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You're a braver poster than I am to say such things.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
I think you're onto something there. Honestly, after having messed around with various Tanker/Brute/Scrapper builds since the game's inception, if anything I'm of a mind now that Brutes are the odd man out, not Tankers.
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But I'm not convinced that Brutes get, natively, nearly enough of a survivability bonus over Scrappers to warrant the i18 top end nerf to Fury.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Scrappers comfortably exceed even full-Fury Brute damage (especially now that full Fury is 75%) with any set other than Super Strength, given equivalent investment.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
3.185 / 2.84 = ~1.12, or a 12% advantage. Granted, the Tanker gets more crashes, but even if we average crashes out over time, we end up with the Brute sitting at 3.185 * (120 / 130) = 2.94, and the Tanker sitting at 2.84 * (55/65) = 2.40, which is a 22.5% advantage for the Brute ...
Which is almost exactly what Bruising gives Tankers.  |
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Originally Posted by Obitus
So you're left with a significant but certainly not insurmountable disadvantage with respect to AoE damage and in teams where there's more than one Tanker -- but your single-target damage is essentially equivalent in all other scenarios, and your survivability ranges from marginally higher with heavy buff support, to several times higher with no buff support.
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The main advantage the Tanker gets are the HUGE defense numbers from Deflection, Battle Agility and Weave.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
We're also assuming the Brute is at full fury full-time, which isn't necessarily a fair assumption. What's somewhat amusing to me is that in any realistic situation that would invite a side-by-side comparison of Brute versus Tanker -- the Tanker will diminish the Brute's ability to maintain Fury simply by his very presence. (Because he cuts into the Brute's aggro.)
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You need to get their first, take the alpha, and it's generally smooth from there. But yes, no Brute is ever at 75% Fury all of the time.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
But a Tanker does have more opportunities to fit recharge bonuses into his build if we assume that both builds are going for some arbitrary and equivalent standard of IO-boosted survivability -- say soft-capped S/L DEF on a Willpower or INV character. That makes double-stacking Rage easier for the Tanker, who also has more incentive to stack it because the second Rage represents a higher proportional gain for him (the Brute only nets something like 10% extra DPS out of the second Rage if you account for the extra crashes).
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Originally Posted by Obitus
The bottom line is that Brutes are generalists. They're desirable because of their flexibility. Notice I'm not going so far as to say that Brutes are useless. But for standalone capability in the age of IOs, the extreme choices (in this case, Tanker and Scrapper) tend to be better from a pure min/max perspective because IOs allow you to shore up weaknesses and build on strengths. A by-design middle-of-the-road Archetype can be similarly improved, but at the end of the day it's still middle of the road.
Any accusation that can be leveraged at an over-specialized AT with respect to team attractiveness can also be leveraged at an over-generalized AT. For my money, the latter has more to worry about -- to the extent that any AT really needs to worry about type-A team leaders passing them over in what is generally a very easy game. |
I don't think we'll see Brutes passed up for teams - because as you said the game is generally very easy and Brutes are doing fine.
There is a lot of content where the Tanker survivability isn't needed, but there are also a lot of teams that will be better off with a Tanker instead of a Brute.
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I'm half with you on that. The devs messed up the second they decided to make two melee ATs and have one of them almost completely oriented to a highly situational role as a rodeo clown.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
In my opinion the Devs really screwed up when they made the tank AT.
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| When a tank could taunt an entire map, and pull a parade through Perez Park, that was when not doing much damage was a reasonable trade off. |
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| With every change they have made in the game, from taunt caps, to ED, to you name it, they have consistently bent Tanks over the Dev fun time table. |
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| In every other video game, seriously, every other game. The biggest guy does the most damage. Period. He may have an attack rate that would make a turtle yawn. He may miss more than most. He may lack cool stuff that other characters get. But, big guy = big damage in the videogame world. |
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../MightyGlacier
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoneWall
Tankers got stuck being the latter.
