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Pics, and video or it didnt happen.
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
I've outlived Granite Tanks on my DM/Inv Scrapper.
Yes. Really. |
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Quote:
I get that point too but still depending on how well the set performs until you get IOs makes it that much more or less enjoyable and you start to think will this be worth it in the end? For alot of powersets it just isnt worth it.
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
For me, once I hit 50 there was another journey - the road to IOing out my character. This happens on any of my characters that hit 50. I enjoy the hell out of the journey from 1 through 50, but it doesn't last forever. Level 50 does.
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An IO'd out Invuln is going to suck? Maybe if you're terrible at making builds, otherwise it will be pretty damn durable.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
I refuse to put IO's into this character when I know its still going to suck.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Start IOing sooner?|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
There are alot of sets that suck at 20 and would play great at 50. But I am not going to play them because to me the whole point of a character is the journey and not the destination. Thats why playing with SO's is so important because your stuck with using them until you can be fully IOed out anyways. If I hate going from levels 1-49 but love 50 its not worth it to me thats all I am saying.
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I use level 33 IOs, while I use them for exemping purposes, that lets you use them as you level up and not just at lvl 50.
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Another reason I am so hard on invul is because I knew what the set was capable of. I tasted perma-unstoppable before, played the set before they gutted invincibilty. All this was back in the days when we were real heroes. 
I get sad everytime I think about it. Got to excuse me I think I need a tissue now.
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Quote:
I never do that ever. Its just not worth giving up huge percentages of enhancement besides you dont have enough slots at 30 to do this and be any where near as effective.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Start IOing sooner?
I use level 33 IOs, while I use them for exemping purposes, that lets you use them as you level up and not just at lvl 50. |
Small edit: The lowest I go on lvl of the enhancement is lvl 49 unless its one of those procs that need to be at a lower level in the event that I do exemplar. The main reason I go for higher enhancements is that if I do exemplar then your enhancements get gutted it will not be as bad as if you used lower enhancements.
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Lets be clear here, I'm only on my second can of Rolling Rock.
Oh, right. Scrappers. Lets be clear here, I'm not saying that SR and WP aren't top contenders, but to deny that Invulnerability isn't a top contender for survivability is ignorant. Especially a DM/Inv.
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I have Unstoppable in my build but it is there for a 3% Defense Gladiator. I never even use it and still am the one that is last to die, if at all.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Another reason I am so hard on invul is because I knew what the set was capable of. I tasted perma-unstoppable before, played the set before they gutted invincibilty. All this was back in the days when we were real heroes.
I get sad everytime I think about it. Got to excuse me I think I need a tissue now. |
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Quote:
Oh? Let's see what we can do at 30 with four slots.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
I never do that ever. Its just not worth giving up huge percentages of enhancement besides you dont have enough slots at 30 to do this and be any where near as effective.
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SOs, level 30: Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam - 33% Acc, 94.93% Dam
Generic IOs, level 30: Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam - 34.8% Acc, 95.66% Dam
OH SNAP
... and they never need to be replaced!
Just for fun, let's look at what we can do with set IOs, again with four slots.
SOs, level 33: Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam - 38.3% Acc, ~97% Dam
Set IOs, level 33: Focused Smite 1, 2, 3, and 5 - 40.4% Acc, 84% Dam, 22.4% End, 40.4% Rec
OH SNAP AGAIN
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Small edit: The lowest I go on lvl of the enhancement is lvl 49 unless its one of those procs that need to be at a lower level in the event that I do exemplar. The main reason I go for higher enhancements is that if I do exemplar then your enhancements get gutted it will not be as bad as if you used lower enhancements.
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Originally Posted by http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Exemplar_Effects_on_Enhancements
... you can use up to level 25 Dual-Aspect IOs, level 43 Tri-Aspect IOs, and level 50 Quad-Aspect IOs and suffer no bonus reduction unless you Exemplar to level 20 or lower. (Those breakpoints are only accurate for Schedule A benefits. Schedule B's are higher, C's and D's are lower.)
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's doesn't make things plural.
I'd say if Invuln wasn't the most survivable then it would deserve a buff, considering the extra recovery you get from WP and Regen, giving you a much better boost in offense than the +ToHit in Invinc does.
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Well hell, I'm not against Invulnerability getting a buff.
...
I just don't think it's needed either. 
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i thought scrapper /wp doesn`t have any healing power. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
WP and Regen provide you with better self healing,
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Direct Heals, no, but plenty of +Regen between Fast Healing and Rise to the Challenge. Especially RttC when you have a bunch of foes around you.
's doesn't make things plural.
Time to talk invul buffs !
- raise the scrapper resistance cap to 80 or 85%.
