Tough and Weave can be useful on any Tanker, no matter the primary. My Stone Armor build has both. I intentionally skipped the auto resist bonus power to fit another LOTG in.
It is just a matter of math. Weave is the best pool power for adding defense. All but Stone Armor fall short of the cap on S/L resistance.
If you want help improving an actual build, post it and I'm sure someone can help you.
Tough/Weave can be helpful on almost any character really.
For a good explanation of how and why every bit of defense is more potent than the last bit you got, please read the softcap guide linked in my sig.
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tough and weave on EVERY tank..yes sir
Every Tank.. Without Fail...
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If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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The only tanker I'd call it optional on is Stone. I leveled two stone tanks to 50 without Fighting and found that ~40% ish defense to S/L with Rock Armor was adequate for light to medium tanking and fighting was pure overkill when I needed Granite.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Every Tank.. Without Fail...
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Since the issue 19 changes I've picked up Boxing/Tough/Weave on my Stone/Fire tanker and pushed S/L to the soft cap. Yeah, it does make life easier since I can avoid Granite in more situations. Still, it was an "if there's room" thing although I'm slowly coming to appreciate it on that tank.
For Invuln it's invaluable and it's quite handy for Shield. I'm also finding it useful on my Ice/Elec (just hit 31 tonight on a Citadel TF); with Weave and a fair amount of IO bonuses I'm already soft capped to S/L/E/N damage.
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The way I see it, If you chose Stone you most likely want the excessive survivability as that's what Stone does. It also lets you go non-granite and stay somewhat survivable.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
The only tanker I'd call it optional on is Stone. I leveled two stone tanks to 50 without Fighting and found that ~40% ish defense to S/L with Rock Armor was adequate for light to medium tanking and fighting was pure overkill when I needed Granite.
Since the issue 19 changes I've picked up Boxing/Tough/Weave on my Stone/Fire tanker and pushed S/L to the soft cap. Yeah, it does make life easier since I can avoid Granite in more situations. Still, it was an "if there's room" thing although I'm slowly coming to appreciate it on that tank. For Invuln it's invaluable and it's quite handy for Shield. I'm also finding it useful on my Ice/Elec (just hit 31 tonight on a Citadel TF); with Weave and a fair amount of IO bonuses I'm already soft capped to S/L/E/N damage. |
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Too much rage crashing over time? Sometimes the whole of the build has to be looked at for end drain versus end rec incl attack chains.
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Originally Posted by UberRod
Still can't figure out why my endurance sucks as I have both Quick Recovery and Stamina, each 3 slotted with end modification. I should not have been sucking wind that badly.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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My brother has a stone tank and he wondered about Tough and Weave. I figured while in Granite form that it was not that important, but out of Granite it would be important.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
The way I see it, If you chose Stone you most likely want the excessive survivability as that's what Stone does. It also lets you go non-granite and stay somewhat survivable.
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Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
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I figured it was a combo of the end cost for Tough and Weave plus Rage crashing (I tend to have Rage on auto). |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Too much rage crashing over time? Sometimes the whole of the build has to be looked at for end drain versus end rec incl attack chains.
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Without Rage or without Tough and Weave running it's much more manageable. I plan on getting Physical Perfection which should help. Plus once I get the toon slotted with sets it should help as well.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
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I would suspect that is more likely not having enough end redux built into attacks. I have a WP/SS who has Rage on Auto. The crash I can handle. What I found is that the attacks a lot of end especially KO blow and then eventually Foot Stomp can both challenge the end bar.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Too much rage crashing over time? Sometimes the whole of the build has to be looked at for end drain versus end rec incl attack chains.
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Well I dont use Tough/Weave too often either, but If I want the defense, I'll use it.
Also, concerned about psi on a invuln? I have 18% psi defense thanks to weave, combat jumping and a few chance set bonuses 
I did not intend to boost psi defense, I was just concerntrating on the others
Reguarding Willpower. It might have Quick Recovery, but Willpower kinda needs it. Its toggles are much more expensive to run and I too, start drinking that blue bar a little too quickly on my WP tankers
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I disagree. Willpower's recovery is superb and the defensive toggles are not any more endurance-hungry than the toggles in other sets. However, just because you have superb Recovery doesn't mean you can skimp on EndRed! You still need 30%+ in each toggle and attack.
