Batman: Vigilante Plutocrat Fighting a Class War
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2011-02-01 14:24 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Maybe he doesn't actually want to clean it up. Maybe he keeps subconsciously sabotaging himself because without the corruption in Gotham, he would have no purpose.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
Not familiar with AC2, but the "progress" thing about Bruce and Gotham actually is one of the things that bugs me about Batman.
Look at all the time, money, and effort he's sunk into protecting Gotham and trying to make it a better place. Has he made any progress? For all his reputation and how much thugs are supposed to be terrified of "the Bat" they're still in Gotham, aren't they? Unless Gotham is supposed to be Bruce's own personal hell that he can never actually fix. I remember reading something about a story that either alluded to or specifically said there was some mystical reason as to why Gotham is so utterly corrupt to it's core. Did anything like that ever make it in canon? Now I understand that publishing reasons of why Gotham can't be cleaned up, but considering how, for the most part, they build on what's happened previously, it sure as hell seems that Bruce isn't helping anything and Gotham's actually -worse- off for all Bruce's done. |
Oooooh, pop psychology. I used words, so you know it's gotta be true.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
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Not really. Pretty much every time that the criminals in Gotham have caught on that Batman isn't showing up for a while, crime goes up.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
Not familiar with AC2, but the "progress" thing about Bruce and Gotham actually is one of the things that bugs me about Batman.
Look at all the time, money, and effort he's sunk into protecting Gotham and trying to make it a better place. Has he made any progress? For all his reputation and how much thugs are supposed to be terrified of "the Bat" they're still in Gotham, aren't they? Unless Gotham is supposed to be Bruce's own personal hell that he can never actually fix. I remember reading something about a story that either alluded to or specifically said there was some mystical reason as to why Gotham is so utterly corrupt to it's core. Did anything like that ever make it in canon? Now I understand that publishing reasons of why Gotham can't be cleaned up, but considering how, for the most part, they build on what's happened previously, it sure as hell seems that Bruce isn't helping anything and Gotham's actually -worse- off for all Bruce's done. |
And, again, Bruce actually does put a lot of money into social programs. But you can't just throw money at crime in general and expect it to cure greed, maliciousness, and insanity.
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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There are a number of reasons why the criminals are there. Among them is 2 major "prisons" around Gotham. Blackgate and Arkham.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
Not familiar with AC2, but the "progress" thing about Bruce and Gotham actually is one of the things that bugs me about Batman.
Look at all the time, money, and effort he's sunk into protecting Gotham and trying to make it a better place. Has he made any progress? For all his reputation and how much thugs are supposed to be terrified of "the Bat" they're still in Gotham, aren't they? |
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| Unless Gotham is supposed to be Bruce's own personal hell that he can never actually fix. I remember reading something about a story that either alluded to or specifically said there was some mystical reason as to why Gotham is so utterly corrupt to it's core. Did anything like that ever make it in canon? |
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| Now I understand that publishing reasons of why Gotham can't be cleaned up, but considering how, for the most part, they build on what's happened previously, it sure as hell seems that Bruce isn't helping anything and Gotham's actually -worse- off for all Bruce's done. |
Also the person who mentioned the AC2 thing... go read No Man's Land and the issues after it.
Calling Batman's Rogue's Gallery a "rising underclass" is a bad label.
Joker: either a super genius or raving lunatic, has seeming total randomness to his motives and actions. Conventional law enforcement can rarely handle him, and all the courts do is remand him to Arkham when Joker should face the death penalty.
Penguin: deformed at birth. Attempts to be aristocratic. Has an eccentricity when it comes to umbrellas and birds.
Riddler: eccentric genius that loves puzzle solving and matching wits with the few he deems as intellectually capable, Batman being one of them. Main weakness is that he doesn't seem to know when to stop. (as shown in Batman TAS)
Mr. Freeze: injured in cryogenic accident, exposure to chemicals forces him to life in arctic environments or with exosuits with lifesupport gear for him. Brilliant scientist who has turned his frozen genius to mastery of cold weapons.
Rha's Al Ghul: the term rising underclass definitely DOES NOT APPLY TO HIM.
Catwoman: part time burglar, part time vigilante
Poison Ivy: I think the term eco-terrorist applies to her.
