I am not a marketeer, but I don't think you are hurting the market per se.
You are probably a big source of any marketeers later product though.
I similarly post my commons so I make no less than what I would selling them at an enhancement store. Which is still darn cheap by a lot of going rates, but above the level that a lot of grabby bids lurk at 1, 5, and 20.
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It's a habit I have too. I list almost everything at 10inf. Sells quicker that way and I tend to have enough money to go around.
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You are not hurting the market in any way. I dont even think youre hurting yourself either. In fact I would dare say the vast majority of players that use the market to sell do that. I do as well (even on rare salvage)|
Originally Posted by BigBlueMachine
A legitimate question to all the Marketeers.
So for the last several issues worth of time I've established a habit which has left every last character I've ever made completely worry free for INF till it's time to start IOing said character (usually around 30). My habit being to sell every non orange piece of salvage I find for 1 single INF regardless of selling price and time of the day/week (I just save the oranges till aforementioned IOing time or I find one worth more pretty pennies than I can turn my head at). So is my market habits a bad thing to the greater good of the Market or does it not matter in the least? A sincere question to all of the Economic geniuses found here. I would like to know if what I've been doing to make things easier on myself is/has in some way potentially made something worse for someone else. To those who think "I'm doing it wrong because I could making SOOOO MUCH more" or some such. Please don't reply in thread, I've never tried to max it out and don't care to ... I've only tried to alleviate my preIOing INF needs, nothing more. Thanks in advance! |
Theres only one true resource in this game...time. Everything comes down to that. Ill put cheap salvage on the market, but I want it to move. I dont want to waste time looking up going rates, who cares about the 22k I could have made from that ancient bone when its tying up a slot that could make 10 million (or much more) from a single transaction. I feel like Im doing a good thing for the community when I do but more likely Im just feeding a flipper. Which in itself is a good thing because it keeps him flipping there instead of moving on to somewhere he can make real fake moola.
Do what you want, the market will sort it out
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Every once in a while I read about someone who thinks dumping any salvage on the market for 1 INF is "dumb" because it's worth so much more when you sell it for the "proper values" as dictated by the NPC vendors. It's as if they think they are going to get rich nickle-n-diming that kind of thing. |
Originally Posted by BigBlueMachine
My habit being to sell every non orange piece of salvage I find for 1 single INF regardless of selling price and time of the day/week (I just save the oranges till aforementioned IOing time or I find one worth more pretty pennies than I can turn my head at).
So is my market habits a bad thing to the greater good of the Market or does it not matter in the least? |
I have dumped common salvage on the market for 1 INF for years. According to the nickle-n-dimers I have gravely hurt myself doing that. In reality of course I've actually earned so much INF across all my characters (via other methods) that I've not only purple IO'd many builds but I've given billions of INF away to other players or burned it converting it to Prestige with billions to spare. If I've "hurt" myself dumping common salvage then I certainly haven't suffered much.
I'm sure there are people out there who've made fortunes flipping common salvage and if I've technically helped those people do that then more power to them. I've got mine my way so they can get theirs their way. *shrugs*
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
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I also sell at 1 Inf, all the time.
Except Nevermelting Ice, while the 'Goat was messing with them. I listed one at a million, as a test.
It worked.
Thanks, Goat!
My stock price for stuff I am just dumping is 109 inf. Because if I go to 110, the listing fee moves from 5 to 6 inf, and...
AAAAARGH! NO! NEVER!
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
My reply is going to end up being a bit philosophical so I hope you will bear with me.
When one refers to the market one is either referrring to the GUI or to the actual working system that the market entails. Most of the time it is that system we refer to more than the actual GUI of the market and that is what I am going to focus on in my response.
No one can hurt the market in any form of participating in the market. For you see, the users of the market: bidders, listers, buyers and sellers, are all part of the market.
You could just as well ask if the toe hurts the body.
The only form of activity that actually would hurt the market would be actions that prevent the market from working mechanically. So if you could crash the market by your actions, then you would hurt the market.
