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Where did I say in my post that Resistance>Defence? That has nothing to do with what I wrote.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I love Invulnerability, my first 50, but....... If you are talking using I/Os it has been pointed out that softcapping Def is so much more effective than softcapping resists that you are not even in the same ballpark for survivability. That is one of the reasons my new main Tank (now 48) is a Willpower. It has to do with the amount of damage you want to eat. take 20000 points of damage, in 20 1000 point shots. ouch. Invulnerability will (give a good def bump, say he has def that is effectively getting hit by 50%) so gets missed by half of this, so 10000, and eat 10% of that, so 1000 points. A softcapped def Willpower will get hit by 1000 and resist some of that, call it 30% for grins. 700 points actual damage. So, in this scenario the Invul takes 1,000 and the Will takes 700. the will is also regenerating like a wannabe wolverine. the Invul is gonna have to juggle to do heal management.
That is the short (and hopefully understood) version of why softcapped defense is better than softcapped resist by an order of magnitude. You are not even fighting the same fight, not playing by the same rules. |
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I must have misread you sorry. i thought you wrote that Invulnerabiltiy's resists were better than Willpower, and concluded that Invulnerabilty was better for team's than Willpower. My bad, sorry for the confusion.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Where did I say in my post that Resistance>Defence? That has nothing to do with what I wrote.
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Pretty sure Willpower gets some DDR. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Take Energy attacks for instance, many of them have a -def debuff attached. Seeing as you have almost no DDR and very little energy resistance things can get painful. This also brings the Praetorian Clockwork to mind which are increasingly common and are a WP's worst enemy(energy damage, -regen).
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Heightened Senses: RES(Defense) +21.625% for 0.75s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] Effect does not stack from same caster
RedTomax is hard to interpret; looks like at least one othe WP power has DDR but only on PVP maps?
Indomitable Will: RES(Defense) +30% for 0.75s If on a PvP map [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] Effect does not stack from same caster
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My initial post had "No DDR" so you might be referring to that, I edited it later on(probably too late). It has very little DDR, not really significant.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Pretty sure Willpower gets some DDR.
Heightened Senses: RES(Defense) +21.625% for 0.75s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] Effect does not stack from same caster RedTomax is hard to interpret; looks like at least one othe WP power has DDR but only on PVP maps? Indomitable Will: RES(Defense) +30% for 0.75s If on a PvP map [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] Effect does not stack from same caster |
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| I must have misread you sorry. i thought you wrote that Invulnerabiltiy's resists were better than Willpower, and concluded that Invulnerabilty was better for team's than Willpower. My bad, sorry for the confusion. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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It's not a case of either/or though. If my MA/Inv scrapper can softcap all damage types (but psi) then it should be that much easier for an invuln/ tank to do it on top of the set's resistance.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
That is the short (and hopefully understood) version of why softcapped defense is better than softcapped resist by an order of magnitude. You are not even fighting the same fight, not playing by the same rules.
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Kind of going on a tangent here, but how does a non-Granite Stone build fare compared to the Granite? The main reason I haven't tried Stone Armor yet is that being that slow in Granite and not even being able to jump would have driven me bonkers, so is it a viable strategy to just ignore Granite and roll with the other armors?
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Originally Posted by Starflier
Granite (not Stone)
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If the reason you are not playing stone/ is because off the lack of speed and jumping, the power rooted is going to cause you the same grief. That being said your tank can be sufficiently tough without granite armor. Granite is the best armor in the game though, but that is even multiplied by its supplemental power.... rooted.
The problem with Stone is he has to get to 32 first without dying. I'd go Invuln or Dark, combined with Dark Melee for Siphon Life.
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If you stick to the lowest possible difficulty settings, just about any tank or scrapper will suffice. Once you get into the 30s, it would likely be mathematically impossible to die in a mission that is set to the lowest possible difficulty.
I can vouch for Inv/dark Tank though. I play at a pretty high difficult and my only deaths are due to unplanned AFKs and a surprise Sapper or two. Think I'm playing at 3 heroes and +3 levels. I could go higher, but then my rate slows down.
Elec/Dark might be a intersting combo to try for this.
Elec:
Highest base Res across the board (bar Granite). Only Inv has higher base S/L then Elec.
Comes packing a Self heal, End discount, full status pro, end recovery.
Res vs Everything... but Toxic but toxic is basicly everyones bane. Thats makes you pretty darn flexable over all.
Combine with Darks -Tohit Debuffs, Self Heal, add in Tough, Weave, CJ, Manuver you can push yourself into 13-15% Def range vs All... then useing your to hit debuffs effectively get around 20% Def (most of the time) without IO slotting. This is all done pretty easyly. Even Basicly IOs can really push this biuld up into some very nice Res and Solid Def.
