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Originally Posted by Another_Fan  The obsessive need of the people taking the no hyper inflation side to say "We don't have hyper inflation, and there are no problems from it" Quote: Originally Posted by Another_Fan I don't know about how near or far we may be from [market collapse]. I doubt anyone with a player level access to the market could actually say. |
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Originally Posted by Rylas
If player level access to the market doesn't qualify anyone to claim we're near market collapse, then I don't think player level access gives anyone enough information to claim there is hyperinflation.
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Measuring market inflation just involves measuring prices.
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Yes, we get it, you're using a different definition of hyperinflation. You've spent several pages aggressively and obnoxiously arguing semantics. Congrats.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Person A: Is it raining ?
Person B: The roof has no leaks and we have plenty of pots Person C: Looking out the window, Its raining Person B: THE ROOF HAS NO LEAKS AND WE HAVE PLENTY OF POTS WHY ARE YOU TROLLING !!!! |
To take a page from your book, I'm sorry that you think the highest luxury items in the game are analogous to household appliances.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Just getting back to this topic now as I received a private message from Another Fan's mommy, and I can see that I was wrong to belittle Another Fan. I want to formally apologize for my bad behavior towards Another Fan. We should all consider ourselves lucky to have such a special person as Another Fan in this forum, and this is something that I'll always cherish, from now on, silently.
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No, it involves measuring prices per transaction. Not per limited selection of items, as you've been parading around in either the argument of purples, PVP's and other high-demand/low-supply items (or sets within a fraction of level range they are available in). |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Measuring market inflation just involves measuring prices.
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While it's easier to see if there's inflation (in general), the level of inflation is not determinable at player level access. Whether it be the definition of hyperinflation you're going by, or anyone else is going by.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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To be honest, I think making in-game market item comparisons to any real world products is a bit off. We should be comparing it to real world market stocks. Stocks go up and down, some extreme, some hardly at all. The dollar chasing those stocks experiences inflation, but basing inflation off the stocks isn't accurate, because supply and demand play too major a role. Also, stocks aren't accurate since they aren't real world necessities, but a means of investment. They don't get placed in the "basket."
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
What if they took out the yachts, racehorses and six-figure jewelry instead?
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
No, it involves measuring prices per transaction. Not per limited selection of items, as you've been parading around in either the argument of purples, PVP's and other high-demand/low-supply items (or sets within a fraction of level range they are available in).
While it's easier to see if there's inflation (in general), the level of inflation is not determinable at player level access. Whether it be the definition of hyperinflation you're going by, or anyone else is going by. |
Once again you can get information about the general price of items in the game. You can't get information that isn't even exposed to players.
Edit: Left out get in "you can get information"
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Yes, we get it, you're using a different definition of hyperinflation. You've spent several pages aggressively and obnoxiously arguing semantics. Congrats.
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I get it you don't like the word. Its fearful to you. You like arguing we can't have the effects of hyperinflation. That's a different thread I encourage you to start it.
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| To take a page from your book, I'm sorry that you think the highest luxury items in the game are analogous to household appliances. |
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If to use your numbers we have 5 billion generated per player are purples yachts, or just nice three bedroom houses in a well kept suburb ?
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
What if they took out the yachts, racehorses and six-figure jewelry instead?
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LOL, Ouija board ?
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Just getting back to this topic now as I received a private message from Another Fan's mommy, and I can see that I was wrong to belittle Another Fan. I want to formally apologize for my bad behavior towards Another Fan. We should all consider ourselves lucky to have such a special person as Another Fan in this forum, and this is something that I'll always cherish, from now on, silently.
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You've linked that wikipedia page a lot. You are aware wikipedia isn't exactly the most reliable source, right? |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
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Also, if you can't concede that the hyperinflation linked to doesn't take into account the economic system of the game, then it's not possible to hold a rational discussion. Unless you consider real world economic systems to be similar to the in-game one (i.e. people print the money, everyone has equal capacity to earn/sell/buy/create). Do you?
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Once again you can information about the general price of items in the game. You can't get information that isn't even exposed to players.
