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To be fair, my sister's pretty hot.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
If I didn't refuse to change my sig because I have a grandfathered one too big to be allowed on the new forum, this would so be my new sig.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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WRONG!|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Aieee poorly worded
 The answer back is: sort of. They both protect you from the same *AMOUNT* of damage. |
Sorry but WRONG!
Regen does NOT "protect" you from damage. It allows you to "grow it back" IF you survive the incoming damage. While it's a form of damage "mitigation", it's NOT "protection".
Resistance protects you from damage. Outside of resistance debuffs, it always consistently reduces damage by a set amount.
Defense protects you from damage. Outside of defense debuffs, it always provides a specific difficulty to hit for your enemies to overcome. Now it's NOT perfect (ask any SR scrapper or Ice tank). Defense is an "all or nothing" form of protection. If they hit, they hit. You take damage, period. And it's entirely possible for a series of "lucky shots" to floor you. Or, in the case of stacking defense debuffs, cause cascading defense failure.
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Soft-capped SR is certainly not weak, but I think people forget that cascade failure was just *one* of the SR weaknesses that were on my list of problematic situations. DDR virtually eliminates that one, but the others are still around, and while they aren't nearly as bad, they do significantly soften the strength of a soft-cap focused build. Autohitting damage and debuffs in particular are a double nasty because they can run right through soft capped defenses and make aid self problematic to use. And it seems the devs have started ratcheting up the tohit buffs in the last couple years, which is probably a reaction to so much defense buffs existing in the invention system.|
Originally Posted by Werner
For "Regen", you add either Siphon Life or Aid Self. For resistance, you stack Tough with the scaling resistances. Not much, you say?
I think people underestimate just how much mitigation the scaling damage resistance can provide. I was doing survivability tests at different levels of defense on my DM/SR about a week ago, and I could hang out with frequent blinking red with an average of maybe 40% resistance for ten minutes or more and the spawn might never put me down. They weren't smashing/lethal, but if they were, add Tough on top of that. You may not see that much resistance very often, but you may also find your Super Reflexes ridiculously hard to kill in normal spawns even if you THINK you're about to go down. For that matter, it sometimes works out that way in really nasty spawns. That's pretty much what happened when I took on Manticore Automaton as an AV and near the aggro cap of Nemesis. OK, yes, a soft-capped Dark Melee/Invuln and a number of other combinations can be even better. But Super Reflexes is no slouch. (Edit: Plus easy 95% defense debuff resistance. Tasty.) |
The scaling resistances are sometimes extraordinary in their strength, particularly when facing lots of minions with fast low damage attacks. You can find yourself hovering at practically one percent health. But once strong LTs and Bosses get thrown in, they become substantially weaker in overall protection. My average guestimate for their survival strength when you have all three is about 25% resistance. That's not the point where you "hover" but rather the amount of static resistance that is likely to save your life statistically the same amount of time overall and generate comparable amounts of downtime mitigation. Its a rough guess supported by some complex math and a lot of testing.
As to taking on large numbers of Nemesis: the problem with that is Vengeance. If there's no LTs, you're golden. If its wall to wall LTs in the mix, your toast unless you start doing some serious running around and spawn splitting. I just reran Gaussian's protect Lady Grey mission on my test MA/SR build at x8. Very very nasty.
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When people say that the added value of defense increases, they are not wrong, but they are making a proportional claim, not an absolute claim.
Imagine that you have 0% defense right now, and you are taking 100dps of incoming damage. Adding 5% defense will reduce that to 90dps.
Imagine that you have 40% defense right now, and you are taking 100dps of incoming damage. Adding 5% defense will reduce that to 50dps.
On the other hand. Imagine that you are taking attacks which would, if they always hit, do 100dps to you. Adding 5% defense will reduce that by 5dps, no matter how much defense you have, until you reach the cap.
However, most people are interested in questions closer to the first. You know how much damage you currently take. You want to know how much less damage than that you will take if you add 5% defense. And to that question, the answer is "it will make a bigger difference if you are at 40% than if you are at 10%." The reason is that the amount of damage that has to be coming in to be doing, say, 100dps to you after defense is much larger if you're at 40% defense than it would be if you had no defense, so the static 5% of "X" is larger, because X is larger.
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Send pics pls. kthxbai.
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Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
To be fair, my sister's pretty hot.
