Batman: Vigilante Plutocrat Fighting a Class War
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Agonus,
Posted on: 2011-02-01 14:24 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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What redistribution? He confiscated tax money and returned it to the people who had paid the taxes in the first place.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
An illegitimate government, it must be emphasized. The redistribution of wealth is his own innovation.
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"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." -- Dinobot
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Like heck - Robin Hood's a socialist, taking back from parasitic landholders the worker's rightful share of their labors. The landholders add no value to the land, they just extract unfair rents and impoverish the people who are doing the actual work.|
Originally Posted by Wayfarer
What redistribution? He confiscated tax money and returned it to the people who had paid the taxes in the first place.
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Nice try, but... no.
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And yet Superman, in his early incarnation, certainly had a compelling social context in which to operate. In his fight to protect the innocent, he often stood up to people in authority. (Remember that time when he not only stopped a war in the 30s but also apprehended the arms manufacturers who coverted incited it?) Batman, on the other hand, had only a generalized hatred of criminals, which admittedly was part of the zeitgeist despite the repeal of Prohibition.|
Originally Posted by Starjammer
You can't really hold up the 1930's comic-book-logic "old Gotham" as a comparison to Macauley's pulp-adventure historical setting of Pueblo de Los Angeles. "Old" Batman didn't need a compelling social context under which to operate and you can't cite the lack of one as a context in and of itself.
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| The only way you can disparage Batman as an oppressor |
The implications of his crusade are another matter...
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Originally Posted by Smersh
To be fair - I think the original article has its issues, and that while Batman comes from an extremely privileged background, I don't think that class warfare is the major issue with Batman.
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As for the class dimension, Morrison is definitely aware of that: "Because for me, coming from Britain particularly, I think there’s a big class element in Batman. I like the idea that Dick Grayson was a carnival kid and kind of lower-class specimen. And Batman’s an aristocrat, a blueblood from the higher echelons of Gotham City society."
Incidentally, while I have refrained from flagging my posts with
's and 
's, I must point out that I created this thread in the spirit of intellectual playfulness. The Batman is a great character - one of my favorites - and can withstand all manner of interpretation.
One further observation to continue Padnick's comparison of Batman's and Superman's enemies: While Superman regularly encounters opponents with similar powers of super-strength and invulnerability from similar (alien) backgrounds - e.g. Bizzarro, Darkseid, Doomsday, General Zod, Mongul, and so on - Batman doesn't have a counterpart among his rogues gallery. None of his archenemies possess equivalent resources or share his background. The Penguin, a flying creature-themed, gadget-weidling arriviste, is the closest thing the Dark Knight has to a doppleganger. His superiority over them is virtually inherent.
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What about Hush? Or Prometheus? Or Bane? Or Ra's al Ghul?
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
One further observation to continue Padnick's comparison of Batman's and Superman's enemies: While Superman regularly encounters opponents with similar powers of super-strength and invulnerability from similar (alien) backgrounds - e.g. Bizzarro, Darkseid, Doomsday, General Zod, Mongul, and so on - Batman doesn't have a counterpart among his rogues gallery. None of his archenemies possess equivalent resources or share his background. The Penguin, a flying creature-themed, gadget-weidling arriviste, is the closest thing the Dark Knight has to a doppleganger. His superiority over them is virtually inherent.
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- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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Let's not pick and choose villains though.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
His superiority over them is virtually inherent.
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Poison Ivy, Bane, Killer Croc, Clayface, and others I can't think of right now; may not share Batman's resources, but are far more powerful than he is. And I would say that Ra's al Ghul has at least equal, if not superior, resources to Bruce Wayne.
EDIT: Beaten to the point!
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None of them are classic rogues gallery villains, though (Superman started encountering peers early in the Silver Age), and only Ra's has established any staying power. The Wrath, a perfunctory one-shot doppleganger, might as well be included if the role call is going to be expanded that far.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
What about Hush? Or Prometheus? Or Bane? Or Ra's al Ghul?
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Originally Posted by Cowman
Let's not pick and choose villains though.
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Says who? You will find giant friggin boards filled with Flash's rogues in the comics, and it isn't limited to Captain Cold, Trickster, Weather Wizard, and Mirror Master.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
The rogues gallery typically includes the classic villains, not the whole roster.
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Furthermore, if you want to get specific enough by saying that the lack of villains sharing the same resources and background constitutes a character representing class warfare, then there's sure a hell of a lot of them.
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
All superheroes protect the status quo. If Batman rid Gotham of all crime, or Superman created world peace, there would be no story for next month's issue.
