On the nature of ebil and marketeering
By
1VB_FIST,
Posted on: 2010-11-13 21:46 in The Market and Inventions
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I'd say you're either doing something off-the-wall to amuse yourself in a game (crazy talk!), or you have an unhealthy fascination with Heath Ledger. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
what would you say to an entire SG dedicated to setting the world's supply of inf on fire?
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I see an extremely small number of people whining here about the system. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of the players do not visit the forums at all.|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
Engaging for you maybe. But judging from the complaints you hear about the Blind Bidding system it seems you are in the minority.
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The available evidence does not support your conclusion.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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nothing in this game is 'necessary'.|
Originally Posted by Intrinsic
That's warehousing, not T&D. Warehousing is a value-added prospect to the buyer only if it is a necessary service. Is warehousing necessary in CoH? That's an argument with no way to win.
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does it save buyers time by ensuring a ready supply at market rates?
yes, it absolutely does.
Time being the only real currency in the game makes that a valuable service.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Actually, I meant no way for me to win since I don't discuss strategies. I take that back though. Inventory space doesn't have to be unlimited. It simply doesn't have to be a constraint to supply.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
It's a no-way win only if you accept the absurd premise that inventory space isn't limited in CoH. Clearly it is, and the only possible way to truly maximize that storage involves complex accountant-like management of alternate characters' inventories.
Which is so involved that once you've crossed that line, you're no longer in the category of players who can complain with a straight face about so-called market manipulations. |
I offer this as evidence:
Thousands for sale. Low prices. No indication of any flipping activity. The primary sellers are willing to tie up hundreds, maybe thousands, of market slots on a single type of cheap salvage. This particular one is a prime example, but it's not the only one. And keep in mind, this is during an economy that has been ravaged by AE exploits. A couple of months ago, I could have pointed to even more examples in common and uncommon salvage. This does not look like a market that is constrained by inventory. By all appearances, warehousing is not a needed service. And there is no value added by an unneeded warehousing service.
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I'm not sure what relevance junk nobody wants or needs has to the current discussion.
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Originally Posted by Intrinsic
By all appearances, warehousing is not a needed service. And there is no value added by an unneeded warehousing service.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
How does Flippers helps sell stuff faster? They raise the price and that makes things sell better? Interesting economics that. I mean they buy it cheap then relist at a higher price and that makes the economy work better? Please show me how that benefits anyone (except the flipper)? It reduces supply because capital is more expensive (thus making it harder to acquire). How does making capital harder to acquire make the economy work better, this I really got to see.
That fact is if everyone flipped (rent seeking) instead of farmed the market would collapse . That is undeniable. Flipping means manipulating the market is more profitable then expanding the market. Flipping only works because other people farm to provide the supply. Flippers stand in the way between buyers and sellers because they are not needed. It's funny how they say "we don't increase the prices!" yet will have threads where they gloat about the billions they make from doing that very thing (just for the record I am not poor in CoH). It's almost Goldman Sachs like in it's audacity.
Even wondered how Goldman Sachs makes so much money every when the US economy is tanking? There primary sources of revenue are rent seeking.
If we had open sale prices (and buying prices too for those who asked) it would give everyone better market knowledge. The more secretive a market is the more potential there is for abuse (see the derivatives market). It's funny a lot of the excuses I see from people here are the same excuses Goldman Sachs uses too justify it's profits (oh we are stabilizing the price, we are helping allocate capital more effectively).
They ring just as hollow here.
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I can get it without the flipper there. The only difference is without the flipper it's cheaper.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
flippers add value by ensuring what you want is there when you want it- temporal value, if you will. If you *want* to tie up a slot and wait a while to get a 'deal', that option is there. If your slots and time are worth more to you than a negligible inf savings, the flipper is there to ensure you can get your widget NAO at market rates.
In a game environment where time is the only 'currency' with real value, that's an important service. |
The IO was there before the flipper got there. Every middleman you add just adds to the price.
Get rid of the middleman save $$$.
