willpower brute vs. tanker
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-01-04 17:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
A brute only has 75% of the resistance and defense that a Tanker has.|
Originally Posted by Gundam Ghost
can someone pls tell me why a willpower tanker will have more resistance and a willpower burte? i went on mids and built both builds and the tanker has more hp as usual but more resistance that seems odd to me pls help. and more def i thought that the devs didnt made it that the builds were even across the board.
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If a power gives a tank 10% resist smashing/lethal, it gives the brute 7.5% resist.
If a power gives a tank 5% defense, it gives the brute 3.75% defense.
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... because Tanks have more resistances and defenses than brutes. |
Originally Posted by Gundam Ghost
can someone pls tell me why a willpower tanker will have more resistance and a willpower burte? i went on mids and built both builds and the tanker has more hp as usual but more resistance that seems odd to me pls help. and more def i thought that the devs didnt made it that the builds were even across the board.
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http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Tanker
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Brute
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Scrapper
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker
You are getting Tanks confused with scrappers.
Scrappers and Brutes share relatively the same total defensive values.
Tanks do not share defensive values with Scrappers or Brutes.
Tank values are higher.
Tanks used to share the same hit point cap as Tanks. As of Issue 18 Tanks also get a higher HP cap: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Hit_Points
All Tanks and Brutes share now are the same resistance cap values: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Resistan...age_Resistance
The tank will have 33% more defense and resistance than a Brute (scale 1 vs 0.75).
You may be looking at the regeneration values and seeing that they are the same. The only thing that doesn't change is the regeneration percentage-- this is because the Tank has more base HP which means that while both sets might have 500% regeneration, the tank will be receiving more hp/second.
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Just to add one clarification to what people mentioned above Tanks get higher vales for defensive powers to make up for the fact that brutes get Fury. While Tankers and Brutes have about the same base damage (Tankers are actually a little higher) Brutes get Fury which gives them a damage buff meaning that Brutes get a higher total damage.
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Originally Posted by Gundam Ghost
can someone pls tell me why a willpower tanker will have more resistance and a willpower burte? i went on mids and built both builds and the tanker has more hp as usual but more resistance that seems odd to me pls help. and more def i thought that the devs didnt made it that the builds were even across the board.
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so what your telling me the villans side of this game is weaker when entering PVP i would lose every time. |
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
A brute only has 75% of the resistance and defense that a Tanker has.
If a power gives a tank 10% resist smashing/lethal, it gives the brute 7.5% resist. If a power gives a tank 5% defense, it gives the brute 3.75% defense. |
me thinks thats a bit unfair that the heros are over powered. but thanks for the help.
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No, Brutes are not as tough as Tankers but they deal quite a bit more damage (once they build Fury anyway). If Brutes were as tough as Tankers but dealt more damage it would be rather unbalanced |
Originally Posted by Gundam Ghost
so what your telling me the villans side of this game is weaker when entering PVP i would lose every time.
me thinks thats a bit unfair that the heros are over powered. but thanks for the help. |
.P.S. Devs hate villains
[QUOTE=Adeon Hawkwood;3411637]No, Brutes are not as tough as Tankers but they deal quite a bit more damage (once they build Fury anyway). If Brutes were as tough as Tankers but dealt more damage it would be rather unbalanced .
P.S. Devs hate villains[/Q
The Devs do hate Villans dont they but Fury is hard to build and hard to keep up so why even bother? and dont forget that the tanker also has more health.
From what I understand, Fury isn't hard to build and hard to maintain anymore.
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Says the person who clearly does not understand how to play a Brute at all. Fury is stupidly easy to generate, especially since the recent change in I18 (it was 18 right? I'm losing track of issues). But it still wasn't hard to generate before the change.
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Originally Posted by Gundam Ghost
The Devs do hate Villans dont they but Fury is hard to build and hard to keep up so why even bother?
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Apparently you dont pla alot of brutes your self. its not much of a differnce of fury build up and maintance from i18. ive been playing since 2006 on and off but play mostly brute and there has been only a slight change on the fury bar.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Says the person who clearly does not understand how to play a Brute at all. Fury is stupidly easy to generate, especially since the recent change in I18 (it was 18 right? I'm losing track of issues). But it still wasn't hard to generate before the change.
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There was a massive change on the fury bar. If you haven't noticed, you're clearly more off than on.
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Ok so your saying that if your playing a brute in pvp you can maintain its fury bar? if so please fill me in. |
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
There was a massive change on the fury bar. If you haven't noticed, you're clearly more off than on.
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So what is equivalent to a stalker on the hero side?
There are no direct equivalences for any archetypes.
So your saying that you really dont know anything about the game.
I call troll.
50s:
Grimmloch, Tactically Delicious, Ugly Frankie, Operative Tracker, CryoFurnace, Professional Help, Silver Sphinx, Aries Knight, Tachyon Aegis, Jade Sphinx
Currently building:
Any one of half a dozen alts!
Quote:
Blapper.
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Originally Posted by King_Amenhotep
So what is equivalent to a stalker on the hero side?
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They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
What i would love to see is the DEVS make every thing same across the board. If you didn't notice that everything is tailored towards the heros and i do mean EVERYTHING!if you say no then you must play the heros side more than the villans.
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nothing.|
Originally Posted by King_Amenhotep
So what is equivalent to a stalker on the hero side?
