Doc Quantum and the Uncomfortable Mutterings (Wild Speculation!)
By
Arilou,
Posted on: 2011-01-25 18:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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You mean how like the society we live in here in the USA is still enslaved to the ideaology of a charismatic leader who was elected 31 years ago? |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You mean Praetorian Stefan Richter who Tyrant murdered?
 There's also the fact that after 25 years of dictatorship, an entire generation exists who haven't been given a say on how they're governed - they're enslaved by a dictatorship that their parents and grandparents voted for. |
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
I'm in awe. We've jumped from tyrant to genocide to dictator to god-emperor.
Like, damn, darling. I need hyperbole to describe to hyperbole you're using.
As to refutations... well, I think I can hit most of the highlights in one fell swoop, which looks something like this:
Cite a gawd-damned source. Not something a Resistance member says, not a deduction made from the premise "If Cole were evil...", no, go find me an irrefutable instance wherein Cole, on his onesies, demonstrates a flagrant abuse of his government's power. Then, he's a tyrant. Until then, he's a dick, he's incompetent, he shouldn't be in control, true. But without abuse, there isn't tyranny.
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Everyone grows up with bias and influence from the society they grew up in. Would you be chomping for radical and universal freedom as hard as you are if you grew up in Soviet Russia twenty-five years ago? (Hint: there are two answers to that question. The one that isn't ridiculous is 'no'.)| There's also the fact that after 25 years of dictatorship, an entire generation exists who haven't been given a say on how they're governed - they're enslaved by a dictatorship that their parents and grandparents voted for. |
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| "They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power." |
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His very existence, along with his evil dictatoirship, is an abuse of power. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Cite a gawd-damned source. Not something a Resistance member says, not a deduction made from the premise "If Cole were evil...", no, go find me an irrefutable instance wherein Cole, on his onesies, demonstrates a flagrant abuse of his government's power. Then, he's a tyrant. Until then, he's a dick, he's incompetent, he shouldn't be in control, true. But without abuse, there isn't tyranny.
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Plus, of course, there's also the dev quote saying "Emperor Cole is an actual tyrant"
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| Everyone grows up with bias and influence from the society they grew up in. Would you be chomping for radical and universal freedom as hard as you are if you grew up in Soviet Russia twenty-five years ago? (Hint: there are two answers to that question. The one that isn't ridiculous is 'no'.) |
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| In a moment of meta... something, I've quoted your quote. Unfortunately, I don't really have any context for it, or even a work it came from, so that's about as snarky as I can get. Sorry. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I'd say Singapore's a better example, since our founding leader is still leading to an extent. Well, other than actually being a good guy. (course, there are those who would say otherwise too)
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Originally Posted by BigFish
You mean how like the society we live in here in the USA is still enslaved to the ideaology of a charismatic leader who was elected 31 years ago?
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Well, I really like Marcian's theory/idea.
Even if it is not correct... They should switch to that.
They won't even have to tell us that they've retcon'd it.
They can just Marcian it.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I think the most interesting stuff in the tip missions are the rumblings about (another) Council Civil War (this time between Reqqy's and Arky's Nictus-faction and the Centre's & Maestro's human faction...)
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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If a dev told you to get in the white van, 'cause there's some candy in it, would you?
| Plus, of course, there's also the dev quote saying "Emperor Cole is an actual tyrant" |
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Not to mention that "actual tyrant" can easily be taken to mean "absolute ruler" ala. the greek roots of the word |
Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
If a dev told you to get in the white van, 'cause there's some candy in it, would you?
|
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
There is however the nagging bit about Enriche. Both Dark Watcher and the Resistance believe that it's one of the key factors allowing Praetorian Cole to control the masses, and without it, the true face of Cole would be revealed. If assuming it's true there would be some truth in "forceful manipulation", only that people don't know because well, that's what Enriche does.
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I'm so confused whenever I try to figure out what's going on there.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
I think the most interesting stuff in the tip missions are the rumblings about (another) Council Civil War (this time between Reqqy's and Arky's Nictus-faction and the Centre's & Maestro's human faction...)
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I just pretend the Council and 5th Column are all the same and it gets easier. And that they're the most incompetent villains ever.
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Hey, I just wanted to say thanks for turning another good thread into your personal soapbox rant. I know this is one of your favorite issues, so it's a good thing you take every opportunity to turn every thread into it.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And the "peasants" are being taught the same thing in Praetoria
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
EDIT: Double post
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There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Every thread is Tyrant thread. :/
On the Actual Topic of the Actual Thread: while there are plotlines related to a slow unraveling of the Bane Spider psychic web, I think there's also enough leeway in what Marcian observed to indicate that some outside force is fiddling with Arachnos minds. Praetoria, as the Big New Thing, is the obvious candidate, but there are so many other people who might do such a thing that it's hard to say. Here are some other candidates:
Sister Psyche - due to heroism
Malaise (primal) - due to heroism
Serafina - due to heroism; does it in Scirocco's arc
Scirocco - fiddling with the Malleus Mundi again
The Evil Spirit of Red Widow - trying to kill Ghost Widow by killing Arachnos, to whose existence she is tied, due to jealousy
Dr. Echo - having seen so many exploded Recluse Victory Futures, has decided to undermine Arachnos through Wacky Time Hijinks
The Clockwork King - misguided heroism, trying to protect Penny Yin
Of course, some of these theories are pretty wild. But there's one thing I'm confident of: it will probably end up being a Nemesis Plot.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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It was already a Nemesis plot back in the RWZ.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Of course, some of these theories are pretty wild. But there's one thing I'm confident of: it will probably end up being a Nemesis Plot.
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"All hail Lord...Recluse!"
No,no,no, it's all a side effect of the mandated 2 hour television breaks.
Finally the new rec schedule has filtered through the system and Arachnos Soldiers can watch more TV.
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In all fairness I started this.
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Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Hey, I just wanted to say thanks for turning another good thread into your personal soapbox rant. I know this is one of your favorite issues, so it's a good thing you take every opportunity to turn every thread into it.
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We have proof that Tyrant is a powermad gloryhound. He has a 400-story tall tower that you can see from virtually EVERYWHERE. "It's all about MEEEEEEEE!!!"
Statesman has... an aircraft carrier. And a helicopter. (And one Longbow officer there to make sure he doesn't leave.) In a zone that almost no one visits. Even Lusca won't spawn near him. That's humility right there, folks. Or else REALLY bad halitosis.
On the other hand, Statesman has a TF. Tyrant doesn't.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
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I think that's just major overcompensating - which explains why Dominatrix is starting to look elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
We have proof that Tyrant is a powermad gloryhound. He has a 400-story tall tower that you can see from virtually EVERYWHERE. "It's all about MEEEEEEEE!!!"
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I smell an AE idea (that's probably been done a million times already by now).
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
On the other hand, Statesman has a TF. Tyrant doesn't.
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Her track record isn't that great, either.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think that's just major overcompensating - which explains why Dominatrix is starting to look elsewhere.
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First, grandpa. So heinous that even the creators went "squick."
Second, Anti-Matter. The guy stuck in his armor. Not sure who has more personal boundaries issues there.
Third, Neuron. The two-timing tomcat with the attention span of a hummingbird on crack. As brief and exciting as a bottle rocket, and about as lasting.
Never mind the whole Statesline pairing. We need to pair Faultline with Domi. Someone who will stick by her no matter how kinky, stupid, or dangerous she is. Someone who looks beyond that foofy exterior and sees the woman inside. Someone who has cut his relationship teeth on a yutz like Fusionette and still hasn't decided to bat for the other side, if you'll forgive the expression.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
It's a shame that the OP's intriguing speculations are being sidelined by the Emperor Cole/Tyrant apologists.
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Just to get this out of the way, Tyrant, in his farewell to the player in the Paragon City option for Loyalists, freely confesses to having hands "stained with blood", a policy against allowing humanity free will, and plans to "wipe away" Primal Earth. If you won't take him at his word, then there's no convincing you that the epithet Tyrant is appropriate.|
Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
No, it makes him a ******. He's not an abusive ruler until he actually uses his political power to enforce these things.
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Back to the topic at hand:
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Of course, some of these theories are pretty wild. But there's one thing I'm confident of: it will probably end up being a Nemesis Plot.
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The way I understand it...|
Originally Posted by Symar
I'm so confused whenever I try to figure out what's going on there.
I just pretend the Council and 5th Column are all the same and it gets easier. And that they're the most incompetent villains ever. |
Arachnos was the "original" villain group, founded in Italy some time in the early 20th century.
The 5th Column is a separate, fascist group, created in 1938 by Requiem (should probably be noted that Requiem is italian, not german)
The Council is a separate group (that split off from Arachnos) led by the Centre.
Quite recently (with the help of time-travelling PC's) the 5th column was overthrown by the Council, the vast majority of it's leadership simply switched sides (no one knows the Centr'es powers, but he can apparently be VERY persuasive)
Now, to further confuse this, for a while the 5th was controlled by the Reichsman (alternate statesman from Axis America Earth) who usurped control from Requiem. Requiem seems to be the Nictus' main contact on earth (and it's probably time-travelling Requiem who introduced Romulus to the Nictus)
Now, for a while the 5th column was undergroundm but recently the Reichsmann was broken out by sheer stupidity, and he apparently resumed control, which made most of the 5th column rank-and-file join up back with him.
However, the entire leadership (Requiem, Nosferatu, Vandal, Arakhn, Burkholder, etc. etc.) seems to have stayed on with the Council.
Only now there's apparently some kind of split between these two too, one tip mission mentions that Dirge of Entropy (Requiem's Nictus half) has some kind of plan, and the Centre apparently wants to stop it.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Legal according to what law? There's no indication that it was undemocratic. (although that is an absence of information more than anything else) And even if it were illlegal, it would not be undemocratic because of that.| That's not a legal, democratic election. |
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| I only have our UN Security Council to go by, but they don't have the power to elect a Consul of the Earth on this Earth, no matter the circumstances, and they certainly don't speak with the full authority of the governments that they represent, nor the authority of the people of those nations, in nations where the leaders are democratically-elected. Most of them aren't even elected from their nations, but rather appointed to the position. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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You're confusing the greek "tyrant" with the roman "dictator", the latter was indeed a temporary appointment in terms of crisis (Caesar made it permanent) the greek tyrants were simply people who managed to grab absolute power. (Usually by quite informal means, eg. bribery, good speaking skills, and friends with big muscles) they tended to not formalize their positions (with the exception of Syracusae)
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Yes, the original meaning of 'tyrant' was one who had absolute power.
The Athenians found that useful in times of war. Then they get all uppity when the tyrant refused to relinquish said power when the war is over. Same thing happened entering the Age of Enlightenment when 'power to the people' hippies disparaged the tyranny of monarchs which was perfectly fine for feudal Europe... at least that's what the peasants were taught. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Quote:
Yeah, it does seem that few seem eager to continue this line of dialogue --and I hope a review of my thoughts on the subject vindicates me when I say I was partially in it "for the lulz", as it were -- so the quick and dirty rebuttal is that all of these things by themselves are concerning, problematic, and bad. But they don't, by themselves, actually mean abuse of power, and so they don't actually make him a tyrant.|
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
It's a shame that the OP's intriguing speculations are being sidelined by the Emperor Cole/Tyrant apologists.
Just to get this out of the way, Tyrant, in his farewell to the player in the Paragon City option for Loyalists, freely confesses to having hands "stained with blood", a policy against allowing humanity free will, and plans to "wipe away" Primal Earth. If you won't take him at his word, then there's no convincing you that the epithet Tyrant is appropriate. |
Ya know what, though? On the level, yeah, Cole is probably a tyrant. Just as there's no way he could gear up for a war without his government not noticing, there's no way his government could display the levels of corruption it does, while retaining the levels of competency it does, without him noticing. And even were he not a tyrant, he's still a complete dick, and a moral sinkhole, and a jaggoff who had to be retcon'd out of bonking his granddaughter so he'd be repulsive for his authoritarian regime, not his taste in consenting adults. There are things I find appealing about Praetoria, but their ruling class is not one of them, and indeed, would really, really need to go before I considered living there. And any continued argument denying that is grounded in splitting hairs and solipsism.
Or, to put it simply, Cole's tyranny is irrelevant; he's still horrible.
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"