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
I can get it without the flipper there. The only difference is without the flipper it's cheaper.
The IO was there before the flipper got there. Every middleman you add just adds to the price. Get rid of the middleman save $$$. |
Believe what you will. Nothing is stopping you from bidding 1 more than a flipper and getting it at the same price he's paying...
The reality is, at a given point in time of a flipper making a transaction he is the one willing to pay the most (helping out the seller) and willing to sell for the lowest (helping out the buyer). How is this bad? Most people look at the price they pay and think the flipper is bad...how about the price consumer sells for? You realize the flippers propping that up right?
Honestly I think the flipper has a nuetral effect on the market but I have no way to prove it. Maybe things move a decimal point if the flipper isnt involved but that would happen on both sides of the balance sheet so its a wash.
Also dont forget by adding a transaction in the middle the flipper burns more inf and helps fight inflation....which keeps all prices down.
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When's the last time you bought anything in real life knowing exactly how much it cost?|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
When is the last time you bought something in real life without knowing exactly how much it cost?
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Because I will bet you dollars to donuts, you haven't the faintest idea. You're mistaking prices people pay for costs.
Oh, and comparisons to real world marketplaces - particularly regarding what's 'good' for the market - that base themselves on real-world comparisons of essential services rather than luxuries are all fundamentally flawed.
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I suppose it's not 'necessary' for me to have slots open on the market for my more valuable items to sell and to bid on the items I would rather have. But having the slots open is sure something that I desire and find value in. Perhaps some people have no better use for their slots than to have salvage sitting in them. I strongly suspect that many people can come up with a better use of their slots than to hold a piece of salvage for sale.
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Originally Posted by Intrinsic
That's warehousing, not T&D. Warehousing is a value-added prospect to the buyer only if it is a necessary service. Is warehousing necessary in CoH? That's an argument with no way to win.
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flipping and manipulating/cornering are not the same thing. Flipping works within the bounds of normal sale prices. Lets say common salvage X sells between 1k and 50k normally. A flipper will come along and buy at 100inf then relist it in the 1k-50k range, keeping supply available in the normal price range. The person that sold to the flipper is not helping supply because the salvage disappears before normal range bidders get a chance at it. Flippers ensure that items move at a higher floor, they raise the low bar to a respectable level that encourages stable supply.|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
How does Flippers helps sell stuff faster? They raise the price and that makes things sell better? Interesting economics that. I mean they buy it cheap then relist at a higher price and that makes the economy work better? Please show me how that benefits anyone (except the flipper)? It reduces supply because capital is more expensive (thus making it harder to acquire). How does making capital harder to acquire make the economy work better, this I really got to see.
That fact is if everyone flipped (rent seeking) instead of farmed the market would collapse . That is undeniable. Flipping means manipulating the market is more profitable then expanding the market. Flipping only works because other people farm to provide the supply. Flippers stand in the way between buyers and sellers because they are not needed. It's funny how they say "we don't increase the prices!" yet will have threads where they gloat about the billions they make from doing that very thing (just for the record I am not poor in CoH). It's almost Goldman Sachs like in it's audacity. Even wondered how Goldman Sachs makes so much money every when the US economy is tanking? There primary sources of revenue are rent seeking. If we had open sale prices (and buying prices too for those who asked) it would give everyone better market knowledge. The more secretive a market is the more potential there is for abuse (see the derivatives market). It's funny a lot of the excuses I see from people here are the same excuses Goldman Sachs uses too justify it's profits (oh we are stabilizing the price, we are helping allocate capital more effectively). They ring just as hollow here. |
If no flippers existed then there would never be any salvage available. Why ? Because if everyone listed at 1inf the salvages would sell instantly and then you would always have to wait in line to get salvage. The flippers prevent things from being unavailable due to dumb people listing too low.
People like you are completely ridiculous. One : the market is not a store, two : the market is pvp. You cannot moan and groan about not getting everything for 1 inf. You cannot reasonably prove that flippers cause a rise in price while supply is completely bonkers due to AE issues.