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So you agree, one can easily follow prices of items, but one can't determine the level of inflation adequately since one can't determine the average of inf per transaction?
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation
we seem to have prices going down in the last week or two but overall we DEFINITELY have hyperinflation. Seriously I have on a toon all my old emails dateing back 3 years. We are at the point where 3 years ago 10 mill influ is now about = to 350mill to 450 mill influ. that is hyperinflation. this is a statement and i am curious if people agree. Please let me know if you do if you do not please let me know why you disagree thank you for your support |
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Originally Posted by Rylas
You've linked that wikipedia page a lot. You are aware wikipedia isn't exactly the most reliable source, right?
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Person B: What is rain ? Whatever rain is its not a problem, stop trolling about the rain.
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| Also, if you can't concede that the hyperinflation linked to doesn't take into account the economic system of the game, then it's not possible to hold a rational discussion. Unless you consider real world economic systems to be similar to the in-game one (i.e. people print the money, everyone has equal capacity to earn/sell/buy/create). Do you? |
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I'm really not trying to be difficult when I say, "I can't really tell if this post is agreeing with what I said or somehow trying to argue against it." So you agree, one can easily follow prices of items, but one can't determine the level of inflation adequately since one can't determine the average of inf per transaction? |
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| Once again you can get information about the general price of items in the game. You can't get information that isn't even exposed to players. |
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Ya, I have found myself wishing I had stuffed all my alts with various crafted sets and recipes years ago when I had the inf to buy them. Now I make tons more inf and can buy much less. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I have complete confidence in the inf. I have complete confidence that tomorrow it will be worth less than it was today, just as today it is worth less than it was yesterday.
When I started buying purples they were in the 30-70 million inf range, lotg were going for 50-70 million, low level steadfasts in the few million range, enzymes, ribos, membranes were all selling for a 1/3 to 1/5 current prices as well. My only regret is that I didn't have more storage to hold what I felt were desirable items. |
I think the better way, perhaps, to look at this whole thread is hours of work to item X. Inf is worth less now simply because its easier to get.
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Thanks for providing a more apt word for describing your posts.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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I used the link from wiki for lack of a better link. Also I was trying to start a conversation about what i think is hyperinflation of many many ios and sets.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
You've linked that wikipedia page a lot. You are aware wikipedia isn't exactly the most reliable source, right?
Also, if you can't concede that the hyperinflation linked to doesn't take into account the economic system of the game, then it's not possible to hold a rational discussion. Unless you consider real world economic systems to be similar to the in-game one (i.e. people print the money, everyone has equal capacity to earn/sell/buy/create). Do you? I'm really not trying to be difficult when I say, "I can't really tell if this post is agreeing with what I said or somehow trying to argue against it." So you agree, one can easily follow prices of items, but one can't determine the level of inflation adequately since one can't determine the average of inf per transaction? |
The arguement that the term does not apply to the game is of course true. As soon as someone with a phd in economics from harvard, or M.I.T., Carnage mellon, or the wharton school at u of P, etc... Publishes a thesis or a paper on the econmics of the CoX franchise and its market I will not be able to link to something more specific so lacking such research and analysis I am not able to give more firm details.
I put in a email to Paul Krugman the nobel prize winnner in economics in 2008 he has yet to respond but as soon as i hear from him i promise that i will post the response.
lets not forget we are talking about a game. Just a game and a superhero game at that so lets be rational that we are talking about a superhero mmo. Mkay
We should look at whether the price of basic survival goods have gone up before we ascribe inflationary forces to the game.
Basic necessities:
Inspirations
Single-Origin Enhancements
Training Enhancements
Dual-Origin Enhancements
Tailor (for some, but not a necessity per se).
Pretty sure Inspirations sell for 150 (?) each still, as they have for a while.
Single-Origins cost a few hundred thousand influence (more or less) at varying levels. There aren't loaves of bread selling for millions of a game's currency here, the loaf of bread still costs 150 inf, you're just making more inf than is necessary for basic survival.
