Create bosses from player characters
By
BrandX,
Posted on: 2010-12-05 09:32 in Suggestions and Ideas
I can see some major issues coming up with this from the get go, both conceptually and technically, so I'm gonna have to /unsign this politely, before this thread gets hit by the flames.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Quote:
Really? I tried to think of any significant negatives, and I couldn't come up with any. Can you elaborate?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I can see some major issues coming up with this from the get go, both conceptually and technically, so I'm gonna have to /unsign this politely, before this thread gets hit by the flames.
|
Oh, and I greatly appreciate the politeness. :-)
Technical: More calls on the database when the missions are loaded to select a player villain at random. Issues with their level, powers and abilities (Dopplegangers don't get access to some powers IIRC), power customization negated (As with current dopplegangers), Need for Bios or application of a generic bio.
Conceptual: Power customization negated, players may not want their characters appearing in such missions, issues in roleplay from characters being put into such missions (Characterization, interaction with others.)
Unsigned, let's see more interesting NPC Heroes/Villains.
I already don't care for many of the dumb looking/named characters I end up playing with on pick-up groups, I *really* don't want to end up being forced to face such characters...and it would be even worse if said stupid-looking/dumb-named/[insert copyrighted character]-rip off actually beat me because they just happen to have a particularly potent power like Elude or Energy Drain.
Quote:
Most of those issues I'm not convinced would really be problems.|
Originally Posted by Zortel
Technical: More calls on the database when the missions are loaded to select a player villain at random. Issues with their level, powers and abilities (Dopplegangers don't get access to some powers IIRC), power customization negated (As with current dopplegangers), Need for Bios or application of a generic bio.
Conceptual: Power customization negated, players may not want their characters appearing in such missions, issues in roleplay from characters being put into such missions (Characterization, interaction with others.) Unsigned, let's see more interesting NPC Heroes/Villains. |
But "players may not want their characters appearing in such missions." Yeah, as I think more about it, I think you may be right. I was thinking about it from the "majority rules" angle (i.e. if most players would have fun with it, then do it), but maybe our characters are a bit too personal to take that approach.
So, carp, I think I have to /unsign my own suggestion. :-)
Oh! How about this: set up a way for players to _submit_ their characters for missions like this. (And part of the submission process could be that your character has to have a decent bio.) Inappropriate characters could be weeded out, no one would have their character used without their permission, and we could get more interesting NPC Heroes/Villains faster, since we'd be trimming down the work required.
Quote:
ROFLMAO!|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
...and it would be even worse if said stupid-looking/dumb-named/[insert copyrighted character]-rip off actually beat me because they just happen to have a particularly potent power like Elude or Energy Drain.
|
Well now I think it's almost worth implementing, just to see people raging about that.
Quote:
And, here's a heads up, thats a really bad design ideal. Thats 'Difficulty through Frustration', and its a concept that the previous lead Dev, Jack 'Im always Right!' Emmert used way, WAY too much. |
Originally Posted by JonScott
ROFLMAO!
Well now I think it's almost worth implementing, just to see people raging about that. |
So, no, it really wouldn't be funny. The game, and thats kinda the important definition, is meant to be fun for the players. First and foremost.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
I know. I was just joking. :-)
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And, here's a heads up, thats a really bad design ideal. Thats 'Difficulty through Frustration', and its a concept that the previous lead Dev, Jack 'Im always Right!' Emmert used way, WAY too much.
So, no, it really wouldn't be funny. The game, and thats kinda the important definition, is meant to be fun for the players. First and foremost. |
Quote:
I like this idea. I would submit a few characters for this if I could. Also, maybe this could be applied to Mayhem/Safeguard. (Maybe not Tips because those deal with morality and may contradict the lore I have for my characters.)
|
Originally Posted by JonScott
Most of those issues I'm not convinced would really be problems.