You want a real world example here: Wal-mart. They buy at wholesale and resell things at a higher price to customers. Those 'higher prices' happen to be lower than most competitors prices. Wal-mart flips goods. The real life issue is that other people can't compete with Wal-mart because they can't get goods at low prices as easily.
In CoH, however, you can compete with joe Wal-Marty and take his low priced goods for slightly higher than he is paying. Joe bids 100 you bid 101. This is the simple math that shows how you fail at CoH markets.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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Yes but the fact is if the flipper wants to make a profit his relisted price HAS to be higher then the price he bought it for. No matter how you slice it the flipper makes the IO cost more.
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Originally Posted by Frogfather
Believe what you will. Nothing is stopping you from bidding 1 more than a flipper and getting it at the same price he's paying...
The reality is, at a given point in time of a flipper making a transaction he is the one willing to pay the most (helping out the seller) and willing to sell for the lowest (helping out the buyer). How is this bad? Most people look at the price they pay and think the flipper is bad...how about the price consumer sells for? You realize the flippers propping that up right? Honestly I think the flipper has a nuetral effect on the market but I have no way to prove it. Maybe things move a decimal point if the flipper isnt involved but that would happen on both sides of the balance sheet so its a wash. Also dont forget by adding a transaction in the middle the flipper burns more inf and helps fight inflation....which keeps all prices down. |
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LOL This is gold.|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
flipping and manipulating/cornering are not the same thing. Flipping works within the bounds of normal sale prices. Lets say common salvage X sells between 1k and 50k normally. A flipper will come along and buy at 100inf then relist it in the 1k-50k range, keeping supply available in the normal price range. The person that sold to the flipper is not helping supply because the salvage disappears before normal range bidders get a chance at it. Flippers ensure that items move at a higher floor, they raise the low bar to a respectable level that encourages stable supply.
If no flippers existed then there would never be any salvage available. Why ? Because if everyone listed at 1inf the salvages would sell instantly and then you would always have to wait in line to get salvage. The flippers prevent things from being unavailable due to dumb people listing too low. People like you are completely ridiculous. One : the market is not a store, two : the market is pvp. You cannot moan and groan about not getting everything for 1 inf. You cannot reasonably prove that flippers cause a rise in price while supply is completely bonkers due to AE issues. You want a real world example here: Wal-mart. They buy at wholesale and resell things at a higher price to customers. Those 'higher prices' happen to be lower than most competitors prices. Wal-mart flips goods. The real life issue is that other people can't compete with Wal-mart because they can't get goods at low prices as easily. In CoH, however, you can compete with joe Wal-Marty and take his low priced goods for slightly higher than he is paying. Joe bids 100 you bid 101. This is the simple math that shows how you fail at CoH markets. |
Apparently flippers are doing you a favour by making salvage cost more (even though other people say flippers don't raise prices). Thank you you flippers lol!
The fact is if all salvage went for 1 inf and there was none on the AH the price would go up. The price wouldn't stay at 1 inf. You can see this all the time with IOs which aren't being manipulated. The market does not not need flippers.
Nothing wrong with supply and demand prices but why do we need flippers in between? The market can take can of itself it is not helped (in fact it is detrimental) to have flippers involved in the transaction process. They are a pointless middleman who adds to the price of IOs while providing zero benefit.
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| If no flippers existed then there would never be any salvage available. |
Your argument boils down to 'wa wa wa I cant buy everything at 1 inf' .
You completely fail to understand how things work. If the normal price range of something is 4 -7 million but you have a pile of people listing for 10-15 million and a pile of people listing at 1 inf what is likely to happen ? Flippers will notice this niche and come in to place bids in the 100 inf - 2m range. Next they will sell at the 3-6m price marks. Within a weeks time the IO that used to go for 10 -15 million has dropped in price down to its normal value of 4-7m.
The discount prices below 4 million are lazy people selling too low and should not happen if people were selling at proper value. The flippers are profiting off of lazy people, and guess what you can too! Simply find out what price the flippers are buying at and bid higher.