This makes Unstoppable more interesting, as well as letting us increase our S/L resistance to what it should be (above 75% S/L can be reached with the cardiac alpha now). Also benefits fire and elec armor scrappers, who get the short end of the stick compared to their brute counterparts.
- change Unstoppable to be closer than Force of Nature.
It doesn't seem right that an APP clone of the power is easier to use (and arguably more useful because of that) than the original power. Give us the resistances for only 2 minutes, with just an end crash and the same 1000s recharge.
- Temp Invul should be a damage aura on top of the resistance power it currently is.
That's right, if bullets bounce of my chest it's bound to hurt *somebody* as there's always the aggro cap around me.
- add a fear effect to Unyielding.
If I can't have fear protection, it's only fair. Plus I feel so badass when I play my invul I know I'd just turn away and run if I was one of the badguys. There also should be an instadeath effect (heart attack) if they start running out of melee 'cause I don't feel like chasing.
- Dull Pain on a 20s base recharge.
Just do it.
- Underground Pony Death Laser
Because orbital strikes are overrated. This would be a 300 feet PBAoE dealing 100.000 unresistable damage to anyone who isn't invul - including your teammates.
I think these changes are only fair and would go a long way towards making Invul closer to the other secondaries.
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This is completely and utterly wrong. Frankenslotting from level 30ish onwards will surpass SOs and still be dirt cheap if done right.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
There are alot of sets that suck at 20 and would play great at 50. But I am not going to play them because to me the whole point of a character is the journey and not the destination. Thats why playing with SO's is so important because your stuck with using them until you can be fully IOed out anyways.
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It isn't rocket science. An easy to follow example : Targetted AOEs : 1 Acc, 3 Damage can be replaced with Airburst Acc/Dam, Dam/Recharge and Detonation Acc/Dam, Dam/Recharge.
Oh look, I've now got an extra 40-45% recharge on the power compared to the SO slotting. And I don't need to worry about reslotting this power until I hit 50. I do this with every Targetted AOE every character I am levelling has (and laugh at posts where people call Air Burst and Detonation "worthless").
What's also neat is that you don't need to Frankenslot the entire build in one go, you can just replace SOs (generally in pairs) as you go or as nice things drop for you.
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Knowing both Invuln and Stone tankers at top level performance there's only two explanations for that... either the tanker was doing his job and holding all the aggro so you weren't getting hit or he was poorly slotted. Given equal incoming attacks an Invuln tanker, even built extremely well, isn't going to surpass the durability of a well built Granite tank.|
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
I've outlived Granite Tanks on my DM/Inv Scrapper.
Yes. Really. |
When I'm tanking if I'm not taking most of the aggro then I'm doing something wrong. And if I have most of the aggro then it stands to reason that given foes of sufficient power to faceplant me that the rest of the team would live longer.
None of this however in any way means that a well built Inv scrapper isn't highly effective and survivable; just that due to the hard caps of 75% resistance alone they can't equal a Granite tanker's durability. Of course nothing else in the game short of Phantom Army can reach or exceed that level either so it's hardly a strike against the scrapper... and scrappers have considerably better damage output.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Maybe not a generic /Invlun Scrapper, but bass is refering to their DM/Invuln. Ya know, the Primary that gives you a 250+ point heal every 4th attack. Siphon Life goes a long way to making *ANY* set more survivable that it normally would be. If bass was talking about a Katana/Invuln, I might scratch my head like you did but DM/Invuln? I can see it.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Knowing both Invuln and Stone tankers at top level performance there's only two explanations for that... either the tanker was doing his job and holding all the aggro so you weren't getting hit or he was poorly slotted. Given equal incoming attacks an Invuln tanker, even built extremely well, isn't going to surpass the durability of a well built Granite tank.
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Beowulf -
Too many Alts, not enough 50's. Story of my life...
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Nihilii, you silly person. Yes I know that you're joking here but I'm still going to go with a semi-serious tone on my reply to you, so nyaa~! |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Time to talk invul buffs !
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
- raise the scrapper resistance cap to 80 or 85%.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
This makes Unstoppable more interesting, as well as letting us increase our S/L resistance to what it should be (above 75% S/L can be reached with the cardiac alpha now). Also benefits fire and elec armor scrappers, who get the short end of the stick compared to their brute counterparts.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
- change Unstoppable to be closer than Force of Nature.
It doesn't seem right that an APP clone of the power is easier to use (and arguably more useful because of that) than the original power. Give us the resistances for only 2 minutes, with just an end crash and the same 1000s recharge. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
- Temp Invul should be a damage aura on top of the resistance power it currently is.
That's right, if bullets bounce of my chest it's bound to hurt *somebody* as there's always the aggro cap around me. |
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This also doesn't factor in what type of enhancements either builds had. Oh, and I have been on teams where my defenders stayed alive while a Stone tank went down. You heard it here first people, my defenders outlived a Stone tank. |
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Knowing both Invuln and Stone tankers at top level performance there's only two explanations for that... either the tanker was doing his job and holding all the aggro so you weren't getting hit or he was poorly slotted. Given equal incoming attacks an Invuln tanker, even built extremely well, isn't going to surpass the durability of a well built Granite tank.
When I'm tanking if I'm not taking most of the aggro then I'm doing something wrong. And if I have most of the aggro then it stands to reason that given foes of sufficient power to faceplant me that the rest of the team would live longer. None of this however in any way means that a well built Inv scrapper isn't highly effective and survivable; just that due to the hard caps of 75% resistance alone they can't equal a Granite tanker's durability. Of course nothing else in the game short of Phantom Army can reach or exceed that level either so it's hardly a strike against the scrapper... and scrappers have considerably better damage output. |
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2 things.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
If you can show me pics and videos of invul scrappers surviving end game stuff thats non-smashing lethal attacks set for 8 people while using just SO's without unstoppable going then and only then I will admit I am wrong.
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1. Show me pics and vids of ANY scrapper set to x8 solo taking damage to anything but its main type, on only SOs, and I'll consider this a valid arguement to /inv being a subpar set.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
My point in all of this is I cant say a set is playable if that playability comes from IOs.
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I can say that my Claws/WP scrapper dies a whole lot more than my DM/Inv.
I have yet to find a build for WP that I like I really would like to like it, but I just always seem to stop playing them (my claws/WP scrap has been sitting at 43 for a very long time now)
*edit* claws/wp dies more than my spines/regen, BS/DA, Kat/Inv, Fire/SR scrappers as well >.>
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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And if you do something like positron what then? As said thats my style and how I do things, I do not like to use lower level IO sets I did not say generic IOs because I prefer getting as close to the max number as possible. I dont care much about keeping set bonuses when exemplared but I do care about enhancement percentages if I am going well below 20.
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Originally Posted by Bonnes
Oh? Let's see what we can do at 30 with four slots.
SOs, level 30: Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam - 33% Acc, 94.93% Dam Generic IOs, level 30: Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam - 34.8% Acc, 95.66% Dam OH SNAP ... and they never need to be replaced! Just for fun, let's look at what we can do with set IOs, again with four slots. SOs, level 33: Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam - 38.3% Acc, ~97% Dam Set IOs, level 33: Focused Smite 1, 2, 3, and 5 - 40.4% Acc, 84% Dam, 22.4% End, 40.4% Rec OH SNAP AGAIN Even though you are from the moon and such things as "numbers" and "facts" hold no sway over you, EvilRyu, here's a quote from the Wiki: Oh, and your policy of using no less than level 49 IOs means that you'll lose all your set bonuses when you exemplar for any TF (except Dr. Q, you masochist). |
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Quote:
My point on what you quoted is that you can not soft cap really early like say level 15. You would have to wait till the 30's to do it and even still I do not want to give up the slots for other powers that need them. Thats why I do it at the end. I know frankenslotting can get you high overall bonuses but I am talking about set bonuses since those are what's going to make the unplayable set playable.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
This is completely and utterly wrong. Frankenslotting from level 30ish onwards will surpass SOs and still be dirt cheap if done right.
It isn't rocket science. An easy to follow example : Targetted AOEs : 1 Acc, 3 Damage can be replaced with Airburst Acc/Dam, Dam/Recharge and Detonation Acc/Dam, Dam/Recharge. Oh look, I've now got an extra 40-45% recharge on the power compared to the SO slotting. And I don't need to worry about reslotting this power until I hit 50. I do this with every Targetted AOE every character I am levelling has (and laugh at posts where people call Air Burst and Detonation "worthless"). What's also neat is that you don't need to Frankenslot the entire build in one go, you can just replace SOs (generally in pairs) as you go or as nice things drop for you. |
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Quote:
SR can Softcap without SO|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
2 things.
1. Show me pics and vids of ANY scrapper set to x8 solo taking damage to anything but its main type, on only SOs, and I'll consider this a valid arguement to /inv being a subpar set. 2. Playability is not defined as a character with a secondary of damage mitigation being able to survive off of a non specialized damage type mob set for an 8 person team coming at them. |
Also for melee characters that determines whether I can say the set is playbable or not. If the ride isnt smooth from 1-50, the set does not get played. I made the mistake of playing a set that was horrible to level. At the time it was a Fire/Psi dom before the dom changes. Getting to 38 was the hardest thing I ever did in this game because of the horrible damage at that time. I could probably do it again now since they changed the set because the ride is smooth to lvl 50 in that case.
Survivablity is not the only thing I look for in if its playable or not. I can not play stone armor due to the looks and speed penalties despite being easily made to be unkillable. Its just better to be unkillable but on another powerset.
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