These are the game's staples and they have not been affected, adversely or otherwise, by the game's influx of influence. Normally, Inspiration prices should be around 1,000 - 5,000 each and SOs going for 500,000 to 1,000,00, no?
IOs, Purples, etc. are all luxury goods. How much should you be expected to pay for them? Prices seem pretty stable on the high-end stuff. 200,000,000 for a Luck of the Gambler +Recharge, 300,000,000 for a Ragnarok (Damage) and so on.
You can go to Payless Shoesource and get a pair of functional shoes for $20-$40 or you can go to Aldo or another store and drop hundreds on a pair of better shoes. Sure, the comparison might not be perfect but...influence switches hands so quickly in this game that it's hard NOT to spend as you go. The issue is...with a declining player population (based on sub numbers), how do you keep wanted goods from being produced by the population so that people can get what they perceive as a need?
Should the Developers do something about this?
Well...do you want the Developers to set the baseline for character performance at five Lotg 7.5, a Miracle proc, defense-capped melee and so on? If so, if they feel that's the new standard, then perhaps they should re-visit Merit costs for higher end items. Of course, with the ease of accumulation of influence there really isn't an easy way out of this unless the Developers FORCE influence out of the system. For example, a friend of mine got a hefty bonus at his workplace but it got taxed to death (think he said 75% of it left, in Quebec, because it was so high). Should the Developers scale down influence production? Or should there be worthwhile influence sinks added to the game? How much would you pay for a Shivan shard, a Warburg nuke, a missing PvP IO, a five-use mission teleporter, etc.
In short, either they allow us to produce LESS inf or they give us good influence outlets or they re-examine the availability of goods. In the end, they've shown themselves leery of affecting the Market, most solutions being kludgy in the extreme. Of course, I'm probably way out of left field here with the analysis, but it sure seems there are a lot of people without set bonuses doing all these Task Forces...which could indicate frankenslotting or HO/basic IO slotting, of course...but how much should be worry about a collapse? Does a certain segment really see the luxury goods bottoming out at 15,000,000 or so and yellows selling for 500 influence (yes, some do already) and is this an issue that needs resolving by the development team?
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Hyperinflation.html|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation
I get it you don't like the word. Its fearful to you. You like arguing we can't have the effects of hyperinflation. That's a different thread I encourage you to start it. |
"Hyperinflation is very high inflation. Although the threshold is arbitrary, economists generally reserve the term “hyperinflation” to describe episodes when the monthly inflation rate is greater than 50 percent. At a monthly rate of 50 percent, an item that cost $1 on January 1 would cost $130 on January 1 of the following year."http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hyperinflation.asp
"Extremely rapid or out of control inflation. There is no precise numerical definition to hyperinflation. Hyperinflation is a situation where the price increases are so out of control that the concept of inflation is meaningless."http://faculty.lebow.drexel.edu/mcca...obs/infl7.html
"The term "hyperinflation" refers to a very rapid, very large increase in the price level. Measurement problems will be too minor to notice on this scale. There is no strict formal definition for the term, but cases of hyperinflation tend to be expressed in terms of multiples rather than percentages. 'For example, in Germany between January 1922 and November 1923 (less than two years!) the average price level increased by a factor of about 20 billion.' Some representative examples of hyperinflation include ... [various examples of terrible real-world economies]"http://www.investorwords.com/2365/hyperinflation.html
"A period of rapid inflation that leaves a country's currency virtually worthless."Ten minutes of searching yields a lot of different takes on the strict, numerical definition of hyperinflation that you've so piously presented here as though iron-clad. Almost every link I found, including the Wiki article you supplied, goes on at length to discuss the typical RL causes for, and the inevitably devasting consequences of, hyperinflation. Among the long list of results Google pulled up on hyperinflation, there were countless alarmist headlines.
