First impressions of the "gray" alignments


Airhammer

 

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Originally Posted by Signpost View Post
I'm considering Malta actually, but there's just a little too much "going against everyone" to fit in. But is is the closest I can think of with sufficient spread and with a sufficiently close motive, to be rogue as opposed to villain.
I think they'd be closer to vigilante than rogue, actually.

KoA on the other hand, could totally be rogue.


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om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."

 

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Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
I think they'd be closer to vigilante than rogue, actually.

KoA on the other hand, could totally be rogue.
Ah, but the Knives of Artemis are closely related to Malta. Also, Malta is much too villainous to be really considered vigilante.


 

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
You can't do anything though. You can do your side's content or go to the other side and try to find someone to tag along with because you're still locked out of doing any content yourself.
Not entirely true.

If you're a "tourist", you can get the radio/newspaper contacts for the side you visit and run those missions plus Safeguard or Mayhem missions, whichever is applicable. you can also earn contacts by doing those, though you won't be able to speak to them until you fully switch sides. Also, many of the tip missions for Vigilantes in the Isles and Rogues in Paragon are now more fitting thematically for the two gray alignments.

That said, Vigilantes and Rogues are designed to really just be middle points on a player's way to fully switching the alignment of a character. For most in-game systems where alignment still matters, they're considered to be their starting alignments. They have, more or less, just been given extended travel capabilities. As such, I don't think there SHOULD be parity between them and the two original alignments in terms of rewards and contacts. And I say this as someone who's main character is and will likely always be a Rogue.


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Originally Posted by Signpost View Post
Ah, but the Knives of Artemis are closely related to Malta. Also, Malta is much too villainous to be really considered vigilante.
Malta (as they see it) are trying to protect the world (or at least America) from anything that threatens it: Communism, superpowered beings, whatever. They're clearly a vigilante group. They don't want to take over the world, they just want to eliminate any threats.

They're clearly vigilantes, as they operate outside the law to try to eliminate threats to it.

They also seem to work with more radical and vigilante-ish people (like Officer Freymuth)

They're not in it for the money (rogue) or to take over the world (villain). They're here to (as they see it) punish bad guys.

Speaking of which, Sky Raiders is another rogue-ish faction.

EDIT: My understanding is that the KoA are related to Malta in that Malta tends to hire them. They're a mercenary org, so they don't really have any loyalty except for that to a good employer.


"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."

 

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Originally Posted by Goliath Bird Eater View Post
If you're a "tourist", you can get the radio/newspaper contacts for the side you visit and run those missions plus Safeguard or Mayhem missions, whichever is applicable. you can also earn contacts by doing those, though you won't be able to speak to them until you fully switch sides.
I mentioned radio/newspapers earlier but anyone calling those "content" needs to be examined by a professional. They're filler material with throw-away joke plots ("Find the PLOT Device!") meant to plug the holes between the real content arcs.

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That said, Vigilantes and Rogues are designed to really just be middle points on a player's way to fully switching the alignment of a character.
Being able to "explore the shades of gray that lie between Heroes and Villains" was one of the selling points of the expansion. There's very, very little to explore and they should work on that.


 

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You could certainly use groups like Wyvern and Vanguard. They're already either not trusted by some heroes or operate w/o their official consent. Even Longbow. Freymuth would be a perfect vigilante contact.

Rogues could work with groups out for themselves that aren't in lock-step with Recluse. Goldbrickers might indeed be nice. Sky Raiders certainly. Arachnos agents out for themselves (actually...it's probably the case that half the villain game is really just rogue anyway).

Maybe a Corolax contact.

Doc Quantum can be...something (though it seems like they are building him up for something already).


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Posted

IMO, the 'Extreme' Alignments of Hero/Villain should be rarer than the grayer Rogues/Vigilantes.

The incentive to be a Hero/Villain should be a decent carrot, but not so great that they vastly outnumber the Fencesitters.

Give Rogues/Vigilantes A-Merits, but make their purchasables a bit more expensive (someone suggested 3 A-Merits for a recipe - sounds about right), and for the love of God give them more gray content and the ability to run their Factions Tips when Touring (etc. Vigilante Tips in Rogue Isles).