What will happen if people like you stopped just whining and played market pvp like they are supposed to ? The floor on that IO would get closer and closer to 4 million, until it hits around 3.3 - 3.6m and stops being profitable enough for flippers to bother with. At that point the value of the floor drops again until flippers come back.
The price floor is NOT THE VALUE OF THE IO. The price ceiling IS NOT THE VALUE OF THE IO. The value of the IO is somewhere in the middle. That is the price that market go'ers have settled on. Anything below that price is a discount that you are not remotely entitled to.
How do I know this is true ? In the past week I've dropped prices on positron's blast,doctored wounds and regenerative tissue uniques.
Flippers would not exist if people were not lazy. If people were not lazy, all items would be priced within 5%-15% of the proper price for the given item. If buyers were not lazy and did not over pay, prices would not rise very fast, if at all.
Because of lazy sellers and lazy buyers, flippers are needed to stabilize the prices to their actual values.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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Yes, and if he wants to sell it, his listing price has to be the lowest at a given point in time. That's what we call adding stability. What's endlessly fascinating to me is that for years, the Red-side market was about ten times more prone to market manipulation because there was so little participation there -- and yet, most of the prominent marketeers in this forum avoided the Red-side market, or at least criticized it here.|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
Yes but the fact is if the flipper wants to make a profit his relisted price HAS to be higher then the price he bought it for. No matter how you slice it the flipper makes the IO cost more.
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Why? Because a market with more participation is a healthier market. A healthier market is better for buyers and sellers alike.
"Blah, blah, blah, Goldman Sachs," is not a convincing argument. It's ugly, emotionally charged innuendo that has no place in a discussion about a fictional market using fictional money. What's more, it's a fictional market in a game that doesn't require any of the expensive items on the market.
But then, Talen said it better than I could.
Rant and rave and scream all you like about how flippers increase prices. In the short term, they do. But to deny that an increase in prices doesn't encourage more sellers is to deny the truth that's staring you in the face. And to deny that you have exactly the same capacity that flippers do to buy low (namely, patience) is to deny yourself the rightful price points to which you apparently believe yourself entitled.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
Yes but the fact is if the flipper wants to make a profit his relisted price HAS to be higher then the price he bought it for. No matter how you slice it the flipper makes the IO cost more.
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Actually....and maybe this is just me but I know I cause the price to be less on IOs.
More flippers always cause the price of the sales floor to rise sure, and the sales ceiling to lower. When the flippers all abandon ship on crafted IOs, the price ceiling rises. Every time Ive monitored it thats what happens. Sure the price floor drops for the patient but it rises for the impatient. And then the flippers move in again....rinse, lather, repeat
Once again, I ask you....whats stopping you from bidding one more than the flipper...or even less and waiting. The flipper is not omnipresent....he too only has so many slots. How does a flipper have any impact on your play?
The flipper does not raise the price for the "buy it nao" sorts even one iota. The flipper is making money off the difference between the patient and the impatient. So you want to make a case that the flipper raises the price for the patient, thats fine...but if theyre truly patient then the flipper wouldnt bother their pocketbook anyhow.
Im not advocating the flipper is a hero like some, but be reasonable about his impact and youll see its almost neglible
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Why would it?|
Originally Posted by Lohenien
You completely fail to understand how things work. If the normal price range of something is 4 -7 million but you have a pile of people listing for 10-15 million and a pile of people listing at 1 inf what is likely to happen ? Flippers will notice this niche and come in to place bids in the 100 inf - 2m range. Next they will sell at the 3-6m price marks. Within a weeks time the IO that used to go for 10 -15 million has dropped in price down to its normal value of 4-7m.
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If there a low prices, medium prices and high prices how does turning the low prices into medium prices cause the high prices to fall? Please point out the economic principle that supports that.
You cause and effect has absolutely no link. You add 3-4 million to the lowest priced IOs and say it lowers the highest price?! All you have done is raise the average price.