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| Think of the freaking name even. Armored, slow, big punch. They should have named these guys Armored Police deterrent wagons with no guns. Guess that would be too long though. |
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| Seriously, the only hope for the Devs with this AT is to bring the damage to the exact same level as Brutes, no Fury though. |
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| Take a Brute blueside, and you got a Tank that does damage. Or just take the Scrapper, as has been posted above, and really kill stuff (and still survive) |
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| the only thing Tanks are good for IMO is for tourists to the city who want a toon that they can walk around the most dangerous places to check out whats going on without fighting/dieing. |
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Does your farm build work well? Do you have to pop inspirations often, do you die often, can you do +4, etc?
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Originally Posted by Severe
first one is the farm build..and yes before anyone tells me its overkill or their not worth the money...im more then aware of my ocd in fire tanks thanks
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Speak for yourself bub. I find that even if I could tank a thousand mobs on a tank it would not be worth it. Because they do squat damage. I do not run arch types that do squat damage. |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
When a Tank could taunt an entire map the other ATs were superfluous and everybody knew it. That was only good for Tanker egos.
And "not doing much damage" isn't a tradeoff Tankers have to make. Tankers are the most damaging Heroside archetype*. It's true. *Except, of course, for the specialist damage-dealers, who admittedly do more damage for a significant or even extreme tradeoff in durability. |
the exception: farming. Sure, build a tank with a damage aura, set your AoE on auto, pull a thousand, go watch TV. Wait a minute, still not running the toon. Okay, not an exception. Interesting possibility though.
But yeah, Big guysdo big damage. Stretch the animation, lower the to hit chance, anything, but make the damn hits count. Nothing so stupid as watching the biggest guy on the team smack a Boss as hard as he can and nothing happen to the Boss's heath. Oh yeah, the boss attacks the tank. Probably cause he could hear the tank lisp gently "Dont you wanna play with me big boy'
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Both of those methods have been tried in the past, with less than stellar reception:|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Stretch the animation, lower the to hit chance, anything, but make the damn hits count.
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Granite used to have a large tohit penalty, which was later changed to a damage debuff because people hated missing. Energy Transfer's animation was stretched out to maintain its damage (instead of a quicker animation and lower damage) and people complain about corpse blasting.
Not saying you wouldn't prefer it, but it's not as if those models have been completely ignored.
yeah, corpse blasting is the most irritating thing in the world when you are slow to begin with. But seriously, this guy said Tanks do the most damage blueside. I mean, really, what kind of head damage did the guy suffer that he could come to that conclusion. Personally, I like the feel of melee characters. The closest I have come to playing a 1st person shooter is the Armored Core series For those of you that know it you might realize why like CoX so much, infinite customization. I have played all the melee classes in the city, with the exception of widows. I like a real tanky character, because I prefer to shrug off damage rather than try to calculate strategy. If I wanted strategy, I would be playing chess, which I am passably good at. So, i play CoX for character customization, and the love of the melee grind. Now, normally I grab the most survivable guy and jump right in. 99.9% of the time I am happiest with this decision. CoX is the 1st time I can recall that it had to be rethought. In the end I became a fan of the brute arch type, although I always preferred heroes before. I would still love access to the tankers armors, but damage nerf stacked on damage nerf is to high a price for me. The trade off is not optimal. (1st damage nerf = tankers do less damage than brutes period, 2nd is tanks get gauntlet, brutes get fury)
But yeah, like the man said Tanks do the most damage Blueside, so any day now I'l be rolling one up as my next main.
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absolutely he can do +4's!...i dont remember dying while farming.
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Originally Posted by Bounty_Assist
Does your farm build work well? Do you have to pop inspirations often, do you die often, can you do +4, etc?
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Well, it's a tough thing to balance. Brutes are theoretically the best all-around meleers, given a certain level of buff support. Before the Fury changes, I could easily have said that Scrappers didn't get enough of an offensive advantage relative to Brutes. At first, a lot of people did say that, in fact.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
But I'm not convinced that Brutes get, natively, nearly enough of a survivability bonus over Scrappers to warrant the i18 top end nerf to Fury.
