Ill/Storm AV soloing Questions


Draggynn

 

Posted

Hey guys. A while ago, I asked for help in designing a high-end ill/storm build, and I'm sitting at 45 with him. However, as I get closer and closer to 50, I'm seeing some potential problems. I wanted to use him as an AV soloer that wasn't an ill/rad or ill/cold, so that meant perma-PA and some high DPS.

My first problem deals with PA. With the original build, I had PA down to perma, but I wanted to see if I could save a ton of influence and make some recharge sacrifices. It went from ~59s to ~63s. In my mind, this isn't a huge problem, as I read somewhere that since PA dismisses in 1s time intervals, you really have closer to 62-63s of PA, and Phantasm summons a Decoy to take the heat in that time that you need to re-cast PA.

So in summary, my first question: Will not having PA closer to 60s hurt my goal of soloing AV's?

My second problem arises with the storm pets. I had planned to use PA, Phantasm, Tornado, and LS to make up for the lack of a -regen power that cold and rad both have. However, as I play more and more with my controller with LS and Tornado in my arsenal, the more I realize that /Storm is a MASSIVE end hog. Just using all of my debuffs and summoning all of my pets leaves me at or less than 50% on my blue bar.

My second question: If I'm soloing AV's, is it a good decision to plan to use LS and Tornado, since they use such a massive amount of endurance and I'm also going to be using the Blind -> SW -> Blast -> SW chain.

Here's the build I'm working with at the moment. I don't want to make any major build sacrifices in the name of soloing AV's. I still want it to be functional on a normal team, as that's where I play most often. If you guys notice anything in my build that could be re-arranged to give me a little more recharge without adding more purples into the mix, that would be wonderful. And just for reference, at the moment, I plan on taking the endurance (cardio?) Alpha once I ding 50.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
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Dr. Merriweather: Level 50 Natural Controller
Primary Power Set: Illusion Control
Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Ice Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Spectral Wounds -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(3), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Apoc-Dam%(5), Decim-Build%(36)
Level 1: Gale -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Blind -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(36), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(36), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(37), HO:Nucle(37), Dmg-I(37)
Level 4: Snow Storm -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(39)
Level 6: Deceive -- CoPers-Conf/Rchg(A), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(7), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(7), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(9), CoPers-Conf%(9)
Level 8: Superior Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 10: Steamy Mist -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(13), Krma-ResKB(13)
Level 12: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Fly -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 16: Freezing Rain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17), Achilles-ResDeb%(17), LdyGrey-%Dam(23), EndRdx-I(34)
Level 18: Phantom Army -- ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(19), ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(19), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(21), S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(21), S'bndAl-Build%(34)
Level 20: O2 Boost -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(39), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Dct'dW-Heal(40), Dct'dW-Rchg(40)
Level 22: Hurricane -- DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(23), DarkWD-ToHitDeb(25), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(25)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 26: Spectral Terror -- U'spkT-Acc/Rchg(A), U'spkT-EndRdx/Fear(27), U'spkT-Acc/EndRdx(27), U'spkT-Acc/Fear/Rchg(31), U'spkT-Fear/Rng(33)
Level 28: Thunder Clap -- Amaze-Stun(A), Amaze-Stun/Rchg(29), Amaze-Acc/Rchg(29), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun(31), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg(31)
Level 30: Group Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Phantasm -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(34), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(43), HO:Nucle(43)
Level 35: Tornado -- ExRmnt-Acc/Rchg(A), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg(45), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 38: Lightning Storm -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(46), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Ruin-Dmg/Rchg(48)
Level 41: Ice Blast -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(42), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 44: Hibernate -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Frost Breath -- TmpRdns-Acc/Slow(A), TmpRdns-Dmg/Slow(48), TmpRdns-Acc/EndRdx(50), TmpRdns-Rng/Slow(50), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(50)
Level 49: Frozen Armor -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(11), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(11), P'Shift-End%(15)



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezeWave View Post
So in summary, my first question: Will not having PA closer to 60s hurt my goal of soloing AV's?
Someone with experience in this area will need to answer, but I believe that it has now been shown to everyone's satisfaction that PA lasts 60 seconds including summoning and unsummoning time, not 63. How effectively Phantasm decoy can be used to fill a several second gap, I'm not certain about but it will certainly be easier the closer you are to 60 seconds (or even a little over). Fortunately you can get a little bit of extra recharge from your alpha boost: spiritual.