While we're wishing, I think Heroes/Villains should be able to 'tour' as well in some limited fashion. Say, Heroes can go to Rogue Isles and run Hero Tips missions, but cannot use BM, etc. When not in instanced missions, their presence will eventually trigger some sort of ambush or police force to drive them out (but not Flagged PvP). It should be something pretty overwhelming, so that Hero/Villains can't just feel like they can roam around freely in 'enemy territory'.


 

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Being able to "explore the shades of gray that lie between Heroes and Villains" was one of the selling points of the expansion. There's very, very little to explore and they should work on that.
I'd say it was true in the Praetoria content. It would be nice to see some of that carried over to the "old" game.


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Posted

With like pretty much everything else in this game there are pros and cons to "going gray" versus "staying true" alignment wise. I simply maximize the pros and minimize the cons by having different alts spread across all the alignments. This way I have access to A-merits if I need them and I have other alts who can instantly play red or blue side if needed.

I don't see the "gray" alignments as strictly a bad or lesser option. I just work the system to get the best advantages regardless.


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Posted

I have a few rogues and vigilantes, more for concept than utility - those are simply the alignments that fit the characters. I haven't done much if any content on the other side, and probably won't. I also have several "pure" heroes and villains, more than enough to fill all of my play time by running Tips for A-merits, if I chose. So for me at least, the bottleneck/limit is not in the inability of the "grays" to earn A-merits. I have other characters for that.


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Being able to say "I've mitigated the weaknesses in the system by spending additional time playing additional characters and spreading the rewards thinner among my ineligible characters" is great from a "I'm glad you found a way to be content" perspective. As a defense for the weaknesses in the first place though, it's rather lacking.


 

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While I'd agree that there are plenty of NPC groups already in the game that could count as already being of the vigilante persuasion, I don't think there's really any group that could be seen as entirely rogue.

I'd think that a rogue group would be just as willing to work with Longbow as it would with Arachnos. They'll do whatever job, as long as it pays. Neither side would fully trust them, of course. But they would be great to use as intermediaries between black and white.

Some rogue groups might also be interested in keeping both both black and white fighting against each other. Especially if, say, they enjoy the killing they make in selling weapons and equipment to both Arachnos and Longbow...

Oh hey, you know, this almost describes what the Crey corporation does. Only the countess Crey is a bit too much of a card carrying villain, and that whole "Paragon Protector" thing they got going. But they totally got the "selling weapons to both sides" thing going on.


 

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Being able to say "I've mitigated the weaknesses in the system by spending additional time playing additional characters and spreading the rewards thinner among my ineligible characters" is great from a "I'm glad you found a way to be content" perspective. As a defense for the weaknesses in the first place though, it's rather lacking.
It's mostly a matter of perspective and priorities.

Anything important I can obtain via A-merits with heroes or villains can be emailed to any other character of any alignment. The "coolness" of A-merits is not really enough a strength to prove that rogues and vigilantes are at a disadvantage as far as that goes.

As for the alignment powers sure it's pretty obvious the hero/villain ones are better than the rogue/vigilante ones. But over the last six months I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've used/needed those powers on any alt of any alignment. Again this is an advantage for heroes and villains "on paper" but in reality it's relatively meaningless.

So, after you account for these supposed advantages it really boils down to whether or not the flexibility of instant access to both sides of the game is important to you or not. For some it is and others it isn't. But if it's not important to you that doesn't automatically imply that option is a "weaker" one unless it makes you happy to call it that. Whatever floats your boat I guess. *shrugs*


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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven View Post
I'd think that a rogue group would be just as willing to work with Longbow as it would with Arachnos. They'll do whatever job, as long as it pays.
I don't see them quite that way. A rogue (in my view) wouldn't take a job as CEO of a corporation for a $6mil salary but he'd spend a year planning a $6mil bank heist. Now, he might take the CEO job if he thought he could embezzle another $12mil on top of his lawful salary.

Longbow saying "We'll pay you to bodyguard this ambassador" wouldn't interest a rogue nearly as much as being paid an equal amount to do some breaking-and-entry into a Crey facility. It's the thrill of the illicit hunt combined with the reward at the end. You could happily point it towards "good" (like the government paying hackers to infiltrate an enemy nation's systems) but you need the thrill get your interest.