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The thing is that if you like playing in groups, then you're more likely to be drawn to Tankers -- because Tankers have a decidedly team-oriented set of tools that aren't dependent on this-or-that team composition to function well. Your survivability or your aggro control might be overkill in a given team, but you're not worried too much about whether any team has the right buffs.
Likewise, if you're a solo-oriented player, then more damage is always better, all else being more or less equal. Scrappers are the obvious choice because they don't give up much of anything relative to Brutes for their superior stand-alone damage.
Brutes are a mechanically solid middle ground on paper, and they're certainly not gimpy in practice, even solo. I'm just not sure that melee in this game really needed a middle ground. Heck, ever since before Brutes even existed, we've had endless debates on these forums about whether Scrappers were too survivable relative to Tankers, or Tankers too damaging relative to Scrappers.
Why an AT that splits that relatively small difference should be considered unreservedly better than one or the other is beyond me. But hey, different strokes.
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The survivability difference [presumably between SD Brute and SD Tanker] wasn't nearly as large as I thought it would be when I was comparing builds. Another 100 HP or so, another 10% resistances across the board. The main advantage the Tanker gets are the HUGE defense numbers from Deflection, Battle Agility and Weave. |
33% higher resistance and 33% higher DEF and 25% higher hitpoints (which makes for 25% higher regeneration). All of those things multiply one another. Now if we're going to assume that both characters have used IOs to get to the DEF soft cap, then yeah, sure, that's a bit of a wash -- but then we also have to understand that the Tanker had to sacrifice less to get there.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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It all depends on your point of view. I can't know exactly what Sailboat was talking about, but I gather that he makes a distinction between specialized damage dealers (Blasters, Scrappers) and everything else. It is worth pointing out that Tankers have the third highest native damage potential among hero-side ATs.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
yeah, corpse blasting is the most irritating thing in the world when you are slow to begin with. But seriously, this guy said Tanks do the most damage blueside. I mean, really, what kind of head damage did the guy suffer that he could come to that conclusion.
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The complaints that Tanker damage sucks are greatly exaggerated.
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| Now, normally I grab the most survivable guy and jump right in. 99.9% of the time I am happiest with this decision. CoX is the 1st time I can recall that it had to be rethought. |
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| I would still love access to the tankers armors, but damage nerf stacked on damage nerf is to high a price for me. The trade off is not optimal. (1st damage nerf = tankers do less damage than brutes period, 2nd is tanks get gauntlet, brutes get fury) |
Tankers also recently got Bruising to offset their single-target-damage disadvantage. That change came at the same time that Brutes got their peak Fury damage lowered. (And incidentally, Tankers got a hefty boost to their max HP.)
The net result is that Tankers are a lot closer to Brutes in terms of damage output than they were pre-GR. And Brutes are less competitive with Scrappers.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I think I would add the caveat "playing in pick up groups", playing with a static group of friends who are all competent players - I personally have little need to go Tanker for taking alphas and locking down spawns.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
The thing is that if you like playing in groups, then you're more likely to be drawn to Tankers -- because Tankers have a decidedly team-oriented set of tools that aren't dependent on this-or-that team composition to function well. Your survivability or your aggro control might be overkill in a given team, but you're not worried too much about whether any team has the right buffs.
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If I played exclusively in the wilds of pick up teams, the Tanker becomes more attractive.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Brutes are a mechanically solid middle ground on paper, and they're certainly not gimpy in practice, even solo. I'm just not sure that melee in this game really needed a middle ground.
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It's only Going Rogue in my opinion that brought about the Fury change and Brutes pushed to occupy the very narrow strip of middle ground between Scrappers and Tankers.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
It will depend on your defensive set, certainly. I'm no expert on Shield Defense, but it seems uniquely to favor the Brute in the comparison. If you're talking INV or Willpower, all of the layering tends to give the Tanker a larger advantage at least with respect to stand-alone survivability.
33% higher resistance and 33% higher DEF and 25% higher hitpoints (which makes for 25% higher regeneration). All of those things multiply one another. Now if we're going to assume that both characters have used IOs to get to the DEF soft cap, then yeah, sure, that's a bit of a wash -- but then we also have to understand that the Tanker had to sacrifice less to get there. |
That's all true, but once you take AAO away from the Tanker, the Brute begins to pull away in damage again by a very good margin.