So carry on in your market activities for there is a place for all of us: the flippers, the buy it NAO crowd, the sell it NAO crowd, etc.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
The effect you have is 'negative' in the sense that, if you instead listed rare salvage for say 300k or 800k ( something above usual lowball bids but below normal sale points ), you would benefit casual players that have the patience to bid creep (also flippers that operate in that price range, but you can try listing above it).
By listing at such a low price you are tossing away supply to the immediate buyers that are lowballing things at prices that are way too low usually. They will turn around and flip it up to normal prices. If you priced between those two points - then people could buy at lower than going rates and above flipper prices. This would have a normalizing effect on price over time, if enough people participated in that niche.
The people that chuck stuff up that cheap are the ones that create wild variation in price points. If everyone listed at more reasonable prices, we'd all be paying less for salvages.
In the long run though, no you aren't hurting the market because one person can't overcome the tide of others that will mess up pricing by listing too low.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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...you mean, like the appendix?
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
You could just as well ask if the toe hurts the body.
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I'm confused by this, and by extension how flipping works I guess. Surely if I list something at 1 inf then the person who is bidding the most will get it, not someone lowballing.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
By listing at such a low price you are tossing away supply to the immediate buyers that are lowballing things at prices that are way too low usually. They will turn around and flip it up to normal prices. If you priced between those two points - then people could buy at lower than going rates and above flipper prices. This would have a normalizing effect on price over time, if enough people participated in that niche.
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Which leads me to wonder how flipping works. The flipper buys it and relists it higher than he paid for it? This can only work on markets with low supply right? And the flipper would have to buy up a good portion of it?
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People only charge "unreasonable" prices because there are people willing to pay that much.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
By listing at such a low price you are tossing away supply to the immediate buyers that are lowballing things at prices that are way too low usually. They will turn around and flip it up to normal prices. If you priced between those two points - then people could buy at lower than going rates and above flipper prices. This would have a normalizing effect on price over time, if enough people participated in that niche.
The people that chuck stuff up that cheap are the ones that create wild variation in price points. If everyone listed at more reasonable prices, we'd all be paying less for salvages. |
It's a classic chicken-and-egg situation.
The market is already normalized between the extremes of the "buy it NAO" crowd and the "sell it NAO" crowd and facilitated by the flippers who eek out a profit catering to these two core groups of people. Any notions of value that don't take this reality into account are artificial at best. This is why prices will never "average out" to the middle because there are never going to be enough people participating in that niche you mentioned.
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Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
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--{=====> Virtue ♀
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This is exactly how I list my salvage. I am aiming specifically to overshoot the price flippers might be sweeping at and undershoot the current peak prices.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
The effect you have is 'negative' in the sense that, if you instead listed rare salvage for say 300k or 800k ( something above usual lowball bids but below normal sale points ), you would benefit casual players that have the patience to bid creep (also flippers that operate in that price range, but you can try listing above it).
|
Note that I spend very little brainpower in this. If prices have been under 1000, I usually list for a very low price, but over 10 inf. If prices are "high", I list for some pseudo-standard price I think might be over what flippers are buying at.
Probably about 1/3 of the time, I still sell at the "high" price. Maybe about 1/6 of the time, I still sell to what might be a flipper, based on multiple sales at unusual, "fingerprint-y" prices like 1367. Probably about 1/2 of the time I sell at some "round" or easily typed number just above what I listed at. This last case is actually what I'm shooting for.
I just like the idea of seeding the market with deals for people who are interested in looking for a good (but not crazy good) deal. If I list super low, my "deals" are too easily eaten, and if I list too high, they aren't really a "deal".
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It's actually a bit more complicated than this. The big-time flippers are actually paying attention to the natural rises and falls in prices throughout the courses of typical days and weeks. Depending on what time it is there are more or less people playing which means there are cycles of when there is more or less supply of things on the market. The master flippers know when to grab things by adjusting their "lowball" bids according to these cycles. |
Originally Posted by Diggis
I'm confused by this, and by extension how flipping works I guess. Surely if I list something at 1 inf then the person who is bidding the most will get it, not someone lowballing.
Which leads me to wonder how flipping works. The flipper buys it and relists it higher than he paid for it? This can only work on markets with low supply right? And the flipper would have to buy up a good portion of it? |
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--{=====> Virtue ♀
No flippers buy low and sell at normal prices.