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Batman spent decades as a duly authorized representative of law enforcement in the comics. (Was in the Batman Encyclopedia Fleisher did in the 70s with the appropriate original comics text quoted.) Even in the 1970s and 80s, Batman and Robin were testifying in court. (And how much of an outlaw can he be now if the police are still using the Batsignal?)|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
One does not have to be duly deputized under the law to stop criminal acts in progress(felonies that is, only law officers can do something about misdemeanors).
Of course all the investigating, wiretapping, breaking and entering, and other stuff one might have an issue with. |
As I think about it, the problem isn't Batman. It's Bruce Wayne. Back when he was just "millionaire Bruce Wayne" no one could expect that he'd have the money to fix Gotham's social injustices. Now that he's written as being richer than Bill Gates, and is spending billions of dollars on things like artificially intelligent satellites and beyond state of the line aircraft, the idea that he couldn't fund enough social programs to make a difference in Gotham tends to be harder to swallow.
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
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Bruce does fund social programs, the problems I can see are:|
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
Batman spent decades as a duly authorized representative of law enforcement in the comics. (Was in the Batman Encyclopedia Fleisher did in the 70s with the appropriate original comics text quoted.) Even in the 1970s and 80s, Batman and Robin were testifying in court. (And how much of an outlaw can he be now if the police are still using the Batsignal?)
As I think about it, the problem isn't Batman. It's Bruce Wayne. Back when he was just "millionaire Bruce Wayne" no one could expect that he'd have the money to fix Gotham's social injustices. Now that he's written as being richer than Bill Gates, and is spending billions of dollars on things like artificially intelligent satellites and beyond state of the line aircraft, the idea that he couldn't fund enough social programs to make a difference in Gotham tends to be harder to swallow. |
1. Is the money being properly used by the people that run the programs?
2. Do the people targeted by the social programs WANT to be helped?
3, Most important of all: Bruce can't be anything other then Batman. Take Batman away from him and there is nothing. Example: in Batman Beyond after he was forced to retire due to using a gun to scare that punk into running away and right into the police, he stopped doing everything else which led to Derek Powers succeeding in taking controlling interest in Wayne Enterprises, and Bruce pretty much sat in his mansion for 20 years until Terry McGinnis came along.
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True. Doesn't matter if he threw every red cent at social programs if there are corrupt people involved with them, or if the people they're supposed to help don't use the help properly..(ie to better themselves to the point they no longer need it) or don't want the help in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Bruce does fund social programs, the problems I can see are:
1. Is the money being properly used by the people that run the programs? 2. Do the people targeted by the social programs WANT to be helped? 3, Most important of all: Bruce can't be anything other then Batman. Take Batman away from him and there is nothing. Example: in Batman Beyond after he was forced to retire due to using a gun to scare that punk into running away and right into the police, he stopped doing everything else which led to Derek Powers succeeding in taking controlling interest in Wayne Enterprises, and Bruce pretty much sat in his mansion for 20 years until Terry McGinnis came along. |
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"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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Actually, Batman will more usually scare the bejeezus out of you, ask your name, suggest strongly that you've made a major error in your response to your life's misfortunes and suggest that you should call the HR department at Wayne Enterprises if you need a (better paying) job. He'll also mention off-handedly that he'll know if you do or not and he'll follow up if you choose to continue supplementing your revenue stream through illegal means.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
You due to a run of bad circumstances, end up unable to get a job and have to turn to theft to feed your family. Batman will kick the stuffing out of you, despite you deliberately making sure that you were never violent in your crimes.
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| All this despite having enough money to single handedly correct all of Gotham's none Batman related problems. |
Bruce makes plenty of money and programs available through the Wayne Foundation. That doesn't mean that everybody in Gotham who needs them uses them.
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Also, if you think Batman is harsh or almost like a dictator in how he handles things in Gotham and thinks he's always right....there is a comic character who would make Batman look tame by comparison:|
Originally Posted by Starjammer
Actually, Batman will more usually scare the bejeezus out of you, ask your name, suggest strongly that you've made a major error in your response to your life's misfortunes and suggest that you should call the HR department at Wayne Enterprises if you need a (better paying) job. He'll also mention off-handedly that he'll know if you do or not and he'll follow up if you choose to continue supplementing your revenue stream through illegal means.