Words have meaning. Hyperinflation is not just a cut-and-dried numerical formula. There's nothing about the term that's neutral or ambivalent: when you have hyperinflation, it's always a bad thing. In an environment that doesn't have (more importantly, cannot have) the terrible consequences traditionally associated with hyperinflation -- not even by analogy -- does the term even have meaning anymore? To go back to a previous analogy of yours, is evidence of rain, even very heavy rain, proof of a typhoon? Using the dictionary definition of genocide, I can make a pretty strong case that CoH Defeat Badges fit the term, but I wouldn't use it. Would you?
Regardless, even if we all accept that hyperinflation has technically occurred here -- then what? We wouldn't be allowed to discuss the appropriateness of the term? Are seriously pulling the forum police card?
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| Can you even call purples the highest luxury items in the game ? Most of the people I know have at least one really good build. |
Is it appropriate for me to point out that you claimed to have 70 billion influence banked (hardly a sign that you're panicking about the value of the currency, btw), and that perhaps your perceptions are therefore skewed?
In any case, I don't need population statistics to show that a great build can be made without purples or PvPIOs. UberGuy's 80/20 philosophy is spot-on, as far as CoH builds go. If anything, 80% performance for such builds is generally an underestimate.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Watch out, he's going to claim you speak in tongues too.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Hyperinflation.html
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hyperinflation.asp http://faculty.lebow.drexel.edu/mcca...obs/infl7.html http://www.investorwords.com/2365/hyperinflation.html Is this the part where I say that most people probably don't have and probably don't even care about bleeding-edge builds, and you say that I need exhaustive population statistics to prove it? Let me save you the effort: I can't prove it, but happily not all unprovable statements are unreasonable. We have dev commentary ("casually purpled warshade") and the obvious, comparative rarity of purples to suggest that purples are supposed to be very high-end items. Is it appropriate for me to point out that you claimed to have 70 billion influence banked (hardly a sign that you're panicking about the value of the currency, btw), and that perhaps your perceptions are therefore skewed? In any case, I don't need population statistics to show that a great build can be made without purples or PvPIOs. UberGuy's 80/20 philosophy is spot-on, as far as CoH builds go. If anything, 80% performance for such builds is generally an underestimate. |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Hyperinflation.html
"Hyperinflation is very high inflation. Although the threshold is arbitrary, economists generally reserve the term hyperinflation to describe episodes when the monthly inflation rate is greater than 50 percent. At a monthly rate of 50 percent, an item that cost $1 on January 1 would cost $130 on January 1 of the following year."http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hyperinflation.asp "Extremely rapid or out of control inflation. There is no precise numerical definition to hyperinflation. Hyperinflation is a situation where the price increases are so out of control that the concept of inflation is meaningless."http://faculty.lebow.drexel.edu/mcca...obs/infl7.html "The term "hyperinflation" refers to a very rapid, very large increase in the price level. Measurement problems will be too minor to notice on this scale. There is no strict formal definition for the term, but cases of hyperinflation tend to be expressed in terms of multiples rather than percentages. 'For example, in Germany between January 1922 and November 1923 (less than two years!) the average price level increased by a factor of about 20 billion.' Some representative examples of hyperinflation include ... [various examples of terrible real-world economies]"http://www.investorwords.com/2365/hyperinflation.html "A period of rapid inflation that leaves a country's currency virtually worthless."Ten minutes of searching yields a lot of different takes on the strict, numerical definition of hyperinflation that you've so piously presented here as though iron-clad. Almost every link I found, including the Wiki article you supplied, goes on at length to discuss the typical RL causes for, and the inevitably devasting consequences of, hyperinflation. Among the long list of results Google pulled up on hyperinflation, there were countless alarmist headlines. Words have meaning. Hyperinflation is not just a cut-and-dried numerical formula. There's nothing about the term that's neutral or ambivalent: when you have hyperinflation, it's always a bad thing. In an environment that doesn't have (more importantly, cannot have) the terrible consequences traditionally associated with hyperinflation -- not even by analogy -- does the term even have meaning anymore? To go back to a previous analogy of yours, is evidence of rain, even very heavy rain, proof of a typhoon? Using the dictionary definition of genocide, I can make a pretty strong case that CoH Defeat Badges fit the term, but I wouldn't use it. Would you? Regardless, even if we all accept that hyperinflation has technically occurred here -- then what? We wouldn't be allowed to discuss the appropriateness of the term? Are seriously pulling the forum police card? Is this the part where I say that most people probably don't have and probably don't even care about bleeding-edge builds, and you say that I need exhaustive population statistics to prove it? Let me save you the effort: I can't prove it, but happily not all unprovable statements are unreasonable. We have dev commentary ("casually purpled warshade") and the obvious, comparative rarity of purples to suggest that purples are supposed to be very high-end items. Is it appropriate for me to point out that you claimed to have 70 billion influence banked (hardly a sign that you're panicking about the value of the currency, btw), and that perhaps your perceptions are therefore skewed? In any case, I don't need population statistics to show that a great build can be made without purples or PvPIOs. UberGuy's 80/20 philosophy is spot-on, as far as CoH builds go. If anything, 80% performance for such builds is generally an underestimate. |
How dare you wear that jersey and speak to me like that. You should go to isgro and get a cannoli and be shushed.