As for Tough & Weave, they have a much higher Endurance cost. I shoot for 50%+ EndRed in those two.
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Yeah, when I added an end reduction SO in each attack (and also in Weave and Tough), my end problems pretty much went away. Knockout Blow was the one that was really draining endurance big time until I put the end reduction in it. |
Originally Posted by Airhammer
I would suspect that is more likely not having enough end redux built into attacks. I have a WP/SS who has Rage on Auto. The crash I can handle. What I found is that the attacks a lot of end especially KO blow and then eventually Foot Stomp can both challenge the end bar.
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Willpower seems like a pretty good set as it has damage resistance, defense and also regen and recovery all rolled into one.
And also Tough and Weave are fantastic tools.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
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I'm still a begrudging non-Convert. I suppose I need to revisit this.
On my 42 Fire/Stone, I've been tanking with just the Fire toggles and /stone's knockup mitigation. With Healing Flames and the occasional inspiration, I can tank fairly well and the damage output is great ... Fire for AoE, /stone for single target. But I have noticed that against upper-end factions (Nemesis, etc.), I am pretty squishy unless I am being actively buffed by a teammate.
My current power picks:
Fire: everything but the passive fire resist power
/stone: everything
Speed: Hasten
Leaping: CJ/SJ/Acro
Pyre: Char
Assuming I take Melt Armor and Fireball, I have just one power left to take.
To make room for Boxing/Tough/Weave, I would have to dump the tier 2 /stone attack and either Acro or Hasten (and get a couple of -knockback IOs). And then there's the endurance issues ... /stone is an End hog. I will probably end up with 50% endredux on all attacks other than Burn.
I have found that since Fitness became inherent that fitting in Tough/Weave as become quite easy. I like the bonus to resistance from Tough on my resistance tanks (Fire, Electric) and Weave on my defence tanks is brilliant (Shield, Invulnerable).
Prior to inherent Fitness my Shield/Electric thanks (which I was still leveling at the time) didn't have Tough/Weave and wasn't getting it until later on. At the time I thought he ran quite well and I was happy with his performance. After inherent Fitness came in I respec'd Tough/Weave into the build at that level and the performance went up quite a bit and I loved it. Weave also allowed me to soft cap to all positions on him as well easier as well, as it saved me from having to find that extra defence from set bonuses.
As for Boxing/Kick I just don't bother with it at all and save the slots for my other attacks.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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I think unless I was aiming to boost a Firey Aura's defence further with IO bonuses there isn't as much a need to take Weave which leaves two powers to free up. I also generally fill the KB hole on FA with IOs which I buy with Merits. That would leave one power and for me to find but I generally don't take the 2nd tier Tanker attack, but that is down to personal preference. |
Originally Posted by Whataguy
I'm still a begrudging non-Convert. I suppose I need to revisit this.
On my 42 Fire/Stone, I've been tanking with just the Fire toggles and /stone's knockup mitigation. With Healing Flames and the occasional inspiration, I can tank fairly well and the damage output is great ... Fire for AoE, /stone for single target. But I have noticed that against upper-end factions (Nemesis, etc.), I am pretty squishy unless I am being actively buffed by a teammate. My current power picks: Fire: everything but the passive fire resist power /stone: everything Speed: Hasten Leaping: CJ/SJ/Acro Pyre: Char Assuming I take Melt Armor and Fireball, I have just one power left to take. To make room for Boxing/Tough/Weave, I would have to dump the tier 2 /stone attack and either Acro or Hasten (and get a couple of -knockback IOs). And then there's the endurance issues ... /stone is an End hog. I will probably end up with 50% endredux on all attacks other than Burn. |
But then again /Stone does have a lot of control going for it including knock up, knock down, stuns etc so the need for additional protection isn't as needed as much if you were using a different secondary.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by UberRod
I have to say that until very recently I have eschewed taking Tough and Weave. I guess I didn't understand the benefit and didn't want to get stuck with Boxing as I have always preferred Air Superiority.