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Because I'm feeling lazy, and I'm sure in your considerations of the defense mechanic you've already thought of this, I have a question for you. What would be the consequences of removing defense from the tohit formula? Or more accurately, adding a new mechanic that provides a percentage chance to avoid an attack, prior to any tohit checks and allowing npcs to keep the old defense.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Soft-capped SR is certainly not weak, but I think people forget that cascade failure was just *one* of the SR weaknesses that were on my list of problematic situations. DDR virtually eliminates that one, but the others are still around, and while they aren't nearly as bad, they do significantly soften the strength of a soft-cap focused build. Autohitting damage and debuffs in particular are a double nasty because they can run right through soft capped defenses and make aid self problematic to use. And it seems the devs have started ratcheting up the tohit buffs in the last couple years, which is probably a reaction to so much defense buffs existing in the invention system.
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Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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I'm confident in saying it's not most people, but basically everyone not doing an academic trivial exercise on paper.|
Originally Posted by seebs
However, most people are interested in questions closer to the first.
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We don't buy mitigation powers to mitigate damage, we buy mitigation powers to stay alve in the face of damage. More mitigation serves two purposes, and two purposes only: allowing you to survive what's killing you now, and allowing you to take on more than what you do now. It's not because you'd like to see an additional five points per second of damage "mitigated.". We don't even *see* "mitigated damage" only admitted damage, the damage you take. We want that to be lower. It's for that reason that the true value of mitigation powers isn't arbitrary. Mathematically it's arbitrary, but in a practical sense the perspective that it keeps you alive longer, or against more stuff, is the absolute correct one, and the linear differential one is basically meaningless.
That's why the equations have to mean something. And by the way, the OP sidetracked into this error, but it wasnt the primary error. The primary error was that the OP thought the survivability equation said something it has never said, and the OP seems completely unaware there are time-based survival equations that specifically deal with the subject of time limited survival.
It's an odd error: the two forms of equation have been around since 2005.
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See: Elusivity.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Because I'm feeling lazy, and I'm sure in your considerations of the defense mechanic you've already thought of this, I have a question for you. What would be the consequences of removing defense from the tohit formula? Or more accurately, adding a new mechanic that provides a percentage chance to avoid an attack, prior to any tohit checks and allowing npcs to keep the old defense.
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I hope I'm not quoting this out of context, but it's rather refreshing to see someone else state this.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
For example, 35% defense and 40% resistance and 20hp/sec regen (which would be somewhere north of +300% regen on a mastermind) is numerically stronger than softcap plus slotted health.
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I'm not suggesting any validity to the so called "defense myth" but I do disagree with your's and Werner's perception of what the general player base believes about defense and soft capping. I see far too many builds that make what I perceive to be questionable sacrifices in the pursuit of defense soft cap.
In game, I frequently get tells asking how I soft capped my DM/DA and then shock when I explain I'm not. I also see player confused as to why they're soft capped characters is face planting while I'm still alive.
From my perspective, the majority of the player base (not forum posters), do believe defense soft cap is the end all be all of survivability.
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I remember Elusivity from the last time you paddled me with it. I also remember you used to call it Anti-accuracy. The intention, correct me if I'm wrong, being to make defensive sets better resist tohit buffs when considering the efficiency of each point of defense. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
See: Elusivity.
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My question is, what would be the drawback of pulling player's defense completly from the tohit calculation. My thought being if you did this the only option would be to have a seperate defense roll prior to the tohit roll. If the defense roll is a success then skip the tohit roll as it already counts as a miss. This would make player defensive sets ignore tohit buffs when considering the efficiency of each point of defense. And depending on how you have the system check the rolls, you may even be able to make player defense useful vs. autohit effects. Defense debuffs would need to be modified, but that would be obvious.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
(warning trace sarcasm ahead)
A fun bit of Conspiracy Theory ---
The Devs through the implementation of IOs and some other recent choices have Made Defense the premier method by which the majority players get Mitigation. Especially the IO crowd.
With more and more characters using mainly Defense ...
It makes it that much easier to alter the difficulty of the game.
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All you have to do is make your new baddies have "to hit" bonuses .. or higher base to hit .. or Autohit powers .. defense debuffs ...
And suddenly "All these new groups are hard!" 
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So the question isn't
"Which came first the perma elude chicken or the +3% defense Egg?"
--- Its actually whether or not the evolution was intelligent design.
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Elusivity actually exists in the game: it was added a while ago as a new game mechanics and first actually used when PvP was modified in I13. At the moment, it only exists in PvP, although the original idea was meant for both PvP and PvE.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
I remember Elusivity from the last time you paddled me with it. I also remember you used to call it Anti-accuracy. The intention, correct me if I'm wrong, being to make defensive sets better resist tohit buffs when considering the efficiency of each point of defense.