This is a game sir. And treat it as such. This is not serious like baseball. I say u relax. And prepare to remember the name Joe blanton cause he will be your daddy.
This is written with too much yeungling.
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Just making some notes here:|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
How dare you wear that jersey and speak to me like that. You should go to isgro and get a cannoli and be shushed.
This is a game sir. And treat it as such. This is not serious like baseball. I say u relax. And prepare to remember the name Joe blanton cause he will be your daddy. This is written with too much yeungling. |
- If you state hyperinflation is overstating things, you're taking this game too seriously.
- If you agree with the OP to the extent of insulting everyone else who doesn't you will be left alone.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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You missed this |
Originally Posted by Obitus
List of links omitted for brevity
Ten minutes of searching yields a lot of different takes on the strict, numerical definition of hyperinflation that you've so piously presented here as though iron-clad. |
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I used that number because its something that can be measured. The other factors, lack of confidence in the currency, use of stable currencies we have, but we have no way to measure them.
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| Words have meaning. Hyperinflation is not just a cut-and-dried numerical formula. There's nothing about the term that's neutral or ambivalent: when you have hyperinflation, it's always a bad thing. In an environment that doesn't have (more importantly, cannot have) the terrible consequences traditionally associated with hyperinflation -- not even by analogy -- does the term even have meaning anymore? To go back to a previous analogy of yours, is evidence of rain, even very heavy rain, proof of a typhoon? Using the dictionary definition of genocide, I can make a pretty strong case that CoH Defeat Badges fit the term, but I wouldn't use it. Would you? |
Person B: What is the meaning of rain ? Rain is bad we have nothing bad happening there is no rain.
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Regardless, even if we all accept that hyperinflation has technically occurred here -- then what? We wouldn't be allowed to discuss the appropriateness of the term? Are seriously pulling the forum police card? |
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| Is this the part where I say that most people probably don't have and probably don't even care about bleeding-edge builds, and you say that I need exhaustive population statistics to prove it? Let me save you the effort: I can't prove it, but happily not all unprovable statements are unreasonable. We have dev commentary ("casually purpled warshade") and the obvious, comparative rarity of purples to suggest that purples are supposed to be very high-end items. |
I don't know how many care about bleeding edge builds, but I would be willing to bet the vast majority want a good build for their toons.
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| Is it appropriate for me to point out that you claimed to have 70 billion influence banked (hardly a sign that you're panicking about the value of the currency, btw), and that perhaps your perceptions are therefore skewed? |
IF you are going to bring that up, you could mention that
1. I have 200 billion + in IOs
2. There are limits to how much you can store
3. There are limits to how fast you can buy goods that will appreciate without driving up the price thus defeating the purpose of using them as a hedge against inflation.
Matter of fact I welcome it because it does little but highlight how weak your position is.
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| In any case, I don't need population statistics to show that a great build can be made without purples or PvPIOs. UberGuy's 80/20 philosophy is spot-on, as far as CoH builds go. If anything, 80% performance for such builds is generally an underestimate. |
So just where is the 80 and where is the 20 ?