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To break it down more simply: super-strong, invulnerable alien describes plenty of Superman's opponents throughout his career, but super-wealthy, brilliant fighter describes few of Batman's* - and none from his classic era. Recently, several writers have tried to create "anti-Batman"-style villains, but none have made it into the ranks of the A-listers.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Furthermore, if you want to get specific enough by saying that the lack of villains sharing the same resources and background constitutes a character representing class warfare, then there's sure a hell of a lot of them.
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* Ra's is more a mastermind than a fighter, but that's a borderline case.
(Padnick breaks down the rogues gallery in more detail with respect to class issues for those interested in the original article.)
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Not so, especially if you want to get picky about how to define the "classic era." With Superman you could say Bizarro, Zod, and Darkseid, but that's hardly plenty. As JMS pointed out in his run on Spider-Man, heroes can be defined by their villains (X-Men fighting mutants, Captain America fighting other patriots, Spider-Man fighting other animal-themed metas). However, this dark reflection doesn't have to be so simplistic. Batman's always been a hero with intense psychological themes, so it serves that his villains represent mental disorders. Furthermore, you can't say the assessment is based on "classic villains" from the "classic era" then switch it up by rooting it in the "A-list" categorization. Kryptonite Man could be said to be a "classic villain" but A-list? And the same goes for Captain Cold, Star Sapphire, Riddler, Cheetah, etc.
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Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
To break it down more simply: super-strong, invulnerable alien describes plenty of Superman's opponents throughout his career, but super-wealthy, brilliant fighter describes few of Batman's* - and none from his classic era. Recently, several writers have tried to create "anti-Batman"-style villains, but none have made it into the ranks of the A-listers.
* Ra's is more a mastermind than a fighter, but that's a borderline case. (Padnick breaks down the rogues gallery in more detail with respect to class issues for those interested in the original article.) |
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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Significantly more than a comparable selection for Batman (which I rank as zero, though we obviously are not going to agree on this).|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
Not so, especially if you want to get picky about how to define the "classic era." With Superman you could say Bizarro, Zod, and Darkseid, but that's hardly plenty.
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But to re-rail this thread back to Padnick's article:
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Consider the Penguin. Hes a criminal, a thug. But what really distinguishes him from other villains is his pretensions to being upper class. The tux, the monocle, the fine wine and fine women, running for mayor.... He tries to insinuate himself with actual socialites, some of whom are attracted to his air of danger, but most of whom are repulsed by his classless manners. And when his envy and resentment of his betters turns to violence, Bruce steps in to teach him his place. And its not just Mr. Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot. Hugo Strange, Black Mask, Bane, and Catwoman are all villains from lower class, dirt poor backgrounds who want to be upper class, who want to be one of the rich and famous at one of Bruces fabulous fetes, but just cant pull it off. (Well, Catwoman can, but Selinas in a class all by herself.) Even Harvey Dent, before he became Two-Face, envied and resented his friend Bruce Wayne, because Wayne had money and Harvey had to work for everything he got. And then there are the villains who have a vendetta against C.E.O.s of powerful corporations, either for revenge (Mr. Freeze, Clayface) or out of principle (Ras al Ghul, Poison Ivy). Theres a class war going on in Gotham, and Batman has taken the side of the rich. |
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But wait, isn't that comparing two different aspects of Superman and Batman?|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
To break it down more simply: super-strong, invulnerable alien describes plenty of Superman's opponents throughout his career, but super-wealthy, brilliant fighter describes few of Batman's*
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I mean, if we're looking for Batman villains that are brilliant fighters and super-wealthy; then the Superman comparison would be super-powerful and middle-class. And I don't think "middle-class" when I think of Bizarro and Darkseid.
I would actually say what sets Penguin apart is being so fat. >.>
But the simple fact that many of Batman's villains have delusions of grandeur and a greedy streak doesn't mean Batman, in fighting against those who come from the lower class, fights on the side of the rich. The rich just happen to be the target of choice for greedy psychos.
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
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I can only imagine Darksied worrying about his mortgage while taking his kids to soccer practice. The thought amuses me.
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Originally Posted by Cowman
But wait, isn't that comparing two different aspects of Superman and Batman?
I mean, if we're looking for Batman villains that are brilliant fighters and super-wealthy; then the Superman comparison would be super-powerful and middle-class. And I don't think "middle-class" when I think of Bizarro and Darkseid. |
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Since I did not read the last 2 pages i'll respond to the OT...
No.
The guy is talking more about ho he does things rather than the why he does things... to which he clearly is ignorant of.