My question is, what would be the drawback of pulling player's defense completly from the tohit calculation. My thought being if you did this the only option would be to have a seperate defense roll prior to the tohit roll. If the defense roll is a success then skip the tohit roll as it already counts as a miss. This would make player defensive sets ignore tohit buffs when considering the efficiency of each point of defense. And depending on how you have the system check the rolls, you may even be able to make player defense useful vs. autohit effects. Defense debuffs would need to be modified, but that would be obvious. |
The way it was implemented, which was basically how I first described it, is as an accuracy factor, just a negative one. You know how AoE mezzes have an intrinsic accuracy penalty, usually 0.8 acc rather than 1.0 acc? Well, Elu basically works like that: if you have 40% Elu, all attacks against you act as if, on top of all other factors, there was a 0.6 accuracy factor at the end (1.0 - 0.4).
I've never been able to twist Castle's arm hard enough to get him to look at Elu for PvE. It's a technical design difference of opinion having to do with debuffs (among other things), and unfortunately it's not an argument I'm likely to ever win against him. But it is technically feasible to use in PvE, it's just a question of being extra careful with balance, because Elu needs a light tough: it can be ultra powerful in large amounts. Even the 30% or so they added to PvP at the start was extremely balance-significant.
I wouldn't *replace* defense with Elu. I would use both in combination, because they have advantages and disadvantages.
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Well, as I mentioned upstream, I wouldn't presume to guess what everyone thinks in-game unchallenged. People believe some really crazy things, actually. I could write a book on just what I've heard in-game. I've had me quoted to me (unknowingly) in arguments.|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
I'm not suggesting any validity to the so called "defense myth" but I do disagree with your's and Werner's perception of what the general player base believes about defense and soft capping. I see far too many builds that make what I perceive to be questionable sacrifices in the pursuit of defense soft cap.
In game, I frequently get tells asking how I soft capped my DM/DA and then shock when I explain I'm not. I also see player confused as to why they're soft capped characters is face planting while I'm still alive. From my perspective, the majority of the player base (not forum posters), do believe defense soft cap is the end all be all of survivability. |
But in the checks and balances realm of the scrapper forums in particular, and most number crunching forum threads in general, I don't think the soft-cap-is-god idea is a viable position: it usually gets strongly challenged in my experience.
The number crunching community on the forums for this game has not always been right, or objective, or even always very smart. But it has, in my experience, done a very good job of rejecting the stupid and erroneous, and almost always ratcheting forward towards generally better ideas. It's worth noting I used to be one of the most controversial number crunchers posters, because my posts did not reflect the status quo, pretty much ever. Now, while people don't agree with everything I say (nor should they automatically do so) I'm about as controversial (when it comes to number crunching) as a train schedule.
Which works to the advantage of newer players wanting to learn. Most of the people who've posted in this thread do not agree with me or each other on everything, or sometimes hardly anything. But they will all defend the methodology because it's not really mine, it's the number crunching community's methodology, and it's been battle-tested now for years. At the margins, there's room for healthy debate, but at the core the issues of how we look at simple things like damage mitigation are pretty much settled. If youre a new player and you want to know who to believe, the easy answer is: when it comes to the basics, the overwhelming majority of number crunching actve forum posters, most of whom have survived strong peer review.
For more complex topics, you'll just have to play the game and then decide who makes the most sense based on your experience. Or just listen to what I say.
Just yesterday I broke one of my own rules, and I paid the price for not listening to me. The rule? Never go to a store with a purple in your inventory. NEVER
I need to add a new rule: never go to the store half-asleep.
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Well, I almost never team, so I honestly don't know what the general player base believes. So you could be right. That amuses me, but I can't really fault people. If all you hear is occasional whispers from the grapevine, you might hear "soft cap" when what we're really saying is something much more qualified, like "the soft cap is often one component of good survivability builds, but this depends significantly on your choice of primary and secondary".|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
I'm not suggesting any validity to the so called "defense myth" but I do disagree with your's and Werner's perception of what the general player base believes about defense and soft capping. I see far too many builds that make what I perceive to be questionable sacrifices in the pursuit of defense soft cap.
