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I recently came back from a long break, and I found out that this game can actually be pretty enjoyable if you simply pretend that PvP doesn't exist in it. You know, the same thing the devs have been doing for about 2 years. Just forget PvP even exists in the game and play it like a pure PvE game, the way they intended it. Then you can actually enjoy it...at least until the PvE gets boring.
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Originally Posted by __Divine__
This game is retarded..... But other then that this game is dead from a pvp perspective....time to find a new game ladies.
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As stated before, he's passed it off to Synapse, Black Scorpion, and to a certain degree Positron. |
Originally Posted by LuxunS
This could be the perfect time to try to get some attention. Whoever is replacing him might want to jump in and take on something that's been neglected for a while.
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When the lead designer posts in Castle's goodbye thread and basically says "Yeah see ya Floyd, now I gotta figure out these power spreadsheets cause I haven't the ******* clue what's going on", that doesn't sit well with me.
Point is, Castle was the one to botch PvP and was probably the only one to un botch it.
I tend to disagree. In 2 years he has never admitted his changes were not good, no matter what kind of hard facts were tossed at him. Chances were he would never admit it if for no other reason but pride.
Not that I have any high hopes for positive change but I do believe its more likely for the dude with no pride about the screw up changing it than the guy who would have to admit he was wrong doing it now over 2 years later.
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Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
As stated before, he's passed it off to Synapse, Black Scorpion, and to a certain degree Positron.
When the lead designer posts in Castle's goodbye thread and basically says "Yeah see ya Floyd, now I gotta figure out these power spreadsheets cause I haven't the ******* clue what's going on", that doesn't sit well with me. Point is, Castle was the one to botch PvP and was probably the only one to un botch it. |
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I heard it went something like this |
Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
As stated before, he's passed it off to Synapse, Black Scorpion, and to a certain degree Positron.
When the lead designer posts in Castle's goodbye thread and basically says "Yeah see ya Floyd, now I gotta figure out these power spreadsheets cause I haven't the ******* clue what's going on", that doesn't sit well with me. Point is, Castle was the one to botch PvP and was probably the only one to un botch it. |
"Hey Floyd our data mining shows 30% of active pvpers have fly.."
"My work here is done! Goodbye everyone!"
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lol people say **** like that and then wonder why people don't come back? having a league on one server and a 8v8v8 kickball on another server at the same time isn't dead it's not what it was in i13 but it's not dead so plz quit the game in peace..
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
Was it ever not post i13?
Where did you go Divine? Since Treyy and Hot left folks on freedom have lifted the ban on me in KB matches. d;P |
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Not really. Castle was pretty much the brains behind coding the new changes. If anyone has any idea how the code works it would be him. It would be a daunting task to tackle fixing pvp when one isn't as familiar with the code as the former "Powers guy". And I highly doubt the dude documented a lot of how the code in PvP works. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely, very unlikely. The code is complex and if you're not familiar with it, why would you even bother trying to comprehend it when the rest of the dev team and marketting are only concerned with satisfying the rest of the player base. The player base that gives them more money than the small pvp population. |
Originally Posted by CriticalKat
I tend to disagree. In 2 years he has never admitted his changes were not good, no matter what kind of hard facts were tossed at him. Chances were he would never admit it if for no other reason but pride.
Not that I have any high hopes for positive change but I do believe its more likely for the dude with no pride about the screw up changing it than the guy who would have to admit he was wrong doing it now over 2 years later. |
Any chance of pvp getting fixed just walked out of Paragon Studios with our rather large comic book guy powers dude.
And do you really think he'd admit that his changers were horribad? Really Kat? Really?
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So, why are you angry with Mac?
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Originally Posted by Vexington
How's it not? Coming in late and *actually* being irrelevant is pretty funny. >.>
Obviously, any argument would be baseless. There were plenty with actual input based on experience at the appropriate time. They were ignored. Anything after that was even more meaningless and futile. |
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Mac's bad?
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
So, why are you angry with Mac?
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PvP isn't broken... there is nothing to fix.|
Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
Any chance of pvp getting fixed just walked out of Paragon Studios with our rather large comic book guy powers dude.