Batman doesn't allow other masks to operate in Gotham because they cause more problems as shown during No Man's Land with Supes. And also because he doesn't want them to fall into the life he has. He understands that his life sucks in terms of the things that matters...or at least he is so guarded that he can't enjoy the fruits of his labor. Again as pointed out to Gordon when Batman talks to Gordon about huntress and says she reminds him of someone else. He didn't barbara or Dick or Tim or Stephanie or any to do what he did. The only one he ever DID say you come work with me is Todd and that went to hell.
Batman also dealt with the crime in politics because he had to. They were corrupt and impeding justice, not because he wanted to. He respects authority and respects what the police represents and expects them to treat him as they would a vigilante more or less. He also is a private citizen and expects to be treated as such. He doesn't wear a gun not because of some oath or fear, but because it is not his place. And further he expects respect from the police as much as they'd treat a citizen. For example, he took the gun off an officer when she shot him. She felt bad. She knew she did wrong. And others said that Bats would never take your gun unless you shot him and implied that they all knew that not only is that wrong but illegal.
He's also made it clear that h doesn't play judge, jury, executioner and respects the courts and when there is a conflict he says "Hey, do what you have to do. I get it, and I respect that"
He is not "above the law" and he does not "do as he pleases" Nor does he lord it over people. He does what he can in the best way he can. He has the ability to help in a particular way so he does. He does not take justice into his own hands but rather follows a strict guideline that keeps him respected and respectful of those institutions that are responsible for keeping law and order.
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Yes, even sociopaths get their day in court... AFTER they get apprehended for committing their crimes. If you're committing a violent felony, the cop doesn't give you a trial by jury before he unloads his weapon into you. Neither does the citizen with a carry permit. Neither does Batman and at least he doesn't shoot you with a lethal weapon. |
Originally Posted by Smersh
Even sociopaths deserve their day in court, and have certain rights that Batman violates. They retain those rights until they are convicted in a court of law and sentenced by a jury of their peers. That's the foundation of our civil society - that we can only be punished when we are proved guilty, because we have decided as a nation that it's better for guilty people to go free than for innocent people to be punished. Batman skips all of that, and if he's going after you, there's a presumption of guilt. And Batman's never wrong about that.
The issue is one of narrative convenience - Batman's methods are justified because every single person he goes after is a genuine criminal with no extenuating circumstances. They're bad guys, pure and simple, and no one argues that the Joker is just 'misunderstood.' That makes it easy to cheer for Batman, because all the people he goes after are EVIL. He never makes mistakes, so his unshakable belief in himself as the only source of real justice is justified. Narratively, it doesn't matter that Batman's violating their rights or brutalizing them - they're bad guys getting their comeuppance. That's cool, I can understand that - I love lots of fiction where the hero gets stuff done without worrying about technicalities. That doesn't mean that, when you step back, you realize that Dirty Harry is a bad cop and you wouldn't want him in your town, let alone the heroes of Lethal Weapon. It doesn't make Batman noble, it makes him a crypto-fascist vigilante. You can enjoy the story and gloss over it in your mind, because it's not important to the story - our heroes only do these things to the really bad guys, we're assured, and we don't worry about it. But when you do think about it, it's really hard to justify the existence of Batman. To hit your major point - Batman is a greater threat to the social order than criminals. In our social order, we know there will be criminals, and we're set up to handle that - we have police, courts, prisons. Batman says the social order is corrupt and weak, and only he and his violent methods can save us from the other, the evil scary criminals. |
By the same token, you don't even get a warning if the cops come to arrest you with a no-knock warrant after the fact. Now, we tend to discourage vigilantism because most civilians aren't as well-trained as cops to handle these situations during and after the fact. But Batman can at least make the point (in the fantasy setting) that his training and methods tend to be superior to those of law enforcement.
Batman is a vigilante but he isn't just a vigilante. The situations he gets involved with tend to fall into one of three areas: stopping a crime in progress; compiling evidence of ongoing criminal conspiracies by career criminals; acting as a consulting detective to an ongoing investigation. None of these things are illegal or unprecedented for civilians to do IRL within certain rules. Batman is a fantasy character who has unrealistic limits and therefore can unrealistically stretch those rules. Bear in mind that most of the background work that goes into Batman's investigations happens off-panel. Just as we don't watch Bruce Wayne write checks for drug-treatment centers, we don't watch Batman pull an all-nighter in front of the Bat-computer running forensic accounting analyses.
IRL, we'd stop a guy trying to be Batman because IRL nobody can do what Batman does safely or effectively. The suspension of disbelief comes with the preternatural skill and resources that Bats brings to the table coupled with the unrealistic degree of law-enforcement breakdown in his Gotham. IRL, the state or feds would have been forced to shut down Gotham's municipal government years ago.