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The developers design for the melee archtypes works like this:
- Survivability
- Tankers
- Brutes
- Scrappers
- Stalkers
- Damage
Tankers are the most survivable with the highest base hit points, highest hit point, and stronger base defenses.
Brutes do more damage than tanks, but trade off for lower base hit points, a lower hit point cap, and lower base defenses, but have the same resistance cap.
Scrappers do more damage than brutes, but trade off for lower base hit points, a lower hit point cap, and lower resistance values.
Stalkers do more alpha strike damage than scrappers, but trade off base and cap hit points. There are some game mechanical problems with how stalkers are supposed to work: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=244076
Err, who plays a brute in competitive PVP anyways? I'm no CoX PVP expert but even I know that much. Then there's also the fact that PVP is such a small fraction of CoX, it can hardly be used as a valid basis of argument regarding any AT. The exception is of course, you're discussing specific PVP related issues that is not prevalent to PVE. The rule of thumb for most PVE heavy MMOs is that you don't balance classes/ATs around PVP. I have 9 level 50 brutes and I certainly do not plan their progression and build based on that tiny 1% of the game but rather the other 99%.
Back to the main point. In the vast, vast majority of PVE scenarios, fury was never all that hard to build. With the latest change, you can solo on +0/x2 paper/tip missions and still maintain 50-60% fury for the length of the mission after the initial 1 or 2 spawns. If you're in a group or soloing anything higher than +0/x4, you'll be hard pressed to not be running at 70-80% fury bar for most of the mission. Frankly, fury building is a not much of an issue unless the brute is so utterly overwhelmed after each spawn, he has to take a long break to rest and heal up. Even then all one has to do is lower the difficulty a smidge and it's back to being efficient once more.
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The devs hate villains thing is a joke. In any case, if you can't handle generating fury with your brutes I suggest making a Tanker and switching them to red side, problem solved.
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Originally Posted by Gundam Ghost
The Devs do hate Villans dont they but Fury is hard to build and hard to keep up so why even bother? and dont forget that the tanker also has more health.
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thank you you seem to know what your talking about. but what i would like to see is and even base across the A.T. the way it was when i7 was out. but i can only hope they can fix it soon.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
nothing.
The developers design for the melee archtypes works like this:
Brutes do more damage than tanks, but trade off for lower base hit points, a lower hit point cap, and lower base defenses, but have the same resistance cap. Scrappers do more damage than brutes, but trade off for lower base hit points, a lower hit point cap, and lower resistance values. Stalkers do more alpha strike damage than scrappers, but trade off base and cap hit points. There are some game mechanical problems with how stalkers are supposed to work: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=244076 |
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I'm not entirely sure I understand your question here...|
Originally Posted by Gundam Ghost
thank you you seem to know what your talking about. but what i would like to see is and even base across the A.T. the way it was when i7 was out. but i can only hope they can fix it soon.
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As far as I am aware, at no point in time have the Brute and Tank archtypes ever been equal in any of their base statistics. Brutes and Scrappers have always been around 30% lower per defensive power effect compared to the power effect on a Tank.
I think you are getting confused by the history of the game itself.
When City of Villains launched, Brutes had the same resistance and hit point caps as Tanks. The caps are the maximum value of a power effect that can be achieved. The intended game-play design was that on teams Brutes would gain larger amount of protections from Team-Mates, and thus would be able to full-fill the combat role of a Tank.
Something else to consider is that back when City of Villains launched the Villain side had access to two power-sets that boosted resistance values: Sonic Resonance and Thermal Radiation. From the developers point of view the inclusion of two resist armor sets in the Corrupter secondary power pool made reaching the hard-cap resist values on a Brute a more likely event that would occur.
* * *
The Hit Point cap was only changed in the recent Issue 18 update. The developers did this in conjunction with the new Bruising effect on tanks, and the change to the Fury Generation on Brutes. The developers have referred to these changes as having been done to balance the archtypes at the "extremes."
Tanker versus Brute
- Prior to Issue 18 in a full-team buff situation a Brute could generate the same amount of survivability compared to a tank, while generating significantly more damage.
- In the post Issue 18 full-team buff situation, a Brute is less survivable than Tank, while still delivering more damage.
- Prior to Issue 18 in a full-team buff situation a brute could generate as much damage as a scrapper while generating more survivability.
- In the post Issue 18 full-team buff situation a Brute does less damage than a scrapper, while still being able to generate more survivability.
* * *
Outside of the full team-buff situation, the changes have had some interesting low level / small effects.The tanker's new bruising effect enables tanks to knock 20% resistance off a target, thus speeding up a tank's ability to solo various hardened targets.
The brute's new fury enables brutes to reach and maintain 70~80% Fury even in small teams. This has the casual effect that Brutes, in small teams, can out-damage a scrapper. According to somebody else (I didn't do the math), a Brute needs around ~63% Fury in order to dish out the same damage as a scrapper.
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And not counting criticals. Including them, Scrappers still stay ahead of Brutes in damage depot.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
The brute's new fury enables brutes to reach and maintain 70~80% Fury even in small teams. This has the casual effect that Brutes, in small teams, can out-damage a scrapper. According to somebody else (I didn't do the math), a Brute needs around ~63% Fury in order to dish out the same damage as a scrapper.
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can someone pls tell me why a willpower tanker will have more resistance and a willpower burte? i went on mids and built both builds and the tanker has more hp as usual but more resistance that seems odd to me pls help. and more def i thought that the devs didnt made it that the builds were even across the board.