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JUDGE DREDD
In that dystopian future the Judges ARE the law, and they are empowered to be judge, jury and executioner and have little to no qualms about deadly force being used. Dredd has been shown to be saving someone being attacked by criminals only to find the person he saved has contraband on them so they all get busted.
There was a Dredd story where the perpetrator was fatally wounded but had vital information they needed so the perpetrator was put into cryo storage until they could be thawed, healed, interrogated and THEN SENTENCED and the display on the cryo vault read Sentence: LIFE. So we are talking about someone who will spend years in cryo awaiting medical advances to save him only to be put in jail for life.
There was a Dredd story where a Cadet judge was interrogating people that had information about a crime, one was the cadet's mother. She wouldn't cooperate and then the cadet said "I'm going to start counting: each number is another year on your sentence, Mom" By the time he counted to three she cracked and talked. Afterwards the cadet sentenced HIS OWN MOTHER to the mandatory 15 years for her crimes plus another 3 for making him count. Dredd then states that anyone who sentences their own mother has the makes of a fine judge.
There's another tale where Dredd and one of his clone brothers are in the lawless lands and head to a wreck of a town where a politician and his aide are going to be hanged for a crime they didn't do. Dredd stops it and they find the real criminals, then take the politician and aide, still bound to another town. in this town the poltician's aide wiped out at least half the town so there would be no witnesses to the politician's scandalous affairs. They were tried in absentee and sentenced to hang. Dredd and his partner helped them get strung up. As they rode away on their Lawgivers, Dredd's partner said "nothing beats a hanging, eh?" Dredd's response "Agreed....as long as it's legal!"
Still think Batman is too harsh? Plus Batman and Dredd have had crossovers and in one of them, Dredd was sentencing Batman and at the end, Dredd wanted to drag Batman back to Dredd's dimension and lock him up. Needless to say, Batman didn't take kindly to that idea and Judge Anderson as I recall was the one that salvaged that situation.
Wayne Foundation - Started by Thomas Wayne to give back to the citizens of Gotham what crime had stolen in the form of a lot of Gold that was offered to Thomas Wayne's father that was lost in a cave on the Estate.
Neon Knights - Formed by Tim Drake to help with gang war fare.
Small Business loans given out to Gotham businesses.
The Wayne Educational Grant or whatever it's called, notably putting a few major characters through school... I think Harley Quinn is one of them... as is Stephanie Brown.
A major Financial supporter of Arkham Asylum.
A major Financial Supporter of Gotham Hospitals.
A major Financial supporter of Leslie's Free Clinic.
Another Educational grant set up so that those who can show that they are on the good and narrow growing up rather than crime they get full paid college tuition.
Many criminals who are reformed or are caught by Bats and don't give him a hard time are referred to Wayne Enterprises for various positions and he does check on it.
He shells out for Bane or was for a time.
Jean-Paul had but to ask and he was paid for.
He finance the JLA obviously ^.^ or is a large chunk of their financing.
Not to mention the adopting of or possible adopting of several children.
I believe he hosts the policeman's ball every year.
Contributes to several charities a month and hosts several charities annually.
He also recently financed the Mayor and used that leverage to get Gordon his job back.
Nope...he's above the system and could do way more for the down trodden...
If you live in Gotham you practically get a free ride as long as you're not corrupt and/or are willing to actually do something other than crime...
The question really is, why is crime so prevalent in such a situation? In the end the only real conclusion is the conclusion that Gordon made... the whole of the city is a mad house.
Look at all the time, money, and effort he's sunk into protecting Gotham and trying to make it a better place. Has he made any progress? For all his reputation and how much thugs are supposed to be terrified of "the Bat" they're still in Gotham, aren't they?
Unless Gotham is supposed to be Bruce's own personal hell that he can never actually fix. I remember reading something about a story that either alluded to or specifically said there was some mystical reason as to why Gotham is so utterly corrupt to it's core. Did anything like that ever make it in canon?
Now I understand that publishing reasons of why Gotham can't be cleaned up, but considering how, for the most part, they build on what's happened previously, it sure as hell seems that Bruce isn't helping anything and Gotham's actually -worse- off for all Bruce's done.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.