Quote:
My second question: If I'm soloing AV's, is it a good decision to plan to use LS and Tornado, since they use such a massive amount of endurance and I'm also going to be using the Blind -> SW -> Blast -> SW chain.
Yes, you will need Lightning Storm and Tornado. Although it may be doable without them (i would need to run the numbers), it would be significantly slower. Unfortunately yes, Storm is a massive endurance hog. You do have one helpful option now though: slot the cardiac alpha boost for the endurance reduction as you've already noted which should help a lot. More importantly though, I would recommend switching to the primal forces pool so that you can use conserve power to get yourself some extra endurance. Hibernate is not going to be an efficient way to get endurance back during a fight. My storm defender cycles between conserve power and force of nature (not the best option, but it works) in order to keep up enough endurance to take down Archvillains solo. I haven't done any soloing since i19 to see if I can drop force of nature with the cardiac. Of course depending on what your goal is, the Gaes accolade can also provide with you with a minute of extra endurance.


Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here

 

Posted

The problem you will have is that any gap often results in the AV deciding that you look like a good target rather than PA. Even at 60 seconds Recharge, this happens. At 63 seconds Recharge, you will have a lot more gaps when the AV will turn his or her attention to you.

Sadly, to get Perma-PA on an Ill/Storm, you will need some purple sets.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

 

Posted

I"ll share my experience with Storm and AVs.

Once upon a time I was running Maria's arc with 7 other people. I was the only source of debuff on the team.

To make a long story short, it wasn't until someone brought their Radiation Emission alt that we were able to defeat the AV.

My Storm defender had all the IO bonuses needed for perm Hasten, Achilles yadda yadda yadda.

I may be wrong but the most important debuff to have during a GM or AV fight is -regen.

Since you don't get -regen with Storm I don't see how one can solo an AV with Storm when a team of 8 weren't able to take Chimera down with Storm as the sole debuffer.

I'm sure I'm wrong about this anyway.


 

Posted

There will be a problem with that gap in recharge for PA. From my experience as an Ill/Rad before I got true perma PA, (which thankfully wasnt that long of a time period), is that you cannot count on the decoy to fill in the gap for you. Due to some bugs with the way phantasm works lately you just can't rely on him to do the right thing. One tactic that might help a little bit is to use the terrain to your advantage. If you see PA fading you can queue up you new PA and get behind some line of sight blocking terrain. It may buy you a second or two while the AV chases you down to get line of sight (gotta do this before the PA drops cuz otherwise it won't save you) and hopefully it'll resummon in time. It's also important to note that even tho PA will summon, it doesnt automatically get aggro back. There is a very brief moment that seems like an eternity against certain AVs where they are just standing there and not attacking. You're fine as soon as they attack but you may take a hit or two before the taunt kicks in. Basicly what I'm getting at is that the few seconds of downtime in an AV/GM fight could be disastrous depending on the situation, especially if you dont have a self heal to deal with the incoming damage (and even then on a squishie a self heal may not be enough).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by milehigh77 View Post
I"ll share my experience with Storm and AVs.

Once upon a time I was running Maria's arc with 7 other people. I was the only source of debuff on the team.

To make a long story short, it wasn't until someone brought their Radiation Emission alt that we were able to defeat the AV.

My Storm defender had all the IO bonuses needed for perm Hasten, Achilles yadda yadda yadda.

I may be wrong but the most important debuff to have during a GM or AV fight is -regen.

Since you don't get -regen with Storm I don't see how one can solo an AV with Storm when a team of 8 weren't able to take Chimera down with Storm as the sole debuffer.