Manipulators buy low and list higher than normal prices.
Listing at 1 or some low value like that will immediately sell to the highest bidder - that IS correct. The part you are missing is that at any given time the highest bidder is very likely to be a lowballer with outstanding bids much lower than the last 5.
If someone instead listed at 600-700k (any value will do as long as it's above the lowball bids and below the going rate) then people could bid creep up to 600k and get the salvage for much less than 1.2-2m.
This won't happen because people are lazy and don't bid creep. That's what happens when the majority of players have play money that prints itself.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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Yep. Three plus years ago when we were discussing this the term applied was "temporal arbitrage" where we buy during the surplus low price times and sell during the drought low supply high demand times that occur naturally over the course of a week.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
It's actually a bit more complicated than this. The big-time flippers are actually paying attention to the natural rises and falls in prices throughout the courses of typical days and weeks. Depending on what time it is there are more or less people playing which means there are cycles of when there is more or less supply of things on the market. The master flippers know when to grab things by adjusting their "lowball" bids according to these cycles.
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This led to numerous thread derailments over the technical meaning of arbitrage and much arguing completely ignoring the reality of what was being explained to people. Patient bidding/selling saves/makes inf.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I have no problem putting this much consideration into it when I'm buying or selling rare salvage. But for common/uncommon salvage (say anything going for less than 100,000 INF) I typically don't care how much I pay for it or sell it for. To me that price range is like "petty cash" that doesn't affect my bottom line much one way or the other. I buy/sell/craft recipes for multiple millions every day so toying around with trivial salvage doesn't interest me. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This is exactly how I list my salvage. I am aiming specifically to overshoot the price flippers might be sweeping at and undershoot the current peak prices.
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Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
Right, that makes some sense to me. However, to bid over the lowball bids you have to know what they are and if they aren't in the last 5 you are guessing. If it's a low value item (most whites) I have no problem with that. If it's a higer value item I tend to post a higher value on it, although probably still lower than the lowballers.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
No flippers buy low and sell at normal prices.
Manipulators buy low and list higher than normal prices. Listing at 1 or some low value like that will immediately sell to the highest bidder - that IS correct. The part you are missing is that at any given time the highest bidder is very likely to be a lowballer with outstanding bids much lower than the last 5. If someone instead listed at 600-700k (any value will do as long as it's above the lowball bids and below the going rate) then people could bid creep up to 600k and get the salvage for much less than 1.2-2m. This won't happen because people are lazy and don't bid creep. That's what happens when the majority of players have play money that prints itself. |
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Yep. Three plus years ago when we were discussing this the term applied was "temporal arbitrage" where we buy during the surplus low price times and sell during the drought low supply high demand times that occur naturally over the course of a week.
This led to numerous thread derailments over the technical meaning of arbitrage and much arguing completely ignoring the reality of what was being explained to people. Patient bidding/selling saves/makes inf. |
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That's about how I see it. I see them as a 7-11 and a big box store. If I don't want to wait, I pay the higher prices of a convenience store. If I have a plan and some patience I'll bid @ big box store prices and wait. I am willing in game as well as IRL to pay for convenience when convenience is what I want.
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Originally Posted by Diggis
K, that makes sense to me. So a flipper doesn't immediatly flip, but waits for demand to go up. Makes sense to me. And if they are willing to hold my item for me untill I need it I'm ok paying them a small fee for storage.
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Keep in mind what I posted a flipper could do or a patient buyer/seller could also do it.|
Originally Posted by Diggis
Right, that makes some sense to me. However, to bid over the lowball bids you have to know what they are and if they aren't in the last 5 you are guessing. If it's a low value item (most whites) I have no problem with that. If it's a higer value item I tend to post a higher value on it, although probably still lower than the lowballers.
K, that makes sense to me. So a flipper doesn't immediatly flip, but waits for demand to go up. Makes sense to me. And if they are willing to hold my item for me untill I need it I'm ok paying them a small fee for storage. |
Flippers make their inf off the impatience of others.
Three plus years ago I had to be patient on every move because I didn't have more than 20 million influence among all my characters but now I have more than 7 billion so I can afford to buy/sell it NAO because my characters make enough even selling at lower prices to afford buying at higher prices.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Totally. As All Hell said above really. It tends to depend on the value to me. Over 10k... I'll bid creep or wait for a while. Under that I'll just pay really. Don't have billions (or even 1 billion probably) but I do have enough to support my habit.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Keep in mind what I posted a flipper could do or a patient buyer/seller could also do it.
Flippers make their inf off the impatience of others. Three plus years ago I had to be patient on every move because I didn't have more than 20 million influence among all my characters but now I have more than 7 billion so I can afford to buy/sell it NAO because my characters make enough even selling at lower prices to afford buying at higher prices. |
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You'll get there.|
Originally Posted by Diggis
Totally. As All Hell said above really. It tends to depend on the value to me. Over 10k... I'll bid creep or wait for a while. Under that I'll just pay really. Don't have billions (or even 1 billion probably) but I do have enough to support my habit.
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I remember I used to watch Nethergoat's posts where his "same as 0 amount" went from 10k to 50k to 100k to 500k. I used to marvel at where he was at and then I slowly crept up on him.
I am around 5 million before I decide to check myself and decide if I really want to buy it now but that took years because I didn't do the marketeer stuff I just used the knowledge of how it works to help me buy and sell.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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If you do a lot of flipping, then you get a good feel for price ranges quite quickly. At the very least, when your low-ball bid stacks stop filling, it's time to raise the price. (Which is why active flipping in a niche tends to close the gap between high and low prices.)|
Originally Posted by Diggis
Right, that makes some sense to me. However, to bid over the lowball bids you have to know what they are and if they aren't in the last 5 you are guessing. If it's a low value item (most whites) I have no problem with that. If it's a higer value item I tend to post a higher value on it, although probably still lower than the lowballers.
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Originally Posted by Diggis
K, that makes sense to me. So a flipper doesn't immediatly flip, but waits for demand to go up. Makes sense to me.
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You have to remember, for a lot of people, it isn't worth their time to wait a minute to see if a low bid will fill. Or even ten seconds. Or even to put in a low bid at all.
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The only way you can hurt the market is if you don't call it the day after a nice evening out.
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Quote:
Yep. Remember, I didn't describe how I buy salvage. That said, I almost never pay over 20k for common, high-level salvage. Whatever I was going to do with it, it's extremely uncommon that I need to do it right then, so if something I usually buy for 55 won't buy for 20k, I just leave the bid and come back later. I usually have it by the next mission unless something long-term is going on, like trick-or-treat this year.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I have no problem putting this much consideration into it when I'm buying or selling rare salvage. But for common/uncommon salvage (say anything going for less than 100,000 INF) I typically don't care how much I pay for it or sell it for. To me that price range is like "petty cash" that doesn't affect my bottom line much one way or the other. I buy/sell/craft recipes for multiple millions every day so toying around with trivial salvage doesn't interest me.
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My target for listing the way I do isn't most posters in this forum, really including even me. Hell, I don't even know for sure that my target buyers exist as a category the way I imagine them. But the way my stuff gets bought can be seen to reinforce the notion that they're out there, so I stick with it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
A legitimate question to all the Marketeers.
So for the last several issues worth of time I've established a habit which has left every last character I've ever made completely worry free for INF till it's time to start IOing said character (usually around 30).
My habit being to sell every non orange piece of salvage I find for 1 single INF regardless of selling price and time of the day/week (I just save the oranges till aforementioned IOing time or I find one worth more pretty pennies than I can turn my head at).
So is my market habits a bad thing to the greater good of the Market or does it not matter in the least?
A sincere question to all of the Economic geniuses found here. I would like to know if what I've been doing to make things easier on myself is/has in some way potentially made something worse for someone else.
To those who think "I'm doing it wrong because I could making SOOOO MUCH more" or some such. Please don't reply in thread, I've never tried to max it out and don't care to ... I've only tried to alleviate my preIOing INF needs, nothing more.
Thanks in advance!
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