Still I think Tanker "low damage output" is largely exaggerated in comparison to Tanker survivability levels and their intended role on teams.
There has to be some sacrifice for that level of mitigation.
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Personally I think the misunderstanding is the result of some lengthy threads elsewhere on these forums where folks have gone to great lengths calculating the most damaging AT/Powerset/etc on paper.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Still I think Tanker "low damage output" is largely exaggerated in comparison to Tanker survivability levels and their intended role on teams. There has to be some sacrifice for that level of mitigation. |
Less than optimal is not the same as sucking.
A tank may not normally go around one shotting purple con bosses but he won't be that far behind a scrapper or brute.
I also suspect that many of the folks who complain about tanker damage have not applied the same level of IO planning to the goal as they would for a scrapper or brute, further distorting the perception. Judging from the threads I see here, most tank builds focus far more on maximizing survivability (which they don't really need) than they do on maximizing dps.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
First, it took me 5 years to get into tanking. Then I discovered WP/SS. What a blast.
I really enjoy tanking with him and it's actually created a certain level of respect for tanks in general. I know they're not needed on a well oiled machine, but man, when you get on one that isn't well oiled, tanks can really help out a lot.
Now, I'm playing with an EA/KM and a Inv/Stone tank and really enjoying them too. So it would appear that all I needed was the right tank for me to enjoy tanking.
Justice
Everwood
Triumph
The Trust
Tanks were developed and first used in combat by the British during World War 1 as a means to break the deadlock of trench warfare.
Like that the Tanker can also break enemy lines and attract fire giving the other important lot an important advantage. Minimum requirement.
I do have a thing for tanks.
Any person putting themselves in harms way for someone else is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. So the Tanky AT is the most heroic AT.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Since I do this on all of my Brutes who must withstand the incoming damage with less Defense to build from, less HP, less regen, lower status resistances and less native damage resistances - does that make my Brutes even more heroic? |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Any person putting themselves in harms way for someone else is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice. So the Tanky AT is the most heroic AT.
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No.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Since I do this on all of my Brutes who must withstand the incoming damage with less Defense to build from, less HP, less regen, lower status resistances and less native damage resistances - does that make my Brutes even more heroic?
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But it does make him dumber.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Absolutely.|
Originally Posted by abnormal_joe
Less than optimal is not the same as sucking.
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It's also only less than optimal if you want to deal damage, while Tankers are completely optimal if you want to survive incoming damage.
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Originally Posted by abnormal_joe
I also suspect that many of the folks who complain about tanker damage have not applied the same level of IO planning to the goal as they would for a scrapper or brute, further distorting the perception. Judging from the threads I see here, most tank builds focus far more on maximizing survivability (which they don't really need) than they do on maximizing dps.
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Although in fairness, there's not much in the way of bonuses that will allow a Tanker to add +damage bonuses through IO sets.
Incarnate Abilities on the other hand...
Still, I do see a lot of over slotting of defensive/resitance toggles, and lack of overall investment in Recharge Bonuses (one of the best ways to increase damage output) on most Tanker builds on the forums.
Tankers, with their tremendous native Defense and Resistance bonuses are in a situation more than any other melee AT to take advantage of both getting to the softcap and heaping tonnes of recharge into their builds.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
No.
But it does make him dumber. |
Oh ye of little faith.
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I think you'll find that if you're slotting for positional defense, most sets will give you a damage bonus(along with a damage proc). My Elec/Fire has a 20% total damage bonus from sets, and I can fire my PBAoE's like crazy now, thanks in part to the spiritual alpha(Hasten is now on a 10 seconds cooldown with the uncommon boost).|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Although in fairness, there's not much in the way of bonuses that will allow a Tanker to add +damage bonuses through IO sets.
Still, I do see a lot of over slotting of defensive/resitance toggles, and lack of overall investment in Recharge Bonuses (one of the best ways to increase damage output) on most Tanker builds on the forums. Tankers, with their tremendous native Defense and Resistance bonuses are in a situation more than any other melee AT to take advantage of both getting to the softcap and heaping tonnes of recharge into their builds. |
Also, Elec Armor rocks on the new TF's. Except that Hydra level. Yuck. Does that thing ignore defense or something?