I'm sure I'm wrong about this anyway.
No idea why you had issues with AV's.
I've taken down a number of AV's with my Ill/Storm on small teams when I was the sole debuffer/support - that AT is on standard IO's.
Although Storm has no -regen Tornado and Lightning Storm make up for some of that, add in Freezing Rain and the AV should go down relatively quickly.


L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR

Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by milehigh77 View Post
Since you don't get -regen with Storm I don't see how one can solo an AV with Storm when a team of 8 weren't able to take Chimera down with Storm as the sole debuffer.

I'm sure I'm wrong about this anyway.
My storm/psy defender can solo AVs fine, so I imagine with the additional damage from phantasm and phantom army multiplied by the Freezing Rain debuff you shouldn't have any trouble at all. It's a high end build, but that build is mostly defense for survival, so in terms of what it contributes debuffing and damage wise it shouldn't be too far off from what you can achieve. The biggest problem my Storm/Psy defender has is that relying purely on defense for survival a couple lucky shots can make him go squish (or AVs with too many ranged attacks). But damage is only a problem against foes with high psy resist. I have no idea why you were having so much trouble on your team with Chimera.


Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here

 

Posted

Ah ty Psi & Drag.

I must have been mistaken.

I"ll have to take my Storm defender out for a stroll in the near future


 

Posted

According to Mids, you're only picking up 5 secs on Hasten with that third slot, and without it Hasten would only be down about 3.7 sec. Might consider using that slot elsewhere.

You might consider trading either Hibernate or Frozen Armor for Ice Storm, as it deals lots of damage. If you steal the slots from Spectral Terror, which really doesn't need it, you could slot it with 5 Ragnarok. You'd lose 5% recharge from what you currently have in Spectral Terror, but gain 10% recharge for Rag, for a net gain of 5%, plus a power that deals a lot of damage over a wide area.

I like adding a third damage proc in Freezing Rain - either Positron Blast Chance for Energy Dam or Impeded Swiftness Chance for Smash Dam. It turns FR into a pretty effective AoE power cause something almost always hits. In fact, I have FR, Frost Breath, and Ice storm all 6 slotted, with as many damage procs as I can squeeze in them.

I've played with Mids for hours and I've never quite been able to get a perm PA build, even with 5 purple sets with their 10% bonuses and 5 LOTGs, but I can get within about 2 seconds. I usually just run an hide or fly up really high if outdoors, and wait for PA to recharge. Depends on if Phantasm is cooperating.

I have a Force Feedback Chance for Recharge in Gale. Because of all my high level sets, I have a global +63% accuracy, so I don't miss slotting gale with Acc. If you hit once per minute with it, that 5 sec +100% recharge boost is like another 8.3% gain in recharge per 60s which I think would get 62s PA down pretty darn close to 60s.

I can say that I rarely had endurance problems with my build pre-Incarnate, and now with Cardiac Boost, I never have them. The toggles I usually have running are: SupInv, Hover, SS, Maneuvers, Assault, and Snowstorm. No Hurricane currently. I also always have 2 Lightnings and 2 Tornados out as well, and FR every 17.4 secs. My current PA is at about 65s.

Here is my goal build which has PA at 61.89s, but I haven't tested it for endurance yet. The difference in this and my current build is that my LOTG toggles all have Def/End slots as well as the +7.5%'s, which admittedly does add up. (They also give me 5x10% regen bonus which is really nice. I will hate to lose them when I respec!)

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Posted

For their cast times, Tornado and Lightning Storm add an incredible amount of damage. They're staples in a /Storm AV soloing build (though I'm still a little bitter about Lightning Storm no longer firing faster via inherited Recharge Buffs...that was fun!)

I'll note, however, that Illusion doesn't have access to an Immobilize, so Tornado might reduce your damage output if the AV goes a-running too often.


Still, assuming that Lightning Storm and Tornado waste no time in shooting at your AV:

Tornado casts in 1.17 seconds, causing 60 ticks of 6.67 smashing damage (before buffs, debuffs, enhancements and resistance). That's 342 points of damage per second of cast time. If you're spamming powers, this is one of the best damage/cast time powers you're going to get your hands on. With two freezing rain debuffs going at once for a -60% resistance debuff, and slotting for +95% damage, you can expect to inflict 1248.6 points of damage with each casting, total, provided that the AV doesn't escape the damage aura of the Tornado. For 1.17 seconds of casting, forget about the End cost. Just spam it.

Lightning Storm casts in 2.03 seconds, and fires 12 blasts of lightning for 40.04 energy damage (again, before buffs, debuffs, enhancements and resistance). That's 236.7 points of damage per second of cast time. With the same enhancement assumptions as Tornado, above, you can expect a single casting of Lightning Storm to inflict 1499.1 points of damage, total.

Spectral Wounds, even with its fast cast time, won't keep up with that sort of damage/cast time.


 

Posted

I will chip in with my ill/storm perma PA av soloing build. It may give you some ideas on how to deal with the problems you are having...

If you want to see a demo of AV soloing, feel free to send me a message and we can arrange a time to meet up on Freedom or test.

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Posted

I think if you take into account picking up the incarnate alpha slot, you should be able to cover which area your short in. I picked up the tier 2 endurance for a AR Dev Blaster I was working on.

It literally made an extremely unbearable build, extremely playable now.

My suggestion..

Go to this link http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=187775&page=3

Look at my build for endurance reasons and compare your build to mine in that sense. For example If LS cost 100 end to use and last 1 minute and I can fire Full Auto that cost 50 end and I can use it every 32 seconds.. It pretty much is on par with LS end use.

So if you can find comparable endurance usage between the builds then you know Cardiac Alpha will help you out.

As I mentioned I was so annoyed that I was going to have to respec the toon because I just had no endurance.. Now I am looking to respec because I have too much endurance.. I don't even know that line makes sense..


1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korith View Post
For their cast times, Tornado and Lightning Storm add an incredible amount of damage. They're staples in a /Storm AV soloing build (though I'm still a little bitter about Lightning Storm no longer firing faster via inherited Recharge Buffs...that was fun!)

I'll note, however, that Illusion doesn't have access to an Immobilize, so Tornado might reduce your damage output if the AV goes a-running too often.


Still, assuming that Lightning Storm and Tornado waste no time in shooting at your AV:

Tornado casts in 1.17 seconds, causing 60 ticks of 6.67 smashing damage (before buffs, debuffs, enhancements and resistance). That's 342 points of damage per second of cast time. If you're spamming powers, this is one of the best damage/cast time powers you're going to get your hands on. With two freezing rain debuffs going at once for a -60% resistance debuff, and slotting for +95% damage, you can expect to inflict 1248.6 points of damage with each casting, total, provided that the AV doesn't escape the damage aura of the Tornado. For 1.17 seconds of casting, forget about the End cost. Just spam it.

Lightning Storm casts in 2.03 seconds, and fires 12 blasts of lightning for 40.04 energy damage (again, before buffs, debuffs, enhancements and resistance). That's 236.7 points of damage per second of cast time. With the same enhancement assumptions as Tornado, above, you can expect a single casting of Lightning Storm to inflict 1499.1 points of damage, total.

Spectral Wounds, even with its fast cast time, won't keep up with that sort of damage/cast time.
I love both Lightning Storm and Tornado -- they do awesome amounts of damage and chaos. But the numbers you stated above should really take into account, when you are talking about AVs, the fact that Tornado and Lightning Storm do their damage over a fair amount of time and the AV's Regen offsets that damage to some degree. Damage per cast time will be substantially different than Damage per second or Damage per endurance, especially if you include the AV's Regen. I think it is important to keep that in mind since Storm does not have a -Regen power. In effect, the Damage over Time from Tornado probably compares to the -Regen in other sets.

Spectral Wounds is an even more difficult damage power to evaluate because of the large amount of up-front damage, some of which heals back in a few seconds . . . unless you can defeat the foe before the heal-back, in which case you keep the damage.

While I'm sure Arcanaville can come up with a great statistical analysis, there are a lot of variables that can affect the amount of damage being done. While Storm's last two powers are great, they are not quite as good as those numbers would seem to indicate.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Local_Man View Post
I love both Lightning Storm and Tornado -- they do awesome amounts of damage and chaos. But the numbers you stated above should really take into account, when you are talking about AVs, the fact that Tornado and Lightning Storm do their damage over a fair amount of time and the AV's Regen offsets that damage to some degree. Damage per cast time will be substantially different than Damage per second or Damage per endurance, especially if you include the AV's Regen. I think it is important to keep that in mind since Storm does not have a -Regen power. In effect, the Damage over Time from Tornado probably compares to the -Regen in other sets.

Spectral Wounds is an even more difficult damage power to evaluate because of the large amount of up-front damage, some of which heals back in a few seconds . . . unless you can defeat the foe before the heal-back, in which case you keep the damage.

While I'm sure Arcanaville can come up with a great statistical analysis, there are a lot of variables that can affect the amount of damage being done. While Storm's last two powers are great, they are not quite as good as those numbers would seem to indicate.
You're also going to have a hell of a time double-stacking Freezing Rain given the long-standing bug (feature?) with its duration. Solo EB/AV fights probably describe the only situation where you can count Tornado/LS as straight DPS as Korith did, and even there it seems he overrated their appeal.

Storm can work for an AV-soloing Controller. If I were determined to make such a character, though, I'd have to go with Cold instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Local_Man View Post
I love both Lightning Storm and Tornado -- they do awesome amounts of damage and chaos. But the numbers you stated above should really take into account, when you are talking about AVs, the fact that Tornado and Lightning Storm do their damage over a fair amount of time and the AV's Regen offsets that damage to some degree. Damage per cast time will be substantially different than Damage per second or Damage per endurance, especially if you include the AV's Regen. I think it is important to keep that in mind since Storm does not have a -Regen power. In effect, the Damage over Time from Tornado probably compares to the -Regen in other sets.
Although relevant in the short term calculations of damage dealt, in the long term (as in over the course of the whole fight) the AV regen doesn't really matter, in terms of damage over time vs. spike except at the end of the fight (since you're looking for short term damage spike).

Completely made up numbers not intended to have any relation to actual AVs or powers in the game:

Suppose AVs regen 5 Hp/second and has 100 HP.
Suppose Tornado deals 10 damage per second.
Suppose attack A deals 50 damage and recharges in 5 seconds and has 0 activation time.

We'll compare the two attack plans:
A: Cast Tornado at time 1
B: use attack A whenever it's recharged

Looking at the AV HPs (values at the end of a given one second interval.
At time 0, A: 100 B: 100
At time 1, A: 95 B: 55
At time 2, A: 90 B: 60
At time 3, A 85 B: 65
At time 4, A: 80 B: 70
***At time 5, A: 75 B: 75*** damage dealt is the same
At time 6, A: 70 B: 30
At time 7, A: 65 B: 35
At time 8, A: 60 B: 40
At time 9, A: 55 B: 45
***At time 10, A: 50 B: 50*** damage dealt is the same
At time 11, A: 45 B: 0

So until you reach the end of the fight (which will take a while when fighting AVs) there is no disadvantage to dealing your damage over time as opposed to all at once. Clearly there is an advantage in the short term, but ultimately the total damage inflicted comes down to:
Damage_Dealt - AV_Regen*Time

so how that damage is dealt is independent of time, whether it was 100 damage all at once or 100 damage dealt over the entire interval being examined.

Obviously if the AV is running tornado will miss occasionally, this example is only meant to show damage over time, vs. spike with AV regen.


Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
You're also going to have a hell of a time double-stacking Freezing Rain given the long-standing bug (feature?) with its duration.
As of last report from Castle, this was still a recognized bug they just didn't have a way to fix it...I suppose I should check with the new power devs and see what their view on the issue is. Also, even with the bug you should be able to stack FR about 60% of the time.


Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draggynn View Post
As of last report from Castle, this was still a recognized bug they just didn't have a way to fix it...I suppose I should check with the new power devs and see what their view on the issue is. Also, even with the bug you should be able to stack FR about 60% of the time.
Where are you getting that number? Do you have testing to suggest that the bug only applies 40% of the time? I know it doesn't happen every time, but I've not seen any conclusive data on the matter.

But even if we accept that you can pin down the exact rate that the bug will occur, you still have to contend with the power's cooldown and activation time. At the recharge cap, you can get FR to recharge in 15 seconds, which is exactly half of the debuff's on-paper duration. But you also have a 2.244 second activation period (including Arcanatime), which means that you can only cycle the power every 17.244 seconds.

2.244 / 15 = 0.1496, or approximately 15% of your up-time is therefore consumed by the cast. In short, you couldn't perma-double-stack Freezing Rain even if the bug didn't exist.

In order for us to achieve 60% up-time on double FR given the above, we'd have to get non-buggy behavior out of FR's debuff ~70% of the time. That seems like a rather optimistic number to me based on experience, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong on that point.

Regardless, assuming perma-double-stacked FR is over-optimistic, just as calculating Tornado and LS's DPA in a vacuum is potentially misleading. The comparison between those two powers and regen debuffs is apt, because they're subject to a similar set of situational caveats that set them apart from straight DPS powers. Those caveats are particularly relevant for any character who doesn't have an anti-knockback immobilize.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
Where are you getting that number? Do you have testing to suggest that the bug only applies 40% of the time? I know it doesn't happen every time, but I've not seen any conclusive data on the matter.
It's rather a pain to get conclusive data since the bug appears to be related to synchronization with the server clock, so the only way to test is to monitor attributes since there's no message to let you know whether the bug is active or not. I performed very extensive testing with Freezing Rain as part of writing my Storm Guide and I was quoting from memory, going back and looking at the guide it looks like my testing showed that the bug was active about 65% of the time, so perhaps my number for 60% was high.

However, if an AV leaves Freezing rain then you get the whole 30 seconds of debuff following their exit from the patch and as AVs are likely to move (I guess soloing AVs with an ill troller maybe they tend to be more stationary due to PA. I usually have to go chasing them on my defender though) I decided to give a slightly higher number based on that assumption. That's one interesting result of the bug is that enemies fleeing FR is actually a benefit.

And I realize my verbage was unclear. I wasn't intending to say that you could have FR stacked 60% of the time, but rather that 60% of the time when you meant to stack FR you would succeed. My guide includes a solid break down of what is achievable (for defenders at least) with FR for various recharge levels if there were in fact no bug.


Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draggynn View Post
It's rather a pain to get conclusive data since the bug appears to be related to synchronization with the server clock, so the only way to test is to monitor attributes since there's no message to let you know whether the bug is active or not. I performed very extensive testing with Freezing Rain as part of writing my Storm Guide and I was quoting from memory, going back and looking at the guide it looks like my testing showed that the bug was active about 65% of the time, so perhaps my number for 60% was high.
Sounds interesting, I'll be sure to check it out.

Quote:
However, if an AV leaves Freezing rain then you get the whole 30 seconds of debuff following their exit from the patch and as AVs are likely to move (I guess soloing AVs with an ill troller maybe they tend to be more stationary due to PA. I usually have to go chasing them on my defender though) I decided to give a slightly higher number based on that assumption. That's one interesting result of the bug is that enemies fleeing FR is actually a benefit.
That's true, but you're also describing why Tornado and LS can't (or usually shouldn't) be counted as straight DPS. The fact that running targets give you a backhanded benefit by minimizing the bug with FR doesn't offset the fact that you're losing some amount of your damage potential via your pseudo pets.

Either way, you're losing something. Or gaining something, depending on you look at it -- but by Korith's reckoning, we're losing, and losing a lot, given that he assumed full-time double-stacked FR and the full potential DPS of the Storm pseudo pets.

All of that said, I did make an error in my previous post with respect to the recharge cap. The recharge cap is +400% (500% total), rather than the total of 400% I groggily referred to earlier. So in theory you could stack FR full-time if there were no bug, but it's nearly impossible to get to that point on your own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build