So in the context of his world: No, Batman is not a threat to the social order. Batman is an extraordinary expression of the social order trying to maintain itself in an extraordinary setting.
Batman respects the intention of the law, and the folks that chose to serve honorably. He doesn't respect their capabilities, though. He also generally feels that he's the only person who understands the villains he deals with (well, except maybe for Alfred and he's blown his advice off plenty of times, too), and that whatever plan he comes up with is the only one that will work. There is definitely some dictator in him. That indicates a superiority complex that obviously stems from his parents murder ("I know better than you what it is like to see..."), but also has origins in his privileged upbringing and social status.
Is what he does class warfare, though? I'd say no because I don't think he looks at it like that. Whether you're rich or poor, royalty or commoner, if you're doing something wrong he'll punch you in the face and hang you from a lamp post in front of a police station. Superman would do the same thing. The difference is that Batman would be a dick about it.
While I wouldn't take it too seriously or literally, the class warfare angle is an interesting and rather valid way of looking at the Batman mythos.
When you get down to it, Bruce Wayne is a billionaire heir who would normally have no difficulity in his life at all, but he had unexpected suffering at the hands of a lower-class crook. Which also brings to mind a crackpot comparison of Batman to Buddha I read a while ago- a modern-day prince who sees great suffering for the first time in his life, and sets about a quest of transcendental change and learning to right that suffering? (which gets extra lulzy when you bring in the Superman=Jesus metaphors we all love)
Batman doesn't just fight the poor, the underpriveledged, and the outcasts of society, though that does describe his usual targets well enough to get a little disturbing. The Penguin in particular is an enemy that offsets his aristocratic background, to varying degrees (I liked the implication in The Batman that the Cobblepot family is actually broke, with the Penguin trying to restore his family fortune through crime).
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That's another thing worth looking at, though it would be hypocritical considerng Batman makes extensive use of advanced science and technology himself, often to the point of super-science. Nowadays, it could be looked at as another way in which Batman's villains reflect him, with their own brand of fancy technology.
| Then again, most of Batman's early villains tended to be mad scientist types, so perhaps the World's Greatest Detective is a crypto-anti-intellectual. |
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The early Robin Hood ballads didn't make any explanation as to his class origins, making him a noble is a later thing.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
After all, Robin Hood, Green Arrow's inspiration, was an English aristocrat who didn't forget about the common folk in his crusade against corruption. Batman's is a drunken Viennese partygoer with a grudge.
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The most recent one with Russell Crow has him being a Yeoman, which makes more sense given his signature weapon. A yeoman is certainly not an aristocrat.
Learn modesty, if you desire knowledge. A highland would never be irrigated by river." (Kanz ol-Haghayegh)
I've aways said the mere fact that Batman was a rich WASP that put on a mask and went into the city to beat up criminals made up the most un-PC of heroes.
That article is BS, though.
Learn modesty, if you desire knowledge. A highland would never be irrigated by river." (Kanz ol-Haghayegh)
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No. He "appears" to ignore them. Especially with Alfred. Alfred will say something and it is later shown that his advice is th key to everything OR it will be shown that if Bruce actually ignore Alfred that something will go wrong and he will later apologize to Alfred and say that Alfred was right.|
Originally Posted by Night_Fyre
Batman respects the intention of the law, and the folks that chose to serve honorably. He doesn't respect their capabilities, though. He also generally feels that he's the only person who understands the villains he deals with (well, except maybe for Alfred and he's blown his advice off plenty of times, too), and that whatever plan he comes up with is the only one that will work. There is definitely some dictator in him. That indicates a superiority complex that obviously stems from his parents murder ("I know better than you what it is like to see..."), but also has origins in his privileged upbringing and social status.
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
When you get down to it, Bruce Wayne is a billionaire heir who would normally have no difficulity in his life at all, but he had unexpected suffering at the hands of a lower-class crook. Which also brings to mind a crackpot comparison of Batman to Buddha I read a while ago- a modern-day prince who sees great suffering for the first time in his life, and sets about a quest of transcendental change and learning to right that suffering? (which gets extra lulzy when you bring in the Superman=Jesus metaphors we all love)
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Bruce would have experienced a lot of these problems and as such is not like the Buddha who had never experienced anything bad in his life.
Not only that...