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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I don't build tanks offensively because that feels, at least to me, like buying a Humvee and outfitting it for drag racing. You'd be better off starting with a Kia. Any Kia.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Although in fairness, there's not much in the way of bonuses that will allow a Tanker to add +damage bonuses through IO sets.
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If I wanted to be an offensive character, I'd be a scrapper or a brute or a mastermind or anything else. I looked at the list of ATs and chose Tank because I wanted to survive anything the game had to throw at me. I want to off road in a combat zone, so I'm going to buy my Humvee, add armor plating and make sure the wheels get enough torque to carry it around.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Oh ye of little faith.
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"Ok, so you can walk a tightrope a thousand feet in the air, but I do it without a safety net."
Sure, you can both do the same thing and you're both probably just as good at walking tightropes, and you might even get across faster, but one of you is smart enough to have a safety net. Just in case.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
The problem with the Tank concept for MANY people it seems to me is that they confuse the concept of the Tank with the concept of what is most commonly called in Super Hero RPG and Comicdom as the "BRICK".
The classic Brick character can take a hellacious amount of damage but it also dishes out an incredible amount of damage as well usually in Comicdom or PNPRPG Pen and Paper 0 world through because of massive strength.
Then there is the TankMage style character who can pretty much do all and be all and doesnt really need a team because they can beat almost anyone or anything by themselves.
I believe many come to CoH expecting the TANK to be this and are sorely dissappointed when its not. They fail to grasp the Tank concept well and see a scrapper outdamaging a Tank and since what they REALLY want to do is damage the get frustrated with the Tank AT.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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In pen and paper games, that works. You can have someone that takes and deals all the damage, because there's a lot more to those game than damage. You need someone with the charisma to talk his way out of situations, someone skilled enough to get through traps... etc. |
Originally Posted by Airhammer
The classic Brick character can take a hellacious amount of damage but it also dishes out an incredible amount of damage as well usually in Comicdom or PNPRPG Pen and Paper 0 world through because of massive strength.
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The point is, in a pen and paper game, there are plenty of things a "brick," or as I would call him, a fighter, cannot do. This is the balance.
In an MMO, all there is to the game is damage. If you have an AT or a class that can deal enough damage to kill anything on its own and take enough damage to survive anything on its own, then it is out of balance.
I agree with you, Airhammer, that most people are expecting a Brick when they roll a tank.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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To stretch the analogy -- we're all bound by the speed limit. The practical performance difference between the Lamborghini and the Hummer isn't all that big a deal in a game where the most commonly applicable standard for damage output is, "How many hits does it take to kill this (spawn of) minion(s)."|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I don't build tanks offensively because that feels, at least to me, like buying a Humvee and outfitting it for drag racing. You'd be better off starting with a Kia. Any Kia.
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My Scrapper two or three shots minions (depending on the difficulty level and which part of my attack chain I'm using). My Tanker two or three shots minions. And my Tanker has better sustained AoE damage output.
So what if the Scrapper isn't using optimal powersets. The point is that Tanker damage is more than decent. Then we can factor in travel times -- between missions, between spawns, between targets -- and the proportional time advantage for having Scrapper-level damage dwindles. A generic Scrapper may kill that boss 40% faster than I can (in reality it depends on the specific build), but I'm still finishing missions within 10-15% of a Scrapper's time.
Are there scenarios where a Scrapper's damage advantage will be felt? Of course there are -- just as there are scenarios where a Tanker's survivability advantage will dominate the player's experience. The grass is always greener. There's certainly nothing wrong with having an offensively slanted Tanker build. And with IOs and Incarnate content, now you can pretty well have your cake and eat it too.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Not exactly. On +0 difficulty, yes, the tanker and the scrapper will take about the same number of attacks to flatten a mob. As the difficulty increases, the performance gap becomes clearly visible. Now we've gone from back roads to the autobahn.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
To stretch the analogy -- we're all bound by the speed limit. The practical performance difference between the Lamborghini and the Hummer isn't all that big a deal in a game where the most commonly applicable standard for damage output is, "How many hits does it take to kill this (spawn of) minion(s)."