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Absolutely |
Originally Posted by _Zep_
Ya, I have found myself wishing I had stuffed all my alts with various crafted sets and recipes years ago when I had the inf to buy them. Now I make tons more inf and can buy much less.
I think the better way, perhaps, to look at this whole thread is hours of work to item X. Inf is worth less now simply because its easier to get. |
If you go over to this thread
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=250051
You have people pumping out 3 million inf/min.
That is really affecting the inf/stuff ratio, toss in the temp recipes cluttering up the place. Inf is definitely easier to get relative to items.
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Heh, I think he was joking.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Just making some notes here:
- If you state hyperinflation is overstating things, you're taking this game too seriously. - If you agree with the OP to the extent of insulting everyone else who doesn't you will be left alone. |
And Joe Blanton's one heck of a number five starter, isn't he?
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
We should look at whether the price of basic survival goods have gone up before we ascribe inflationary forces to the game.
Basic necessities: Inspirations Single-Origin Enhancements Training Enhancements Dual-Origin Enhancements Tailor (for some, but not a necessity per se). Pretty sure Inspirations sell for 150 (?) each still, as they have for a while. Single-Origins cost a few hundred thousand influence (more or less) at varying levels. There aren't loaves of bread selling for millions of a game's currency here, the loaf of bread still costs 150 inf, you're just making more inf than is necessary for basic survival. |
We really need better information about how people spend their money in the game before taking that tack.
I have characters that I built that will never get a great build. They were made solely to provide fill ins for taskforces. Their job is to provide support functions, defense, resistance, -resistance and vengeance when needed. These don't require anything more than SOs and for me aren't great fun to play so they will never get better than SOs or commons left over from crafting.
These characters outnumber my top end characters by a good number likely 3 to 1. But, I can outfit one of them for less than 6 million or considerably less if I am going for extra storage or salvage slots when they are getting slotted out.
The bulk of my money and spending winds up concentrated in the characters I care enough about to properly outfit. 6 billion =1000* 6million. SOs can remain constant but if even one very good character is expected for players in the game the cost (of SOs) is little more than rounding error.
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If you're going to draw equivalence between my mentioning your own self-admitted behavior with respect to in-game currency and others' talking about your mother, then that speaks for itself. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Sure its appropriate, if you wish to attack me instead of my argument. It does put you solidly in with the people that felt it was appropriate to bring in my dead mother to the argument, and imply that I was a moral leper for seeing market problems and not doing anything about them.
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| Matter of fact I welcome it because it does little but highlight how weak your position is. |
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Person A: Is it raining ? Person B: What is the meaning of rain ? Rain is bad we have nothing bad happening there is no rain. |
With that in mind, your posturing is unwarranted at best, and unintentionally hilarious at worst. In order to trot out that cute raining schtick, you must take as given that there is rain, and you haven't established that except by the dubious definition above.
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If I have a build that benefits from high recharge, most blaster builds , dom builds controller builds etc, the bulk of my benefit per slot is going to come from lotg +7.5s, purples and hastens. So just where is the 80 and where is the 20 ? |
Dominators are arguably an exception. I myself have a Dominator build that has a current market value of probably 12+ billion -- but that's only because I wanted to have Domination overlap with a comfortable cushion and I wanted soft-capped ranged DEF. Not by any means a typical set of goals. Not even on the Dominator forum will you see too many people going with that approach.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Because the term hyperinflation has various and far-reaching RL implications, it is not factually incorrect to say both that we have inflation -- even extremely high inflation -- and that it isn't hyperinflation. You are free to disagree on that point, but your obsessively contrarian behavior in this thread on which you claim not even to have a strong viewpoint suggests to me that your purpose here isn't simply that you have a kind of detached, academician's preference for sound argumentation.
Person B: The roof has no leaks and we have plenty of pots
Person C: Looking out the window, Its raining
Person B: THE ROOF HAS NO LEAKS AND WE HAVE PLENTY OF POTS WHY ARE YOU TROLLING !!!!