damage by 20% with Bruising. The CoH gods giveth as they taketh away.

No one always gets their peak, solo performance by default in a team situation. Whether it's the Defender/Corrupter who has to spend more time casting team buffs/heals rather than attacking, or the Tanker who has to spend more time using Taunt, or even the Scrapper who has to hold back because he can't take the heat -- there are potentially any number of unseen trade offs that people make in team situations that they might not make in solo play.

Brutes' advantage is that they are potentially as good, simultaneously, as Tanker and Scrapper -- given enough support. Their disadvantage is that Fury is somewhat dependent on their environment. That seems fair to me. The specialized damage dealers that are most often frustrated by the circumstances are Blasters, and it's not even close -- and not just because Brutes have massively better survivability.

Likewise.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

I'm trying to figure out when this would be.

I really can't come up with a scenario where the Brute having aggro and high DPS somehow threatens the squishies to the point that the Tanker needs to step in and save the day by taking aggro from the Brute and thus lessening DPS.

Let's say they are standing next to each other sharing 16 enemies worth of aggro including an AV, worst case - Brute dies. At which point the tanker is already there and has been generating threat.

When does the Brute having aggro pose a threat to the team?

When are you, personally, making this choice in game right now?


Actually 15% is an amount I am totally comfortable in chasing like a Rabid dog.

I've spent billions on the build(s) for even lesser amounts than that. Why stop now!!


Well played.

While DPS is the main conversation here, -15% of a 300 point Footstomp is -45 DPA. I don't want to do 255 point Footstomps when I can do 300 point foostomps.

Especially when I can do those 300 point footstomps every 6s.

If this really was for the benefit of the team, I could accept it.

I just can not come up with a situation when the Tanker getting in my aggroz and reducing my damage actually can benefit the team.

Unless you mean by both of us running around and grabbing more and more mobs for wholesale slaughter - then yeah, I'm all for that. I'm not expecting any tank to wait for me to take spawn dives because that would mean we are not both rushing headlong into violence.



I would say their survivability performance is also subject to team comp.

Unfortunately there isn't a small army of guys like Silas on my server who play those mythical sets I've read so much about like thermal and sonic - getting +RES buffs is a pretty rare day for me. Usually it's +DEF out the wazoo, which I already built for (useful in new content though).



Agreed.

Team play in this game is fast-paced and often instinctive. All I'm saying is that if there's any question in my mind that I should throw out a Taunt on a squishie-heavy team, I'm gonna do it. And if that Taunt happens to hit something that your Brute may or may not have aggroed already, then I'm okay with that. You should be too.

I realize the way I described the situation may have seemed over-dramatic. The fact is, there often isn't a clear line in the sand marking your aggro and mine.

Granted, I pursue much smaller benefits than that on my builds. That's a soloist's mindset, though. To a full team, your doing 15% less self-buffed damage (that is, failing to include any bonuses you might have from the team) isn't a big deal. Edit: Also, whether you agree or not, I feel I should remind anyone else who might be reading that I regard that number as the worst-case scenario for your build. It describes a 30-point swing in Fury generation.

Further, the presence of a Tanker helps your damage output in another, qualitative way: he may free you from having to waste valuable attack time using Taunt.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

Well said.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build