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Are there scenarios where a Scrapper's damage advantage will be felt? Of course there are -- just as there are scenarios where a Tanker's survivability advantage will dominate the player's experience. The grass is always greener.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
There's certainly nothing wrong with having an offensively slanted Tanker build. And with IOs and Incarnate content, now you can pretty well have your cake and eat it too.
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I plan to make a scrapper that does the opposite. He'll be Fire/Fire/Fire, loaded down with offensive bonuses, and survive just long enough for Rise of the Phoenix to recharge.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
There's nothing wrong with that build goal, however Tankers do have offensive capabilities and I often think that neglecting them is actually a detriment to teams.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
If I wanted to be an offensive character, I'd be a scrapper or a brute or a mastermind or anything else. I looked at the list of ATs and chose Tank because I wanted to survive anything the game had to throw at me.
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The Tanker AT can withstand a battle of attrition, however sometimes the team can not. A lot of times, simply removing the threat outright is the best solution to keeping a team safe.
So while Tankers do not do Scrapper or Brute level damage, severe underslotting of attacks and overslotting of defense/resistance toggles isn't something I would recommend either (not that you do this, I don't think I've seen any of your personal builds).
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Hey, never said I didn't have faith in you. Your comment just sounded like this:
"Ok, so you can walk a tightrope a thousand feet in the air, but I do it without a safety net." Sure, you can both do the same thing and you're both probably just as good at walking tightropes, and you might even get across faster, but one of you is smart enough to have a safety net. Just in case. |
My Brutes and Scrappers feel "heroic" every time I'm doing something that I know is at the bleeding edge of what the AT can actually do.
However, when I'm standing there in the center of a giant mess of enemies with all of my toggles running and my AoEs going off - and I have some Blaster, Dom, or Corr, etc., standing right next to me going nova in an effort to kill everything before it kills us - My opinion of which one of us is more "heroic" is definitely not my nearly unkillable wrecking ball.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I didn't mean to say that there is something wrong with building an offensive tank. I'm simply a "play to the strengths" kind of guy. In my opinion, if you what you want is offense, make a scrapper. I wanted character that could stand at the gates of hell, so I found the toughest AT I could start with, the strongest looking powersets, and built more defense on top of that.
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I look at tankers and I think, their greatest strength is the ease in which you can attain survivability, this in turn allows huge flexibility to increase Recharge and leverage what attacks you do get to the most benefit for yourself and your team.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I plan to make a scrapper that does the opposite. He'll be Fire/Fire/Fire, loaded down with offensive bonuses, and survive just long enough for Rise of the Phoenix to recharge.
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A friend of mine in game has a similar build philosophy as you, he much prefers specialist ATs and heavily specializing them in that particular strength.
I don't like building that way and work to mitigate weaknesses as much as possible while retaining and capitalizing on as much of the primary strength of the AT as possible. It's probably why overall for melee, I prefer Brutes over both Tankers and Scrappers even though both ATs outclass Brutes in their respective specialties.
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Plus, the other extreme, the "Dark Knight" or berzerker type, he has capabilities the brick doesn't have. He can be stealthy or fast, able to take initiative faster than the brick. He may have lower defenses, but have a more feral fighting style that gives him feat bonuses. Or, he may have the precision and speed to keep up with and hit agile foes that the brick can't hold down. The encounter can be tailored to the weaknesses of the brick in order to give the "scrapper" the advantage. (And vice versa) |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
The point is, in a pen and paper game, there are plenty of things a "brick," or as I would call him, a fighter, cannot do. This is the balance.
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In CoH you have no such option. The Scrapper takes all these options of stealth, initiative and agility and just turns it into raw damage. The Critical is supposed to represent that, but not to the extent of the Stalker, so it just becomes an overall higher damage base.