In game, I frequently get tells asking how I soft capped my DM/DA and then shock when I explain I'm not. I also see player confused as to why they're soft capped characters is face planting while I'm still alive. From my perspective, the majority of the player base (not forum posters), do believe defense soft cap is the end all be all of survivability. |
I'd be shocked to see a soft-capped DM/DA running around, though maybe there are some. I just can't think how I'd possibly go about building one that wasn't seriously compromised in other critical areas. (Edit: And I LOVES me some soft cap, so I'm not rejecting the idea lightly.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I suspect that lack of sleep is one of the major causes of scrapper death and economic pain in the game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The rule? Never go to a store with a purple in your inventory. NEVER
I need to add a new rule: never go to the store half-asleep. |
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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I see a lot of ignorant things said in odd-ball places in the game. I can't say that soft-capping is one of the ones that came up often enough for me to take note of it as a common theme. People have weird notions about powersets that are good or bad, weird notions about tactics and strategy, and weird notions about how powers work (which often factor back into the weird notions about powesets and tactics).|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
I'm not suggesting any validity to the so called "defense myth" but I do disagree with your's and Werner's perception of what the general player base believes about defense and soft capping. I see far too many builds that make what I perceive to be questionable sacrifices in the pursuit of defense soft cap.
In game, I frequently get tells asking how I soft capped my DM/DA and then shock when I explain I'm not. I also see player confused as to why they're soft capped characters is face planting while I'm still alive. From my perspective, the majority of the player base (not forum posters), do believe defense soft cap is the end all be all of survivability. |
I find that the worst misinformed players are so misinformed that breaking out the notion of the soft-cap in discussion with them would be like suddenly discussing Newton's laws to a child awed by their first sight of all the people and shiny lights in a shopping mall. Their lack of knowledge about something like what mitigation is good to build for is rooted in a much more fundamental lack of knowledge about the game.
Note that I never fault people for a lack of knowledge, unless I know for sure they've been around long enough to know better but are making a truly boneheaded assertion. But even for vets, it sometimes depends on what they're asserting - CoH is a pretty simple game compared to some, but the math behind how it works can get quite dense if you drill down into it. I think it's fair for people who aren't interested in getting their arms dirty in that math to have misunderstandings, to a point.
No, the only thing I fault people for is a hard-headed refusal to listen to how things work when what they're bring told is something we think isn't actually controversial any more. Fortunately, it's fairly easy to point them to the community's large repository of game information, which usually contains the more non-controversial game mechanics in multiple places.
People still have to be careful, though. Not too long back I got into an argument with someone who was telling me how Pylons worked in a RWZ raid, and I knew from experience that what they were saying was wrong, but they were armed with misinformation from ParagonWiki. (The "right" one, no less.) That made them very hard to convince that I wasn't some n00b, though eventually enough other people agreed with me that they were convinced.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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as one would likely fall in this category (without the hard headed refusal) it can be a touch intimidating when attempting to enter these discussions, but i always enjoy seeing them. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
........
Note that I never fault people for a lack of knowledge, unless I know for sure they've been around long enough to know better but are making a truly boneheaded assertion. But even for vets, it sometimes depends on what they're asserting - CoH is a pretty simple game compared to some, but the math behind how it works can get quite dense if you drill down into it. I think it's fair for people who aren't interested in getting their arms dirty in that math to have misunderstandings, to a point. No, the only thing I fault people for is a hard-headed refusal to listen to how things work when what they're bring told is something we think isn't actually controversial any more. Fortunately, it's fairly easy to point them to the community's large repository of game information, which usually contains the more non-controversial game mechanics in multiple places. ......... |
i've played the game for a long time on and off, but never peered into the math much until recently, with um, mixed results. search engines are great things, when the search terms match what it is you're actually looking for rather than vague or generalized terms, so if there is a centralized equations place i'd love to see it. i can work a calculator as well as the next mostly bald monkey. perhaps some people would just like a good place to start with.
Kittens give Morbo gas.
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Eh, both my DA scrapper & tanker are softcapped to S/L def w/nary a sacrifice. Post I19, my DA tank will also be capped to E/N as well (still need to finish his respec, #3 tonight!), again w/o skimping on resists, attacks, recharge for Dark Regen, etc. Pre I19, I in fact didn't softcap him to E/N because I thought it would compromise too many areas (including some gimped slotting), but w/3 extra power choices, it's not that bad any more.|
Originally Posted by Werner
I'd be shocked to see a soft-capped DM/DA running around, though maybe there are some. I just can't think how I'd possibly go about building one that wasn't seriously compromised in other critical areas. (Edit: And I LOVES me some soft cap, so I'm not rejecting the idea lightly.)