Joker = Rich - Super Smart - Great Fighter
Penguin = Rich/Formerly Rich - Great Fighter
Riddler = Could be rich if he wanted - Super Smart
Catwoman = Rich - Great fighter
Hush = Formerly Rich... lost his fortune to Catwoman - Smart - Great fighter
Poison Ivy = Rich - Super Smart - Super Powered
Harley Quinn = Rich - Smart - Super Powered
Scarecrow = Middle Class - Super Smart - Great Fighter - Super Powered
Bane = ???? - Super Smart - Great Fighter - Super Powered
R'as al Ghul = Super extra Rich - Super smart - Great Fighter
Victor Fries = Upper Middle Class - Super Smart - Super Powered
Black Mask = Rich - Clever
Dr. Hugo Strange = Rich - Super Smart - Decent Fighter
Two-Face = Upper Middle Class - Smart - Great fighter
The Ventriloquist = Rich - Smart
Killer Croc = Poor - dumb - Good Fighter - Super Powered
The Mad Hatter = Middle Class - Super Smart - Gadget powered
Man-Bat = Upper Middle Class - Super Smart - Super Powered
This is pretty much all of Batman's "rogues gallery." A majority of them are rich. Not middle class, not poor. How they got their wealth is another issues, but they are regardlessly rich for the most part.
How they got rich *is* an important point in the author's premise. Old Money is very different than New Money...and is quite the distinction in "class" in the first place. Mobster rich is an inherently different mindset and world view than wealth that goes back multiple generations.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
No. He "appears" to ignore them. Especially with Alfred. Alfred will say something and it is later shown that his advice is th key to everything OR it will be shown that if Bruce actually ignore Alfred that something will go wrong and he will later apologize to Alfred and say that Alfred was right.
That doesn't work. It only seems to work because most people's knowledge of Batman's life only starts at the Crime Alley event and people say he had a suer happy childhood, but it is shown that Bruce had problem with teachers and had been bullied when he was young... and not to mention he saw his father having to deal with the mob on several occurrences and being strong armed ... and then there is his Grandpa Wayne who who gave Thomas Wayne a crap for quite a while that Bruce would have lived through a part of and Grandpa/Grandma Kane were sick and broke, having lost all/most of their wealth. Bruce would have experienced a lot of these problems and as such is not like the Buddha who had never experienced anything bad in his life. Not only that... Joker = Rich - Super Smart - Great Fighter Penguin = Rich/Formerly Rich - Great Fighter Riddler = Could be rich if he wanted - Super Smart Catwoman = Rich - Great fighter Hush = Formerly Rich... lost his fortune to Catwoman - Smart - Great fighter Poison Ivy = Rich - Super Smart - Super Powered Harley Quinn = Rich - Smart - Super Powered Scarecrow = Middle Class - Super Smart - Great Fighter - Super Powered Bane = ???? - Super Smart - Great Fighter - Super Powered R'as al Ghul = Super extra Rich - Super smart - Great Fighter Victor Fries = Upper Middle Class - Super Smart - Super Powered Black Mask = Rich - Clever Dr. Hugo Strange = Rich - Super Smart - Decent Fighter Two-Face = Upper Middle Class - Smart - Great fighter The Ventriloquist = Rich - Smart Killer Croc = Poor - dumb - Good Fighter - Super Powered The Mad Hatter = Middle Class - Super Smart - Gadget powered Man-Bat = Upper Middle Class - Super Smart - Super Powered This is pretty much all of Batman's "rogues gallery." A majority of them are rich. Not middle class, not poor. How they got their wealth is another issues, but they are regardlessly rich for the most part. |
Agreed.
When you look at the earlier comics, when the Gotham society and government was portrayed as less-corrupt and the crisis less "global" (oh noes! the whole city is at risk again!) you have a Batman as a wealthy man that sees beyond the distractions of his class and takes to fight against powerful criminals whose actions, more often than not, affected the underclass, not the prevailing social order.
Yes, he goes beyond investigative (and arresting) processes that the law would reasonably allow... but the main thesis in the OP quote is that he's maintaining the balance of power, which doesn't pan out over the full scope of a work that spans decades... especially when you're trying to determine the core theme.
...although I will concede that if you ignore the history and focus just on the later work, as the stories became increasingly ones of "batman is all that stands between Gotham and social disorder" the OP's quote gains some validity. This is more of a case of bad storytelling always needing the bigger-badder-nastier threat to hook readers rather than anything intentional, but even unintentional... this recent (mis)portrayal of batman does come closer to the OP quote's premise.
While it's an interesting interpretation of Batman, it doesn't really hold any more weight than any other interpretation. Every one of the points listed could be viewed in a completely different way.
But it's always fun to see someone put their own spin on things.
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