 

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Now that I think about it some more, the devs could totally make a rogue faction out of the combined hero and villain markets.

Right now, they're still pretending to be different, what that you still have the Black Market trucks in the Isles, and the Wentworths buildings in Paragon. They could both be replaced with something a bit more dashing, says I. There could be rogue-only contacts for them, with missions and arcs where the main concern is keeping those trade routes open and keeping both Longbow and Arachnos out of their affairs.

Maybe you could even have the occasional "rogue with a heart of gold" thing going on, where some Evil McNasty villain has absconded with a doomsday device for their own nefarious purposes. Of course you're just going after them because they stole it from the warehouse or failed/refused to pay you (because they're evil!), or something. Then after you defeat the bad guy, the Longbow come in and try to arrest you and take the doomsday weapon for safe keeping, and then you get to do your tricky magic to get away from them.

Or something like that.


 

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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
So, after you account for these supposed advantages it really boils down to whether or not the flexibility of instant access to both sides of the game is important to you or not. For some it is and others it isn't. But if it's not important to you that doesn't automatically imply that option is a "weaker" one unless it makes you happy to call it that. Whatever floats your boat I guess. *shrugs*
I'd call the large disparity between "pure" and "gray" alignments in population numbers and the amount of people who qualify being happy with their gray aligned characters by saying "Because I can get A-Merits on this other guy" (as opposed to "because running SFs is worth more to me than A-Merits") the basis of gray alignments being less valuable to players. On a per character basis, without outside assistance, it seems that characters would rather go pure. That they can mitigate this by investing more time and character slots to overcome the shortcomings of a character's alignment choice only serves to call attention to the issue in the first place.

If you could only have characters that were gray or ones that were pure, which do you think most players would go for?


 

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
I don't see them quite that way. A rogue (in my view) wouldn't take a job as CEO of a corporation for a $6mil salary but he'd spend a year planning a $6mil bank heist. Now, he might take the CEO job if he thought he could embezzle another $12mil on top of his lawful salary.
I don't think a rogue faction would pull off a bank heist on their own. A lone rogue might do it from time to time, but they'd be more interested in doing things a bit more low key. I'd imagine that a lot of them might be bounty hunters and arms dealers.

A vigilante might rob a bank, if they were a "Robin Hood", and they believe the ruling government is corrupt. So you might see bank heist missions for vigilantes in the Rogue Isles, and you get a little blurb about how the money taken was given to the poor citizens.

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Longbow saying "We'll pay you to bodyguard this ambassador" wouldn't interest a rogue nearly as much as being paid an equal amount to do some breaking-and-entry into a Crey facility. It's the thrill of the illicit hunt combined with the reward at the end. You could happily point it towards "good" (like the government paying hackers to infiltrate an enemy nation's systems) but you need the thrill get your interest.
I don't think Longbow would generally trust any rogue to act as a bodyguard. There would have to be a lot of extenuating circumstances for them to even consider it, such as needing plausible deniability.


 

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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven View Post
I don't think a rogue faction would pull off a bank heist on their own.
I could easily imagine a "thieves guild" type who did that stuff. Rogues are still "bad guys", just ones who are in it for the money.

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I don't think Longbow would generally trust any rogue to act as a bodyguard.
I didn't mean to imply they would, I was just illustrating that rogues (in my opinion) aren't really into "straight work" even if it pays well. It needs to have more of a thrill element.


 

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
I could easily imagine a "thieves guild" type who did that stuff. Rogues are still "bad guys", just ones who are in it for the money.
Han Solo was a rogue. Proof: He shot first! Later on, he used his roguish talents for the benefit of the Rebel Alliance. A rogue, working for rebels!

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I didn't mean to imply they would, I was just illustrating that rogues (in my opinion) aren't really into "straight work" even if it pays well. It needs to have more of a thrill element.
I say that depends on the rogue. Remember that the Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #34 is "War is good for business," but Rule of Acquisition #35 is "Peace is good for business."