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Correct. That's all you needed to say.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
In the short term, they do.
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My addition: And they do not lower the price in the long term.
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Originally Posted by Max_zero
Why would it?
If there a low prices, medium prices and high prices how does turning the low prices into medium prices cause the high prices to fall? Please point out the economic principle that supports that. You cause and effect has absolutely no link. You add 3-4 million to the lowest priced IOs and say it lowers the highest price?! All you have done is raise the average price. |
I dont know about economic principles...
But RE: Proof of Price Falling
Please go look at Regenrative Tissue Uniques Level 30, the crafted version. More flippers got involved and my fun niche went from 60 to 70 million to 40 million. Dont know why those dopes were paying 70M when I was listing at 50 and change but there you go. Dont worry about me though, Ill be fine....I ran that risk when I started this up....
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Yep.|
Originally Posted by Frogfather
The flipper is making money off the difference between the patient and the impatient.
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What they don't do is add anything to market.
The market does not need flippers. Rent seeking profit takers a bad no matter what market they are in.
If someone wants to flip, be my guest, but don't try to pass it off as if your helping someone or that your doing the market a service. You are basically harming the market to make a rent seeking profit.
Anyways I am out for tonight (different timezones and all) and I look forward to the many posts of how flippers try to convince people (maybe themselves?) they are useful.
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Just for the record I got around 14 Regenerative Tissue recipes through AE tickets and crafted and put them up at 70 mil.|
Originally Posted by Frogfather
I dont know about economic principles...
But RE: Proof of Price Falling Please go look at Regenrative Tissue Uniques Level 30, the crafted version. More flippers got involved and my fun niche went from 60 to 70 million to 40 million. Dont know why those dopes were paying 70M when I was listing at 50 and change but there you go. Dont worry about me though, Ill be fine....I ran that risk when I started this up.... |
If you check the amount for sale there is a bit of a glut of them. It's why the price dropped.
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That's cute. Selective editing for the win. What if I just posted your above quote with the 'not' edited out? |
Originally Posted by Max_zero
Correct. That's all you needed to say.
My addition: And they do not lower the price in the long term. |
Your addition has no reasoning to back it up. History, logic, and common sense all stand firmly against you. The game's mechanics stand against you, too. What part of "the lowest asking price fills the highest bid" don't you understand?
The flipper is called a flipper because he plays within the margin of error created by a lack of market activity. He can't simply decide what the prices are going to be. He has to have enough room and enough inactivity that he can sneak in the highest consistent bids and the lowest consistent listings to turn his market slots around in a timely fashion. This is all self-evident and irrefutable.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Like I said : normal range is 4-7m going rate is 10-15m. I buy at 1-2m and relist at 4.5m. Someone smart comes along and sees the last 5 in the 10-15 million range, but instead of just forking over 10-15m that person tries to bid creep. First that try a lowball 2 million, I bought all of the 2 million ones so there are none of those left. Next he ups his bid to 3 million. Still no dice. So he ups to 5 million and ding! He buys my IO for 5 million.|
Originally Posted by Max_zero
Why would it?
If there a low prices, medium prices and high prices how does turning the low prices into medium prices cause the high prices to fall? Please point out the economic principle that supports that. You cause and effect has absolutely no link. You add 3-4 million to the lowest priced IOs and say it lowers the highest price?! All you have done is raise the average price. |
This saves the buyer 5-10 million compared to the last 5 sales.
This only works when buyers are not lazy and sellers are not lazy. Flippers are not lazy and thus we cause the market prices to go from 1m-15m to the normal range of 4m-7m.
Yes the low end comes up, because it TOO LOW. The high end comes down when people get smart and try bidding lower than going rates.
Flippers can't lower prices on their own, buyers have to participate in the market pvp as well. If I listed my IO at 4.5m and someone pays me 10 million for it - that isn't my fault.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Which is so involved that once you've crossed that line, you're no longer in the category of players who can complain with a straight face about so-called market manipulations.