But "players may not want their characters appearing in such missions." Yeah, as I think more about it, I think you may be right. Oh! How about this: set up a way for players to _submit_ their characters for missions like this. (And part of the submission process could be that your character has to have a decent bio.) Inappropriate characters could be weeded out, no one would have their character used without their permission, and we could get more interesting NPC Heroes/Villains faster, since we'd be trimming down the work required. |
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
I could see being able to import one of your own specific toons as a boss in an AE mission you create, but I would rather not fight someones randomly picked PC in a regular mission.
Quote:
But it is something that would be interesting if monitored. I was busy playing a character of mine, Mercury Mage (one of the living robots created from the schematics of Tin Mage) and picked up a tip mission involving Tin Mage out of the blue. I'd definitely offer Mercury Mage (Vigilante) and Iron Mage (Rogue) as bosses in any tip missions involving that lore. And if the devs like the characters and players liked them, it'd be cool if they made it in a TF and, technically, become signature characters in-game.|
Originally Posted by Remaugen
I could see being able to import one of your own specific toons as a boss in an AE mission you create, but I would rather not fight someones randomly picked PC in a regular mission.
|
Just start it out with something a bit minor like a tip mission...at least this way, we won't get randomish, dumb looking player made bosses in missions they don't make sense for.
Quote:
Yeah, I was thinking tip missions and radio/newspaper missions, just because those tend to be one-offs with bosses you never hear from again, so you don't have to fit PC bosses into the lore. And the radio/newspaper missions get mindnumbing, since they are so isolated, so putting PC bosses in them would hopefully make them a little more interesting, since you wouldn't know from mission to mission exactly what you'd be facing.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Just start it out with something a bit minor like a tip mission...at least this way, we won't get randomish, dumb looking player made bosses in missions they don't make sense for.
|
Maybe have a promotion system. Players submit characters for use in missions. Characters that are good enough get tried out in tip and radio missions. Set up a system so players can vote for the bosses they liked and think deserve a larger place in the City of Universe. The ones that get a lot of votes (and that meet dev standards, to avoid people voting in wimpy bosses just because they're easy to take down) get promoted into larger missions and story arcs and maybe eventually their own task forces, and the players who submitted them get some kind of rewards (badges, Reward Merits) for having their characters voted into the ranks of the Big Boys.
Quote:
Basically this (except for the Elude/Energy Drain...that I wouldn't have a problem with)|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I already don't care for many of the dumb looking/named characters I end up playing with on pick-up groups, I *really* don't want to end up being forced to face such characters...and it would be even worse if said stupid-looking/dumb-named/[insert copyrighted character]-rip off actually beat me because they just happen to have a particularly potent power like Elude or Energy Drain.
|
Not to mention the devs already have a hard time catching all the trademark infringers, so they'd get into the missions.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
BrandX hit the unspoken problem on the head.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Basically this (except for the Elude/Energy Drain...that I wouldn't have a problem with)
Not to mention the devs already have a hard time catching all the trademark infringers, so they'd get into the missions. |
A good number of players in the game go out of their way to create names with double meanings; copy existing trademarked or copyrighted characters; or just plain by-pass the word filter.
The only way NCSoft would be able to avoid the inevitable lawsuit would literally require having to hire somebody's whose only job would be to sit at a computer and make sure that every name and costume used by such a system met with the content guidelines of officially produced content. NCSoft would be ultimately responsible for any infractions making it through into the game.
To go ahead and shut down another avenue of idea, AE is not an excuse to do this either. The developers can flat out stick a player created content sticker on AE and if anybody threatens a lawsuit, point to that boilerplate sticker saying an actual player did the infraction, it was not developer created or endorsed.
Such protections would not apply, in any way, shape, or form, if the development staff were to call up the data-base on players directly for content outside of AE.
Quote:
Very good point. So the original idea--just randomly tapping the database--definitely wouldn't work.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
BrandX hit the unspoken problem on the head.
A good number of players in the game go out of their way to create names with double meanings; copy existing trademarked or copyrighted characters; or just plain by-pass the word filter. The only way NCSoft would be able to avoid the inevitable lawsuit would literally require having to hire somebody's whose only job would be to sit at a computer and make sure that every name and costume used by such a system met with the content guidelines of officially produced content. NCSoft would be ultimately responsible for any infractions making it through into the game. To go ahead and shut down another avenue of idea, AE is not an excuse to do this either. The developers can flat out stick a player created content sticker on AE and if anybody threatens a lawsuit, point to that boilerplate sticker saying an actual player did the infraction, it was not developer created or endorsed. Such protections would not apply, in any way, shape, or form, if the development staff were to call up the data-base on players directly for content outside of AE. |
What do you think about the idea of allowing players to submit their characters (instead of using random selection) maybe with the possibility of popular characters moving up the ranks and being given their own Story Arcs? There would be a review process, so the devs could nix inappropriate characters, but it would probably require far less resources than the original idea. The reviewers wouldn't have to scour the entire character database, just review the characters that were submitted, and having a submission process, with requirements such as a well-written bio, would limit the number of submissions.
Quote:
Suggestion has been made before, several times.|
Originally Posted by JonScott
Very good point. So the original idea--just randomly tapping the database--definitely wouldn't work.
What do you think about the idea of allowing players to submit their characters (instead of using random selection) maybe with the possibility of popular characters moving up the ranks and being given their own Story Arcs? There would be a review process, so the devs could nix inappropriate characters, but it would probably require far less resources than the original idea. The reviewers wouldn't have to scour the entire character database, just review the characters that were submitted, and having a submission process, with requirements such as a well-written bio, would limit the number of submissions. |
As far as I am directly aware, no red-name or NCSoft employee has responded to such requests in the past.
Quote:
The problem with this, is the same as before. A lot of work, for very little reward.|
Originally Posted by JonScott
Very good point. So the original idea--just randomly tapping the database--definitely wouldn't work.
What do you think about the idea of allowing players to submit their characters (instead of using random selection) maybe with the possibility of popular characters moving up the ranks and being given their own Story Arcs? There would be a review process, so the devs could nix inappropriate characters, but it would probably require far less resources than the original idea. The reviewers wouldn't have to scour the entire character database, just review the characters that were submitted, and having a submission process, with requirements such as a well-written bio, would limit the number of submissions. |
Now, I'm not against the idea. But think about it, I could have 36 characters on 12 servers, and submit them all. With or without the required guidelines, they'd have to go through them all, and then at the same time decide if character is worthwhile.
Let's not forget that players won't exactly care for the devs saying "your character sucks" so there's more of a headache.
The idea is awesome. What comes with implementing it would all be to much work.
Now, they could limit it to only one submission per user, but that's still a lot of users.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Imagine how embarassing it would be to get defeated by Captain Outhouse
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I already don't care for many of the dumb looking/named characters I end up playing with on pick-up groups, I *really* don't want to end up being forced to face such characters...and it would be even worse if said stupid-looking/dumb-named/[insert copyrighted character]-rip off actually beat me because they just happen to have a particularly potent power like Elude or Energy Drain.
|
http://www.scene-and-heard.com/cov/covsig.jpg
Quote:
What every idea boils down to in the end: is the fun it adds to the game worth the work it would take to implement it.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
The problem with this, is the same as before. A lot of work, for very little reward.
|
I was thinking we'd have a much better fun/work ratio, but thinking about what you've said ... yeah, I think you're right. Ah well.
As a side note, I'd like to thank everyone who's commented so far for keeping things so polite and civil. I think we all deserve a cookie. :-)
(Just to be clear: that's one cookie each. I don't do communal cookies.)
Quote:
CookieCake! http://www.greatamericancookies.com/cookieCakes.html|
Originally Posted by JonScott
What every idea boils down to in the end: is the fun it adds to the game worth the work it would take to implement it.
I was thinking we'd have a much better fun/work ratio, but thinking about what you've said ... yeah, I think you're right. Ah well. As a side note, I'd like to thank everyone who's commented so far for keeping things so polite and civil. I think we all deserve a cookie. :-) (Just to be clear: that's one cookie each. I don't do communal cookies.) |
* * *
As kind of a side note / edit, getting players into canon-lore or events was one of the (unspoken long-term) goals of the AE system. Fearghas, for example, is now Dr. Aeon, largely because of his extensive work through Mission Architecture.
What the developers probably did not expect was the rise of A.E. Exploiters, and the flood of abusive cliques who work to up-rate stories of the clique's creation, and down-rate stories of other players. The very short-term effect has been that Mission Architecture, as a tool for Paragon Studios to filter out genuine content creation talent and then use that talent to produce officially published content, has largely been marginalized.
I think we're more likely to see a nemesis/arch-enemy system be added first
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Conceptual: I don't want my characters included. Many of my villains aren't actually going to wander around punching random heroes in the face "just because." And I, personally, don't like things like The Armory from that other game - I find the idea of other people pawing through my character list to be deeply repulsive, which is why I don't use things like City of Info Tracker or CoH Faces. And which is one of the reasons that *all* of my characters are hidden from the character database in the other two games I play that currently have such a feature.|
Originally Posted by JonScott
Really? I tried to think of any significant negatives, and I couldn't come up with any. Can you elaborate?
Oh, and I greatly appreciate the politeness. :-) |
Additionally, the ad-libs nature of Newspaper/radio missions means that my character will quite likely end up working with X group, that I've already decided is the mortal enemy of that character.
And, as you pointed out, some characters are simply silly and/or have names I do not care for. When I see such characters in-game, I have actually /ignored the player on that basis alone.
I think this needs to be both restricted and controlled.
Restricted: Have players pick which characters to include as showing up in only their own missions, and have them do so by hand. These can be characters out of their roster, characters of other people seen in the street (with their permission) or characters made out of whole cloth in the Architect. No character should appear in a mission without the owner's explicit permission, and no player should face another player character unless specifically requested.
Controlled: Such characters, when included, need to be subject to several at least general specifications. I'm thinking attitude, say picking between playful, deadpan, serious, arrogant, insane, archaic and cavemean. I'm not sure what other control I'd like to have over said character, other than perhaps the types of missions he or she would appear in, but at least the basic attitude need to be selectable, defining what the character says when encountered.
Do this, and I would would support the system completely.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Sadly...I know that, for free, I'd re-design the low level blueside content that they seem insistent on leaving as a big, smouldering pile of fail. I even managed Azuria's arc which seems to have gone down well so far (shameless plug in signature)
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
CookieCake! http://www.greatamericancookies.com/cookieCakes.html
* * * As kind of a side note / edit, getting players into canon-lore or events was one of the (unspoken long-term) goals of the AE system. Fearghas, for example, is now Dr. Aeon, largely because of his extensive work through Mission Architecture. What the developers probably did not expect was the rise of A.E. Exploiters, and the flood of abusive cliques who work to up-rate stories of the clique's creation, and down-rate stories of other players. The very short-term effect has been that Mission Architecture, as a tool for Paragon Studios to filter out genuine content creation talent and then use that talent to produce officially published content, has largely been marginalized. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
I think this would be really fun:
Add a bunch of new Boss Kill missions to the radio/newspaper and tips, where the boss is a copy of a player character randomly selected from the opposing faction database on the same server (Rogues and Vigilantes could find themselves facing either Heroes or Villains). The boss would be generated using the same technology thats used to create the Dopplegangers, and of course the copied character would be leveled up or down appropriately.
This would create some greater variety for Boss Kills, as well as making them more interesting and challenging, since youd never know just what to expect.
Of course youd occasionally end up fighting the nefarious XXPWNSYOUXX, NoobKillR17, or Generic Pinkman 1056, but I think that would be a small price to pay for the added fun.