 

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
I'd call the large disparity between "pure" and "gray" alignments in population numbers and the amount of people who qualify being happy with their gray aligned characters by saying "Because I can get A-Merits on this other guy" (as opposed to "because running SFs is worth more to me than A-Merits") the basis of gray alignments being less valuable to players. On a per character basis, without outside assistance, it seems that characters would rather go pure. That they can mitigate this by investing more time and character slots to overcome the shortcomings of a character's alignment choice only serves to call attention to the issue in the first place.

If you could only have characters that were gray or ones that were pure, which do you think most players would go for?
Up until Issue 18 we only had two options for alignments. Now we have four. These four alignments come with their own pros and cons. Frankly I couldn't care less which ones the playerbase prefers more than the others. By the type of logic you're driving at here you'd get rid of the least popular AT even if that meant you'd piss off some several thousand players by doing that because solving the "problem" of that AT being the least popular was more important to you.

I think it's relatively pointless to try to quantify which of these things are "better" or "worse" when in the long run all they can possibly represent are expanded CHOICES for us to play with. If you think A-merits are more important to you than side-switching then play Heroes and Villains. If you think the opposite then play Rogues and Vigilantes. Is there an actual problem with that for you?

Frankly this idea of trying to claim that the equivalent of chocolate ice cream is somehow the "weaker option" or at a disadvantage to vanilla ice cream is a pointless exercise in "fixing" something that really isn't a problem to begin with. *shrugs*

P.S. Keep in mind people like me already had a bunch of alts to begin with. I didn't feel a need to create new alts just to "mitigate" this supposed systemic problem. I simply chose to view this whole situation as the non-issue it actually is and spread my alts out alignment wise as I saw fit mostly for RP reasons to be perfectly honest. The fact that I "covered all my bases" alignment wise was actually a secondary concern at best.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
By the type of logic you're driving at here you'd get rid of the least popular AT even if that meant you'd piss off some several thousand players by doing that because solving the "problem" of that AT being the least popular was more important to you.
Ermmm.... what?

No, by that logic I'd say "Hey, maybe the least popular AT's should be looked at so we can figure out why they're so unpopular and try to fix the situation."

I never say "get rid of gray alignments", I said "make them worth using". I have no clue where on earth you're coming from with the above.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
I think it's relatively pointless to try to quantify which of these things are "better" or "worse" when in the long run all they can possibly represent are expanded CHOICES for us to play with. If you think A-merits are more important to you than side-switching then play Heroes and Villains. If you think the opposite then play Rogues and Vigilantes. Is there an actual problem with that for you?
I really don't understand you one bit. Are you for or against A-merits for Rogues and Vigilantes, or what?

And if they did get A-merits, why would you even care if they did? It's not like it would cause you to be able to play less, or whatever.

Yeah, your complaints here just make no sense at all.


 

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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven View Post
Han Solo was a rogue. Proof: He shot first! Later on, he used his roguish talents for the benefit of the Rebel Alliance. A rogue, working for rebels!
Clarification: "Rogues" in the CoX universe are still classified as bad guys. This goes back to the "Rogues can't talk to blueside contacts" side discussion


 

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Clarification: "Rogues" in the CoX universe are still classified as bad guys. This goes back to the "Rogues can't talk to blueside contacts" side discussion
LOL! Well played, Jophiel. Well played.


 

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Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
Ermmm.... what?

No, by that logic I'd say "Hey, maybe the least popular AT's should be looked at so we can figure out why they're so unpopular and try to fix the situation.

I never say "get rid of gray alignments", I said "make them worth using". I have no clue where on earth you're coming from with the above.
My point is pretty obvious if you give it a moment of thought.

In any game like this there will always be something that's considered the "worse" or "least" favorable option by a majority of the playerbase. The Devs could certainly spend time trying to improve that worst thing, but ultimately there will ALWAYS be something less desirable than the other unless all the things in question were made cookie-cutter identical.

The only total solution to this would be for the Devs to spend time making all the alignments 100% identical. Frankly I would consider that a fruitless and undesirable option for many reasons even assuming it were possible.

Basically you may be right that there's a perception of one set of alignments being less desirable than the other in this case. I just disagree that there's actually a need (or even the feasible possibility) of a "solution" to this. The system is currently balanced on its pros and cons. No one alignment deserves to "have it all" even if you want that really, really badly. Sorry.


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