If you make it to 41, you pick up a Epic/PPP with lots of AoEs (like Mu).
End should never be a issue with this biuld (2 End Recovery powers, + your packing 2 heals).
Lets not forget... Sapped out Enemies are a lot less threatening.
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
I love Elec but it isn't as tough as Stone, Invuln, WP, and even Dark.
I will say it is very well rounded and it gives you great offensive boosts(end management, +recharge, damage aura).
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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My Stone/Fire Tank has softcapped Smash/Lethal in Rock Armor thanks to a few sets of Kinetic Combat. I can add Psi Defense of about 40% with Minerals. I only need to pop into Granite when I'm getting hit with a lot of other types of damage. By avoiding Granite, I don't suffer the damage and Recharge penalties and can do a lot more damage.|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Kind of going on a tangent here, but how does a non-Granite Stone build fare compared to the Granite? The main reason I haven't tried Stone Armor yet is that being that slow in Granite and not even being able to jump would have driven me bonkers, so is it a viable strategy to just ignore Granite and roll with the other armors?
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The big problem with Stone Armor before Granite is that your Mez protection is from Rooted, which makes you slower than . . . er . . . the elevator in my office building. One common solution is to use Teleport for Travel, as you can teleport into groups with Rooted on. You can look for IO bonuses that increase Run Speed, but you will need a LOT. Or you can learn to turn off Rooted as you run between groups and pop it on again when you get there. However, this last one has resulted in the most frequent cause of deaths for my Stone/Fire Tank -- I get caught with a mez before I can get Rooted on.
I have heard of quite a few groups playing "hardcore" where the character gets deleted upon death. Sounds like fun. To me, the key is getting high survival while leveling up . . . it is likely that the character will never reach 50 -- most of these characters never reach the 30's. One nice thing about an Invul Tank is that it gets a lot of great survival tools early. With invincibility, the more foes show up, the higher your defense goes. And you could slot up a bunch of Smashing Haymaker sets for fairly cheap in low levels to increase your Smash/Lethal defense.
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My personal record is 44 on a Broadsword/Shield Scrapper (died trying to rescue a younger Tanker from three Master Illusionists and their associated spawns & minions). My record for Tanker is 32, Fire/Dark Melee (died fighting the simulacrums at the end of the Positron I TF...we had an Ice Blaster in the team, so Built Up cold damage went right through my cruddy Cold resistances...and I was exemplared down, of course).
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I have heard of quite a few groups playing "hardcore" where the character gets deleted upon death. Sounds like fun. To me, the key is getting high survival while leveling up . . . it is likely that the character will never reach 50 -- most of these characters never reach the 30's.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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One more question - Do you delete right away without the chance to strip the character of valuables (in true Hispanic Devil fashion)?
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As Local points out, Rooted is even worse than Granite for mobility. I can run in Granite at a decent clip (around 23mph these days, used to be faster), but Rooted only gets me around 18mph ottomh. That's actually not too horrible, but the lack of jump is a pita. Even with TP, there are some maps that will frustrate you.|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Kind of going on a tangent here, but how does a non-Granite Stone build fare compared to the Granite? The main reason I haven't tried Stone Armor yet is that being that slow in Granite and not even being able to jump would have driven me bonkers, so is it a viable strategy to just ignore Granite and roll with the other armors?
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However, I can tell you my Stone tank w/S/L/E/N/Psi def cap, decent S/L/F/C resists, high regen (Rooted), HPs & a heal is well nigh untouchable. Hell, I barely even touch EE any more. I use Granite for tanking LR, and that's really it these days. Never touch it for LG, ITF, Kahn, MSRs, etc.
Full disclosure: I'm Stone/Ice (toughest build in the game, bar none), so Ice Patch helps obviously, but even when I don't bother with it, I'm fine. Very likely, I'd use EE more w/o IP, but w/HPs capped w/EE and the regen from Rooted, I wouldn't need IP. Also, if I'm "tank stealthing" or gathering mobs or stuff, sometimes I'll do it in Granite, but only cuz it's faster than Rooted.
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There's no agreement on that that I'm aware of. The original rules for the Iron Eagles I included a provision about selling everything that one put on the market for 1 inf and not "playing" the market, but you could still hold your item in inventory until a price war occurred and drop it when you knew the 1 would be waaaay overbid. The intent was to focus on hardcore play and not marketeering.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
One more question - Do you delete right away without the chance to strip the character of valuables (in true Hispanic Devil fashion)?
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The current SG I'm in is Iron Eagles II, a reboot. As far as I know there is no longer any prohibition against charging more than 1 inf on the market, and no reason one couldn't IO except for the impermanence of the character.
I have gone the route of outright delete in most cases; but twice I plundered the character and mailed the loot to my non-hardcore characters on other servers. And I don't think it's out of bounds to pass at least some loot forward to a new character -- that old hardcore action game we're talking about allowed you to "set loot" to a teammate, who could loot many-but-not-all types of items from your body and carry them to your new character.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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Are we talking out of the box, Basic IO, or IO set biuld?|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
I love Elec but it isn't as tough as Stone, Invuln, WP, and even Dark.
I will say it is very well rounded and it gives you great offensive boosts(end management, +recharge, damage aura). |
Not much question on Granite Stone tanker.... no ones as tough as that (granite form). Though getting thier will be rougher then Inv.
Inv vs Elec kinda hard.... Inv blows Elec out of the water on DEF. But Elec blows Inv out of the water vs Res. Only thing Inv beats Elec in for Res is S/L. And even then... not by much. (10% or less). Were as Elec has a good 35% difference in other resists over Inv, and even a huge 60% difference when it comes to Psi Res. Inv also is vulnerable to Drain, and can have End Issues. Heal is also slower on Inv, thought it does have the Hp boost.
Out of the Box/IO (non sets). I will tip my hat to Inv due to the DEF. But its not so cut and dry.
Elec vs Dark . Out of the Box ...Elec Beats dark in my view. Better Res, Better End endurance (vs End Hog Dark)..biuld in recharge, biuld in end discount. Capped Res to one of the more Common Dmg types in the game. Immunity to Drain (even Dark isn't immune.. but its good). Dark also has a Knockback hole in its status protection. Dark does pack the best heal in the game, and biuld in Def. However the over all starting package Elec is much more forgiving to play before IO sets then Dark. (After IO sets.. it gets really muddy).
Elec vs WP... Never played WP so can't really comment on it. I will say on Paper WP looks a bit like Shield in its capacity. Non-IO set biuld isn't so impressive compared to multi-billion biulds. Shield I know really really likes its IO sets.
So playing a 1 death your out toon, Elec/Dark is a Very strong contender as a choice to me.
These would be my 3 picks:
Inv/Dark
Elec/Dark
Stone/???
*Stones secondary is a tough one... Ice, Stone, Dark.. each add thier own levels of uberness to Stones increable toughness. Inv and Elec could take those secondarys as well but really shine in toughness with Darks mitigation and extra heal.
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
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Exemplared down shouldn't count in my view. reason... Your Enchancments do nothing. Exemplared down, unless your packing IO purples, your weaker then characters of the correct level doing the TF. (you do get the +5 thing... but so wouldn't the level 20 character who still at least has DOs in thier powers vs your Nothing in your powers).|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
My personal record is 44 on a Broadsword/Shield Scrapper (died trying to rescue a younger Tanker from three Master Illusionists and their associated spawns & minions). My record for Tanker is 32, Fire/Dark Melee (died fighting the simulacrums at the end of the Positron I TF...we had an Ice Blaster in the team, so Built Up cold damage went right through my cruddy Cold resistances...and I was exemplared down, of course).
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Its a unfair challenge for the no dieing while leveling. Not to mention, would Superman really die just because he was pulling his punchs vs thugs with guns?? His Invulnerability is still thier after all even if he wasn't hitting them as hard as he could (red mist anyone? hehe). Death should only count when your fighting at your normal level or higher. Or if you want say within 5 levels of your level (so exemplar from 40 to 35 everything is still working fully so death should count at that point).
But thats up to what ever rules your playing with
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
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Ah, okay, the speed issue doesn't sound that bad. I fight in Hover with my Scrapper, so she's only going about 24mph in missions anyway. The inability to jump would be annoying as hell though, I bet.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
As Local points out, Rooted is even worse than Granite for mobility. I can run in Granite at a decent clip (around 23mph these days, used to be faster), but Rooted only gets me around 18mph ottomh. That's actually not too horrible, but the lack of jump is a pita. Even with TP, there are some maps that will frustrate you.
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It doesn't matter that much, maybe with Dark Armor.|
Originally Posted by Breog
Are we talking out of the box, Basic IO, or IO set biuld?
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| Inv vs Elec kinda hard.... Inv blows Elec out of the water on DEF. But Elec blows Inv out of the water vs Res. Only thing Inv beats Elec in for Res is S/L. And even then... not by much. (10% or less). Were as Elec has a good 35% difference in other resists over Inv, and even a huge 60% difference when it comes to Psi Res. Inv also is vulnerable to Drain, and can have End Issues. Heal is also slower on Inv, thought it does have the Hp boost. |
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| Elec vs Dark . Out of the Box ...Elec Beats dark in my view. Better Res, Better End endurance (vs End Hog Dark)..biuld in recharge, biuld in end discount. Capped Res to one of the more Common Dmg types in the game. Immunity to Drain (even Dark isn't immune.. but its good). Dark also has a Knockback hole in its status protection. Dark does pack the best heal in the game, and biuld in Def. However the over all starting package Elec is much more forgiving to play before IO sets then Dark. (After IO sets.. it gets really muddy). |
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| Elec vs WP... Never played WP so can't really comment on it. I will say on Paper WP looks a bit like Shield in its capacity. Non-IO set biuld isn't so impressive compared to multi-billion biulds. Shield I know really really likes its IO sets. |
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Hps is definitely a perk of Inv. But I could just as easyly point out how Elec laughs at Recluse energy attacks. Thier are many factors involved in overall toughness of a set. Im just saying out of the Box (SOs) Elec isn't some fragile set as many think it is and definitely for what hes doing needs to be looked at with the others. Especialy when combined with Darkness.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
It doesn't matter that much, maybe with Dark Armor.
Inv has a lot more HP, this is a really underrated feature. The biggest hitters in the game? S/L. See Bobcat, Goliaths, Recluse, Cimerorans. HP makes a big difference when facing those big hitters, I have experience both as an Elec Tanker and as an Empath on this. |
IO Sets and extremes are a whole other ball game to get into. Elec tanker looks like a granite tanker on LGTF, were as I have watched Inv tankers crumble under the energy/Psi damage.
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| I'm not good at promoting Dark Armor, but Dechs' sold it to me. Basically Dark Regeneration is just that damn good. |
Elec however does best Dark in Res, along with its other perks *shrug*
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| WP, much like Invuln also has the high HP feature, with ridiculous amounts of regen. If you take a look at the regen numbers on top WP builds you'll see why it's more survivable than Elec in general. |
Say vs S/L.... My tanker has 90% res + 45 hp/sec and Soft Capped defense. Can a top end WP equal that? (I honestly dont know, thats why im asking)
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
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The Dark Armor tank in my video is only a 300 million inf budget. Elec has about 10% more resist at the ED cap for S/L. Dark has a 8% defense advantage. Considering that 2% res = 1% def, I think Dark wins that trade.|
Originally Posted by Breog
Dark Armor is one of those sets that reallly really shine with IO sloting. Out of the box, still going with Elec over Dark. Fully IO sloted (like 10 Billion style) thats a really tough call to me.
Elec however does best Dark in Res, along with its other perks *shrug* |
I do like how Elec has endurance sapping abilities. I still think Dark has the better control powers. Additionally, I value a self rez (especially one that comes with a mag 30 autohit stun) over a "true godmode" that has a horrendous crash.
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Originally Posted by Breog
Say vs S/L.... My tanker has 90% res + 45 hp/sec and Soft Capped defense. Can a top end WP equal that? (I honestly dont know, thats why im asking)
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
A WP tanker can hit about 70% S/L resist with HPT, Mind Over Body, and Tough slotted up. Add in a Shield Wall unique, very rare cardiac alpha slot, and some overslotting, and that WP tanker could approach 80%. Heightened senses only gives about 5% S/L defense, but if an elec tanker can cap S/L defense then so can a WP tanker. It's the regen where the WP tanker stands out; it's not a huge trick to hit 90-100 hp's/sec or more with just one mob in range.|
Originally Posted by Breog
Say vs S/L.... My tanker has 90% res + 45 hp/sec and Soft Capped defense. Can a top end WP equal that? (I honestly dont know, thats why im asking)
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I have a WP tanker that has been sitting at 47 for a while. S/L damage is not a big deal for them once they're IO'ed out. It's the non-S/L, non-psy damage that has me concerned, since WP has almost no resists there. Actually that's the main reason I'm working on an elec/KM tank right now.
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My planned WP build hits about 75% resistance with soft-capped defenses and 92 hp/sec regen (up to 148 hp/sec with fully-saturated RttC):|
Originally Posted by Breog
Say vs S/L.... My tanker has 90% res + 45 hp/sec and Soft Capped defense. Can a top end WP equal that? (I honestly dont know, thats why im asking)
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=253076
That is the short (and hopefully understood) version of why softcapped defense is better than softcapped resist by an order of magnitude. You are not even fighting the same fight, not playing by the same rules.