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What we've had here for two years is a bunch of people wanting things to be their way, and refusing to play things the way it was re-designed.
It only seems broken to many because many... naturally, we want to take the easiest path to victory possible, and when eveything requires more skill and effort... with the exception of spamming damage... you end up with a bunch of damage spammers with lots of HP and the illusion of skill looking around and calling the system broken.
As a veteran PvP'er... it's embarassing.
Imagine what the devs would think of the PvE playerbase if took them 3 years to figure out how to successfully complete a MS raid or take down Hamidon. If PvE'ers spent two years fighting, begging, whining to the devs to Fix MS raids and Hammi...
The devs cannot change the current PvP system because the current system has not been fully tested or explored... and it's been over two years!
Do any of you know what defense numbers a /SR can get to with 6 sets of Bubbles?
What kind of slows could an ice team comprised of Ice/ and /Ice Blasters, Tanks, Defs, Trollers, Doms, and Corrs produce?
When recall friend can act as a 8 second "Do whatever and click this when it's time to escape" power... why aren't there any Blasters/Trollers brave enough to coordinate nukes and AoEs... Too hard?? So we say AoEs are useless, right?
It's whatever... so many will continue looking at there toons feeling like they had no choce, when we've had one all along... and we were told very simply what to aim for but ignored such suggestions from the people that make the game.
The only thing broken is the way we look at PvP in this game.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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Not sure but it would take calculus and too much effort and even then how is it anything but a party trick? |
Originally Posted by Dahjee
blablablabla
Do any of you know what defense numbers a /SR can get to with 6 sets of Bubbles? |
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| What kind of slows could an ice team comprised of Ice/ and /Ice Blasters, Tanks, Defs, Trollers, Doms, and Corrs produce? |
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| When recall friend can act as a 8 second "Do whatever and click this when it's time to escape" power... why aren't there any Blasters/Trollers brave enough to coordinate nukes and AoEs... Too hard?? So we say AoEs are useless, right? |
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Originally Posted by Dahjee
The devs cannot change the current PvP system because the current system has not been fully tested or explored... and it's been over two years!
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Originally Posted by Dahjee
Do any of you know what defense numbers a /SR can get to with 6 sets of Bubbles?
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Using your example: It's highly subjective based on slotting because the system is so complex. Taking an SR at the soft-cap for defenses and 6 FF controllers slotted shields with 3x lotgs (it puts the shields at +17% defenses). In PvE the SR would sit around 147% defenses. In PvP it would be in the area of 48%.
48%. Bet you weren't expecting that.
Besides, while that 48% defense scrapper is running around having a slightly hard time being hit, his teammates are being farmed. DR hits squishies much harder defensively. They'd be farmed and the SR wouldn't be that much better off.
I apologize if this post seems harsh, but you constantly insult veteran PvPers. Many of the players you accuse of thinking one dimensional are far better players then you or me. They don't play those builds simply to be closed-minded, they play those builds because they work.
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I understand things well enough. I admit though I do not stress the numbers as much as some who understand things better. Seems more productive to spend time getting the most out it than to waste time playing dev and suggestting tweaks here and there. Also, the points I make have less to do with in game as it does with how we represent it here on the boards. |
Originally Posted by LuxunS
Actually, yes. Just because you do not understand the math behind the system, doesn't mean that there are not people here that do. Your ideas about what could be good in pvp are not groundbreaking or ingenious, they are bad.
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Originally Posted by LuxunS
Using your example: It's highly subjective based on slotting because the system is so complex. Taking an SR at the soft-cap for defenses and 6 FF controllers slotted shields with 3x lotgs (it puts the shields at +17% defenses). In PvE the SR would sit around 147% defenses. In PvP it would be in the area of 48%.
48%. Bet you weren't expecting that. |
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Originally Posted by LuxunS
Besides, while that 48% defense scrapper is running around having a slightly hard time being hit, his teammates are being farmed. DR hits squishies much harder defensively. They'd be farmed and the SR wouldn't be that much better off.
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Overall my point was that things like this aren't being played with... so there becomes little to base the whining on.
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Originally Posted by LuxunS
I apologize if this post seems harsh, but you constantly insult veteran PvPers. Many of the players you accuse of thinking one dimensional are far better players then you or me. They don't play those builds simply to be closed-minded, they play those builds because they work.
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"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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Originally Posted by Dahjee
The only thing broken is my idiotic logic.
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Cool story bro.
I don't think Vex is mad at anyone. Mac and Con certainly did spearhead one of the later forum crusades - no one is debating that - and it has nothing to do with them being good/bad.
As for community building on the other hand - there was a hand full of people who did everything they could to establish a new PvP community in preparation for a potential league (eventually the freedom league). Without any one of those people, the league probably wouldn't have existed. Vex comes to mind as one of those people.
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Try it and get back to me. I don't know... you don't know. That's my point. Sure the numbers say this and that... and too often such is enough to turn our assumptions into fact without actually experienceing the full picture.|
Originally Posted by Terror1
Not sure but it would take calculus and too much effort and even then how is it anything but a party trick?
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Originally Posted by Terror1
And would probably get shitted on by more offensive oriented lineups.
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Originally Posted by Terror1
Aoes work. On mm pets.
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"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
post i13 is broken - period. Others have said it before - I will say it again - if such a success and not breaking whole ats and power sets - why is it we do not have HD/TS/DR in pve? Simple because pver's would lose de f.n. minds if they had to deal with it. The basic principle of Castle screwing pvp was to make it easier for pvers to pvp....Yeah that worked. Most of the people who pvp'ed left, none of these new pvers filled the void...and here is you "if I can get 8 /ice blasters to shiver you...oh boy look out.."
Ever go to RV? I only go in if I can team with people i know. 90% of the people in there think spike was a character on buffy the vampire slayer and fort is a cool place you make out of sheets. Most of the time it is people crying about KM and can't wait for it to get nerfed, or stalkers and sharks or just constant base camping.
The only viable pvp is going on in arenas (champ league, freedom league etc) you know why? No heal decay, no Travel supression...hmm...
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So it seems I came back and nothing has changed for pvp. Great...|
Originally Posted by B_Witched
post i13 is broken - period. Others have said it before - I will say it again - if such a success and not breaking whole ats and power sets - why is it we do not have HD/TS/DR in pve? Simple because pver's would lose de f.n. minds if they had to deal with it. The basic principle of Castle screwing pvp was to make it easier for pvers to pvp....Yeah that worked. Most of the people who pvp'ed left, none of these new pvers filled the void...and here is you "if I can get 8 /ice blasters to shiver you...oh boy look out.."
Ever go to RV? I only go in if I can team with people i know. 90% of the people in there think spike was a character on buffy the vampire slayer and fort is a cool place you make out of sheets. Most of the time it is people crying about KM and can't wait for it to get nerfed, or stalkers and sharks or just constant base camping. The only viable pvp is going on in arenas (champ league, freedom league etc) you know why? No heal decay, no Travel supression...hmm... |
Is inherent fitness at least nice?
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Not sure why I'm bothering, but you're flat out wrong. How many PvP teams have you been on? Zero? That's right.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Overall my point was that things like this aren't being played with... so there becomes little to base the whining on.
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You have absolutely no idea what PvP'ers do and what they don't do. I can absolutely guarantee that any idea you may have HAS been thought of and most likely even tested in the past. Yes, people have used 6 bubblers to see what defense they would have. Yes, people have built teams around slows. Yes, people have used recall friend semi-successfully.
In the end, those things were proven to be ineffective, or at least not as effective as other things. What is most effective is what's currently being used. Please stop acting like you're the only one that understands the game.
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Defense and slow based teams get wrecked by coordinated damage spikes. While those targets are down others are getting hit with less available support and those that died need to be rebuffed. Once the first kill hits the rest is a rinse and repeat downhill raepfest. The same thing goes for most teams that revolve around a single purpose/function. We know this because we've tested it.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Try it and get back to me. I don't know... you don't know. That's my point. Sure the numbers say this and that... and too often such is enough to turn our assumptions into fact without actually experienceing the full picture.
Here, the point you missed was that slows are possibly most effective when they are concentrated and/or coordinated from different players/sets. Nothing else was really implied. Sad. So very Sad indeed. |
You assume we don't know. I don't know why, but you do. Your hypotheticals are off base. Thinking outside the box is something we do. That's why there's teams built around obnoxious TA's flooring people and gravs wormhole'ing targets and some interesting and potentially hilarious turtle teams. It's not all 5 psi/em jump teams, but they are effective. And the ones that figured out that the delayed damage mini spike offered by psi blast made for an excellent spike were those that are making these other teams. Not you or those like you that stand on their pedestal and cry to the masses that you're the only ones that understand.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
true story: I was the first psy/em in Awesome Avengers
also true story: Awesome Avengers didn't really win many matches because they were stuck with me as the main blaster.
final true story: hank and shad would never let me run my ff/elec even though it was my favorite toon.
More true stories: I was offered a spot on Whirligig, but declined when I found out they didn't run all WS teams.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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So... let me get this straight....|
Originally Posted by B_Witched
The only viable pvp is going on in arenas (champ league, freedom league etc) you know why? No heal decay, no Travel supression...hmm...
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The only viable PvP is the kind where you remove npcs, take away temp powers, make sure the odds are even, control the use of insps, change the settings of standard PvP to allow for heal spamming, turn off travel suppression, and more often than not... fight on an enclosed map?
Really? How long have you been playing that same way B Witched? A year now? Since I13? Since your initial programming? Sad.
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Originally Posted by Supermax
You have absolutely no idea what PvP'ers do and what they don't do. I can absolutely guarantee that any idea you may have HAS been thought of and most likely even tested in the past. Yes, people have used 6 bubblers to see what defense they would have. Yes, people have built teams around slows. Yes, people have used recall friend semi-successfully.
In the end, those things were proven to be ineffective, or at least not as effective as other things. What is most effective is what's currently being used. Please stop acting like you're the only one that understands the game. |
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Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
Defense and slow based teams get wrecked by coordinated damage spikes. While those targets are down others are getting hit with less available support and those that died need to be rebuffed. Once the first kill hits the rest is a rinse and repeat downhill raepfest. The same thing goes for most teams that revolve around a single purpose/function. We know this because we've tested it.
You assume we don't know. I don't know why, but you do. Your hypotheticals are off base. Thinking outside the box is something we do. That's why there's teams built around obnoxious TA's flooring people and gravs wormhole'ing targets and some interesting and potentially hilarious turtle teams. It's not all 5 psi/em jump teams, but they are effective. And the ones that figured out that the delayed damage mini spike offered by psi blast made for an excellent spike were those that are making these other teams. Not you or those like you that stand on their pedestal and cry to the masses that you're the only ones that understand. |
You toss around words like "proven" and "tested" where they do not apply... and while this would normally make me laugh... I cry a little on the inside because I know you believe the things you've been told to be absolutely true. What's sadder, is that you base all these tests off the same controlled settings, done in the past, secretly I suppose because the feedback never makes it to the boards to be discussed. I'm guessing you can only recall of maybe one time, or this one team who tried this or that... and their failure to be effective in your eyes was enough beleive that no other team or persons could make it work.
You still cannot escape the idea of effectiveness outside of a 10 min arena win match. Neither of you could even seperate "Effective Slows" from an "Effective 8 v 8 line-up." Neither seem to be able to grasp the notion that effectiveness varies depending on a number of things, and the effectiveness you cling to is the result of clinging to the same damn way of doing things. It's whatever though. I know what I'm dealing with here... I have no desire to changed a fixed opinion. My desire is to open up the discussion... Slowly things have improved here on the boards, but still much to do. I do not know where either of you have heard me say that "I am the ONLY one who understands" so I would appreciate it if you got off of that. Pointing out that others have misunderstood is not the same thing.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
As a side note, when Vex isn't calling people bad, he's helpful. Not so much on the boards, but he spent a lot of time working with the less experienced players during the league last year. He's really a softie.