But after reading the Tanker forums with everyone and their brother's builds all having Tough and Weave and hearing the benefits, I broke down and respecced two of my tankers to include these two powers. With the level 50 Invuln/SS tank I only had trouble with some Rikti War Zone missions as I was set to 6 people. The only time I ran into problems was with the Mentalists who, being psychic, were able to get through my defenses. |
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My level 29 WP/SS tank really tested out the new build in the Ray Cooling arc, specifically the last one. As I was taking on the Zeus Titan solo I noticed my health bar really didn't move at all. My endurance was another matter and I was sucking wind through out the entire fight. I thought to myself that I'm doing so well, let's drop Tough and Weave to save some endurance. Then I noticed my health starting to go down. I quickly turned Tough and Weave back on and my health started to go back up to max. So I really have to say that I am now a total convert of Tough and Weave. I'm still severely missing my beloved Air Superiority but will have to accept the loss. Still can't figure out why my endurance sucks as I have both Quick Recovery and Stamina, each 3 slotted with end modification. I should not have been sucking wind that badly. |
Actually yeah, you should. Honestly you have a lot of toggles running (and one with a crash). But your attacks on top of that contribute a buttload. This is why I tend to choose Energy Mastery for my tanks.
Then I can start mashing buttons to my heart's content.
Try getting your +End accolades if you haven't already. They help. A LOT.
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yeah tough and weave is pretty much mandatory which imo is bs because we normally did not have to rely on it so heavily back in the day.
As for your endurance problem, it is mostly caused from weave but tough has a fair share of hogging up your bar as well. If you can, download mids hero builder and you can actually see the numbers and pre build your toons to fix these problems.
I don't know what mastery you are going with but you may want to consider going energy mastery and getting physical perfection and conserve power to fix all endurance problems if you don't want to use IO sets. also if you can fit a "Miracle + recovery" anywhere in your build that will help a bit, but obviously not as much as physical perfection and conserve power.
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Tanking since 05'
Vigilante
I tend to take Tough and Weave on all my tanks, although my Fire/Dark only uses Weave as a LotG mule and doesn't actually run it. He probably should, but instead he leans on a pair of self heals that are up constantly.
Normally I wouldn't bother with Fighting on a Stone Tank, however my Stone/DM is being built to tank LR completely unaided and the additional defense from Weave is an essential part of the build. It's also useful for soloing large spawns while not in Granite, as well as the ability to be present when exemplaring to low levels where Granite is not an option to begin with (my spec will be taking this into account for weekly TF purposes).
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Also has a -acc debuff and the uncommon psychic resistance.
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Originally Posted by UberRod
Yeah, when I added an end reduction SO in each attack (and also in Weave and Tough), my end problems pretty much went away. Knockout Blow was the one that was really draining endurance big time until I put the end reduction in it.
Willpower seems like a pretty good set as it has damage resistance, defense and also regen and recovery all rolled into one. And also Tough and Weave are fantastic tools. |
I went ahead and respecced into boxing and tough on my fire/stone. I have to say it has made a difference in survivability and I didn't miss hasten and acrobatics (after I plugged in a -KB IO I'd stashed away).
Re: endurance cost of the Fighting toggles, in my case anyway endredux has never been optional. I have it in everything, and two SO's worth in major end hogs like blazing aura and the stone attacks. Even with ~ 50% endredux, I'm still waiting on Consume to recharge and popping blue candy. Of course, I am an unrepentant button-masher.
I have to say that until very recently I have eschewed taking Tough and Weave. I guess I didn't understand the benefit and didn't want to get stuck with Boxing as I have always preferred Air Superiority.
But after reading the Tanker forums with everyone and their brother's builds all having Tough and Weave and hearing the benefits, I broke down and respecced two of my tankers to include these two powers.
With the level 50 Invuln/SS tank I only had trouble with some Rikti War Zone missions as I was set to 6 people. The only time I ran into problems was with the Mentalists who, being psychic, were able to get through my defenses.
My level 29 WP/SS tank really tested out the new build in the Ray Cooling arc, specifically the last one. As I was taking on the Zeus Titan solo I noticed my health bar really didn't move at all. My endurance was another matter and I was sucking wind through out the entire fight.
I thought to myself that I'm doing so well, let's drop Tough and Weave to save some endurance. Then I noticed my health starting to go down. I quickly turned Tough and Weave back on and my health started to go back up to max.
So I really have to say that I am now a total convert of Tough and Weave. I'm still severely missing my beloved Air Superiority but will have to accept the loss.
Still can't figure out why my endurance sucks as I have both Quick Recovery and Stamina, each 3 slotted with end modification. I should not have been sucking wind that badly.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!