As for designing a Tanker around dealing damage, well, while I can understand the PoV that you are trying to make the Tanker do something it's not intended to do, at the same time, as has been mentioned the damage of a Tanker is not that bad. NO MELEER in general has bad damage. Meleers HAVE to be good at damage, because they have to survive in melee, taking greater damage from their foes. This is one reason why Blasters and Defenders can be so frustrating, ranged damage just simply doesn't compete with melee damage. Blasters often have to become Blappers to be damage dealers, and Defenders rarely have the capability at all, unless stacked in force multiplier teams.
When it comes to damage dealing, the Tanker is comfortably middle of the road, Defenders, Masterminds, and Controllers all do less damage, and Dominators used to do less without Domination. I would argue that a Corruptor's damage potential is just about the same as a Tanker's, solo. The Tanker is certainly not going to contribute a lot of damage to a team, but the point of boosting a Tanker's damage is to make it easier to solo. On a team, you don't NEED damage.
And really, it's not like it's useful to be sitting there spending your Endurance whiffing at your foes and just taunting them. The damage you deal to the foes you taunt contributes to the team, even if it isn't the highest damage on the team. It's not like you can't have two builds now, one built for offense and one for defense, and tailor them to the size and makeup of the team. Specialization is fine, but it's usually more efficient to strike a balance between offense and defense.
yes i do have a fire/fire and i have two builds
build one is a farm build based on resistance,recovery,recharge and acc
the 2nd one is all about defense/team build'
both are hella exspensive as well so be warned.im a total fire tanker junky ..lemme see if i can find my mids builds
edit* found em..
first one is the farm build..and yes before anyone tells me its overkill or their not worth the money...im more then aware of my ocd in fire tanks thanks
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.81
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
servere farm/solo build: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blazing Aura
- (A) Fury of the Gladiator - Accuracy/Damage
- (3) Fury of the Gladiator - Damage/Recharge
- (3) Fury of the Gladiator - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (5) Fury of the Gladiator - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (5) Fury of the Gladiator - Accuracy/Damage/End/Rech
- (7) Fury of the Gladiator - Chance for Res Debuff
Level 1: Scorch- (A) Accuracy IO
Level 2: Fire Shield- (A) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance
- (7) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist
- (9) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance/Rech/End
- (9) Resist Damage IO
Level 4: Healing Flames- (A) Panacea - Heal/Endurance
- (11) Panacea - Endurance/Recharge
- (11) Panacea - Hea/Recharge
- (13) Panacea - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (13) Panacea - Heal
Level 6: Combustion- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (15) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (15) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (17) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (17) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
Level 8: Consume- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (19) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (19) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (21) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (21) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
Level 10: Combat Jumping- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
Level 12: Plasma Shield- (A) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance
- (23) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance/Rech/End
- (25) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist
- (25) Resist Damage IO
Level 14: Super Jump- (A) Jumping IO
Level 16: Swift- (A) Run Speed IO
Level 18: Health- (A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
- (23) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
- (27) Miracle - +Recovery
Level 20: Stamina- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (27) Performance Shifter - EndMod
- (29) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
Level 22: Burn- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (29) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (31) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (31) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (31) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
Level 24: Boxing- (A) Absolute Amazement - Endurance/Stun
- (33) Absolute Amazement - Chance for ToHit Debuff
Level 26: Tough- (A) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance
- (33) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance/Rech/End
- (33) Gladiator's Armor - End/Resist
- (34) Resist Damage IO
Level 28: Weave- (A) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +3% Res (All)
- (34) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (34) Luck of the Gambler - Endurance/Recharge
- (36) Kismet - Accuracy +6%
Level 30: Fire Sword Circle- (A) Armageddon - Damage
- (36) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge
- (36) Armageddon - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (37) Armageddon - Accuracy/Recharge
- (37) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
Level 32: Fiery Embrace- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (37) Recharge Reduction IO
- (39) Recharge Reduction IO
Level 35: Incinerate- (A) Gladiator's Strike - Accuracy/Damage
- (39) Gladiator's Strike - Damage/Recharge
- (39) Gladiator's Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (40) Gladiator's Strike - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (40) Gladiator's Strike - Accuracy/Damage/End/Rech
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword- (A) Hecatomb - Damage
- (40) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
- (42) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (42) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Recharge
- (42) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
Level 41: Ring of Fire- (A) Gravitational Anchor - Immobilize
- (43) Gravitational Anchor - Immobilize/Recharge
- (43) Gravitational Anchor - Accuracy/Immobilize/Recharge
- (43) Gravitational Anchor - Accuracy/Recharge