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Then again, I don't strive for pylon time records (well, certainly not w/my tank
) and don't care that I have the absolute top DPS chain, just that I have a pretty good one.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Bare in mind, I was referring to Dark Armor for scrappers. I strongly suspect Werner was as well. Soft Capping on a Dark Armor tanker is considerably easier and would require little if any compromises.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
Eh, both my DA scrapper & tanker are softcapped to S/L def w/nary a sacrifice. Post I19, my DA tank will also be capped to E/N as well (still need to finish his respec, #3 tonight!), again w/o skimping on resists, attacks, recharge for Dark Regen, etc. Pre I19, I in fact didn't softcap him to E/N because I thought it would compromise too many areas (including some gimped slotting), but w/3 extra power choices, it's not that bad any more.
Then again, I don't strive for pylon time records (well, certainly not w/my tank ) and don't care that I have the absolute top DPS chain, just that I have a pretty good one. |
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Quote me:|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
Bare in mind, I was referring to Dark Armor for scrappers. I strongly suspect Werner was as well. Soft Capping on a Dark Armor tanker is considerably easier and would require little if any compromises.
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| Eh, both my DA scrapper & tanker are softcapped to S/L def w/nary a sacrifice. |
Actually, I should say hardly a sacrifice, not quite nary. Either way, well worth the effort.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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We're veering on a tangent here, but soft capping to one damage type isn't in the same realm of effort a soft capping to all three positions or all damage types.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
Quote me:
The scrapper took more work, to be sure, and there's no way I'm even thinking of E/N capping him. S/L is doable, even on a scrapper, esp with I19 freeing up an extra pool for Maneuvers. Actually, I should say hardly a sacrifice, not quite nary. Either way, well worth the effort. |
Now for Dark Armor specifically, I'd place greater effort into Energy Defense over Smash/Lethal, but that's how I chose to build Dark Armor.
Werner's point (and he'll correct me if I'm off) was soft capping a Dark Armor scrapper (as in to all three positons or all types) would require unpleasant sacrifices. Which I agree with.
My point to your post was that such sacrfices would not be necessary on a Dark Armor tanker.
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Just as an aside, I'd probably go s/l over energy defense if that was the choice, because my guestimate is over 2/3rds of critter attacks out there are vectored s/l, and pure energy vectors are not common (mostly rad and electric attacks, which are not as common as the more common). But the devils in the details there.|
Originally Posted by Desmodos
We're veering on a tangent here, but soft capping to one damage type isn't in the same realm of effort a soft capping to all three positions or all damage types.
Now for Dark Armor specifically, I'd place greater effort into Energy Defense over Smash/Lethal, but that's how I chose to build Dark Armor. Werner's point (and he'll correct me if I'm off) was soft capping a Dark Armor scrapper (as in to all three positons or all types) would require unpleasant sacrifices. Which I agree with. My point to your post was that such sacrfices would not be necessary on a Dark Armor tanker. |
It does make me think I should start working on my DA Incarnate respec next. It's actually been years since I've actually respeced anything seriously. I've thought about it, but with I19 I'm actually considering wholesale rebuilds of all my main level 50s. Its just getting a bit expensive to do them all, even with, shall we say, optimized acquisition strategies (just because I don't usually do it, doesnt mean I'm not very good at it).
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Ships raids/rikti in general have a fair amount of pure energy damage, in their ranged attacks.
Even there, if I had to pick one, I would go for s/l and try to force them to melee.
For chars I want to expose to the ship raid or similar(mixed damage types), I usually shoot for a respectible balance (~30+) across everything, where I can pop a luck and not have a hole, or just have a single hole I can try to plug with healing.
Also, I remember having the discussion which prompted this thread about 4 years ago. It really wasn't funny even then, but they eventually got the idea than it wasn't totally linear.
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I like this. I think this may be my new favorite euphemism.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
optimized acquisition strategies
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@Demobot
Also on Steam
I was not saying /SR's are not good.
Just that Set bonuses are skewed towards raising defense. Allowing other sets which normally wouldn't have high defenses to benefit disproportionately.
For whatever reason the Devs made it possible to get +25% defense from IO sets but not +25% resist or +500% regen.
Which I believe is pretty similar to Arana's point.
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I primarily play MA/SR -softcapped, with the healing uniques and all that stuff. And my survivability is very good. I am not actually complaining.
But it sure isn't the same as a WP who can copy my best trick, soft capped defenses.