- (45) Gravitational Anchor - Immobilize/Endurance
Level 44: Melt Armor- (A) Analyze Weakness - Defense Debuff
- (45) Analyze Weakness - Accuracy/Defense Debuff
- (45) Analyze Weakness - Accuracy/Recharge
- (46) Analyze Weakness - Defense Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
- (46) Analyze Weakness - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (46) Analyze Weakness - Chance for +ToHit
Level 47: Fire Ball- (A) Ragnarok - Damage
- (48) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
- (48) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (48) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Recharge
- (50) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
Level 49: Build Up- (A) HamiO:Membrane Exposure
- (50) HamiO:Membrane Exposure
- (50) HamiO:Membrane Exposure
------------Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint- (A) Empty
Level 2: Rest- (A) Empty
Level 1: GauntletLevel 4: Ninja Run
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Set Bonus Totals:
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my 2nd one is a defensive/team oriented build.im close to soft cap and yeah i know its not 45% but im pretty good with it until alpha slot puts me over the edge
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.81
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blazing Aura
- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (3) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (3) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (5) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (5) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (7) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
Level 1: Scorch- (A) Accuracy IO
Level 2: Fire Shield- (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (7) Reactive Armor - Resistance
- (9) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge
- (9) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (31) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
- (39) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
Level 4: Healing Flames- (A) Miracle - Heal/Endurance
- (11) Miracle - Endurance/Recharge
- (11) Miracle - Heal/Recharge
- (13) Miracle - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (13) Miracle - Heal
Level 6: Combustion- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (15) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (15) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (17) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (17) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (19) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
Level 8: Consume- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (19) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (21) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (21) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (23) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (23) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
Level 10: Taunt- (A) Perfect Zinger - Taunt
- (25) Perfect Zinger - Taunt/Recharge
- (25) Perfect Zinger - Taunt/Recharge/Range
- (27) Perfect Zinger - Accuracy/Recharge
- (27) Perfect Zinger - Taunt/Range
- (29) Perfect Zinger - Chance for Psi Damage
Level 12: Plasma Shield- (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (29) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge
- (31) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (31) Reactive Armor - Resistance
- (33) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
Level 14: Combat Jumping- (A) Karma - Knockback Protection
Level 16: Super Jump- (A) Springfoot - Jumping
Level 18: Burn- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (33) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (33) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (34) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (34) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (34) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
Level 20: Swift- (A) Run Speed IO
Level 22: Health- (A) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
Level 24: Stamina- (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
- (36) Performance Shifter - EndMod
- (36) Endurance Modification IO
Level 26: Boxing- (A) Accuracy IO
Level 28: Tough- (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (36) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge
- (37) Reactive Armor - Resistance
- (37) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (37) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
Level 30: Weave- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (39) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (39) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
Level 32: Build Up- (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
- (40) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge
- (40) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance
- (40) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance
- (42) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
- (42) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
Level 35: Fire Sword Circle- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (42) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (43) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (43) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (43) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (45) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
Level 38: Incinerate- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (45) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (45) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (46) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (46) Kinetic Combat - Knockdown Bonus
Level 41: Greater Fire Sword- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (46) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (48) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (48) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (48) Kinetic Combat - Knockdown Bonus
Level 44: Conserve Power- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
Level 47: Physical Perfection- (A) Miracle - +Recovery
- (50) Miracle - Heal
- (50) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
Level 49: Fiery Embrace- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (50) Recharge Reduction IO
------------Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint- (A) Empty
Level 2: Rest- (A) Empty
Level 1: GauntletLevel 4: Ninja Run
------------
Set Bonus Totals: