I'd agree with most of that, but of course any valuable drops you get sell for the inflated prices too. Depending on whether you count crafting/selling drops as "playing the minigame", it may not be as daunting as all that. Also, it's possible to bypass the market (nearly) entirely, though that will also involve a significant time investment.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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only if you define 'desirable' as purples and pvp IOs.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
You have to play the market minigame to buy anything desirable there.
|
*everything* else has been devalued by the addition of various market alternatives (tickets, merits, a-merits).
And as always, high prices benefit sellers.
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| It would be a truly daunting proposition to try to buy anything worthwhile by fighting mobs for currency drops. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Yes - if you are participating in the market by selling your drops, you are playing the market minigame. It's only feasible to buy good stuff on the market if you sell good stuff there first. |
Originally Posted by Organica
I'd agree with most of that, but of course any valuable drops you get sell for the inflated prices too. Depending on whether you count crafting/selling drops as "playing the minigame", it may not be as daunting as all that. Also, it's possible to bypass the market (nearly) entirely, though that will also involve a significant time investment.
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You could, I suppose, grind enough inf through drops to get to the 2 billion price tag of some enhancements. That would take a while. I've IO'd characters under artificial constraints, like a fire tanker I built with defense set bonuses that I capped at 30, to run old line TFs with. A lot of that stuff had to be bought outright with merits, because of short supply of key buttons below the limit I had set.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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And oh goodie another whine about the few PvP recipes going for 2 billion inf.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
only if you define 'desirable' as purples and pvp IOs.
*everything* else has been devalued by the addition of various market alternatives (tickets, merits, a-merits). And as always, high prices benefit sellers. Fortunately you can also fight them for tickets, or for merits, or for a-merits. |
Let me guess also ignored by the OP was the fact that you get a lot of pretty decent drops you won't need for a character to sell to buy the ones you aren't getting?
I am certain the response to that is "but I want those for other characters." I want, I want, I want. But they don't suffer from entitlement issues. Nope.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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There is a lot of truth to that, the only major inf sink in game is the 10% WW fee. The problem with introducing new Inf sinks is what to do with them. Most games offer "prestige" items which serve no in-game benefit but look cool (like motorbikes). The problem here is that we have entire communities built around things that serve no in-game benefit but look cool (specifically the costumers and the badgers). If we introduced inf sinks in their bailiwick they would be upset (and somewhat justified IMHO). In a game based around character customization adding cool options (like a cape made out of dollar bills) that can only be obtained by spending extremely large quantities of in-game currency seems rather unfair.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
If the system has a flaw, it is in the lack of money sinks. Not enough currency is absorbed by game systems. The value of the most basic currency ("inf", for influence / infamy / information, depending on which of the three sides you're on) has tended to succumb to fairly severe inflation.
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I wouldn't say that I ignored it. But if you are selling drops, at least by my way of thinking you are "playing the market minigame", which I do think is necessary to participate meaningfully and get anything good from it.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Let me guess also ignored by the OP was the fact that you get a lot of pretty decent drops you won't need for a character to sell to buy the ones you aren't getting?
I am certain the response to that is "but I want those for other characters." I want, I want, I want. But they don't suffer from entitlement issues. Nope. |
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I think the responses are missing the OP's point.
The problem isn't that prices are too high. Everyone is a seller but not everyone is a buyer, so high prices generally help the playerbase. The problem is that there are not enough currency sinks. This means that prices will continue to rise. This constant, steady inflation will make the markets no longer function correctly at some point (a point some would say we've already reached).
The introduction of Amerits have helped to decrease prices, but they haven't introduced enough of a money sink, which means that the inflation that normally would affect all recipes is now concentrated on the 'chase' recipes. Their prices are prohibitively high, and are only going higher.
Right now this is a problem that only affects those who want 'chase' recipes. But it points to an underlying problem in the system that could cause adverse effects eventually.
...
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dumping your junk on the market for some nominal sum and selling it for big bux is mechanically pretty much the same as dumping your junk at a vendor for chump change.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
I wouldn't say that I ignored it. But if you are selling drops, at least by my way of thinking you are "playing the market minigame", which I do think is necessary to participate meaningfully and get anything good from it.
|
I'm not seeing that as an insurmountable hurdle to participation, sorry.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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The real safety valve in the system was introduced with merits, and now A-merits, which provide alternative ways of grinding towards the shinies that otherwise could only be bought on the market with inf. That market was definitely showing signs of strain. Something was a bit out of whack if the market supply dries up because the market price is greater than the inf cap. |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Right now this is a problem that only affects those who want 'chase' recipes. But it points to an underlying problem in the system that could cause adverse effects eventually.
|
My suggestion would be to add a vendor that will sell ANY enhancement, crafted, for a billion a pop. That would peg the value of inf to goods at a minimum value, and remove inf from the system a billion at a time.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
"some would say" pretty much any ridiculous nonsense you could dream up.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
This constant, steady inflation will make the markets no longer function correctly at some point (a point some would say we've already reached).
|
Could we use more junk to spend our inf on?
Sure!
Is there anything currently 'wrong' with the market, or any looming disaster threatening its functioning?
No, aside from the overweening sense of entitlement inherent in a certain subset of gamers.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Huh....exactly which problematic IOs were selling for above the inf cap prior to the introduction of PvP IOs?|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Something was a bit out of whack if the market supply dries up because the market price is greater than the inf cap.
|
Which merits and a-merits have done nothing to rectify.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I do find it interesting that selling on the market is "playing the market minigame" but buying from the market isn't?
When I said you could bypass it entirely, I didn't mean grinding to get 2 billion influence so you could buy from the market. I mean that you can purchase with merits and a-merits and mostly get your salvage with tickets, if you so desired. You don't have to ever set foot in Wentworth's if you don't want to.
But as for the lack of influence sinks... most people on the Market forums would agree with that , I think.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
Last time I had this sort of discussion with Heraclea, I came to the conclusion that her morality [as applied to this game] was self-consistent, but I didn't agree with it in the slightest. It's hard for me to accurately represent a view I don't share, but I think if you start with the Christian idea that usury is a sin, and make some logical deductions from there, you get her view of the market.
Is that a fair statement, Heraclea?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
How is it in any way related to usury, i.e. interest?
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Most of us agree with this.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
lack of money sinks.
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On another note, I'll talk about about "inflation".
At this point even I'm convinced there is significant inflation due to a number
of fairly well known and understood factors.
Previously, say 6 months or so back, it really only existed in the premier market
niches (purples, pvp, and premium sets).
Since then, it has extended throughout the market to encompass most sets, and
a fair amount of salvage (most of which can still be bought pretty cheap with
low bids and some patience, or failing that - AE tickets).
Here's the key point though:
Inflation is ONLY hitting things you don't actually NEED.
TO/DO/SO's: Flat Price. Still, today.
Common IO's: Flat Price for recipes.
Inspirations: Flat price for tier 1's
In short, for those staples, pricing hasn't changed a whit. On the other
hand, income has raised substantially, so, I'll make the point that for
characters sticking to the simple, basic necessities, it's easier today to
obtain them than ever before, without even setting foot in the market.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
However that does mean that you are less able to raise inf by selling normal IOs. If the trend were to continue as an extreme (ignoring various reasons it would not, primarily a-merits), you'd have to get an increasingly huge number of recipes to buy any of the pure luck items.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
Quote:
I'm not seeing how you reach these conclusions:|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
However that does mean that you are less able to raise inf by selling normal IOs. If the trend were to continue as an extreme (ignoring various reasons it would not, primarily a-merits), you'd have to get an increasingly huge number of recipes to buy any of the pure luck items.
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First: In addition to buying, all "staple commodities" I mentioned have Flat
Vendor prices, so no inflationary effect exists there...
2nd:
Quote:
| that does mean that you are less able to raise inf by selling normal IOs. |
those things - the wrinkle -- for those items you have to sell on market.
3rd: Your statement about luck items is as equally flawed (as far as I can
tell) for the same reasons as point #2. Drops are free. If inflation
continues to increase, drops will continue to sell for more.
Taking just points 2 and 3 alone, with increasing sales values (a direct
consequence of inflation), and flat prices for "staple commodities", buying
power increases and "raising inf" is even easier.
So, I'm not sure what you mean by your statement - perhaps you could
clarify the point you're trying to make?
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
I haven't really changed my mind about moral economy, but at least for the purpose of this discussion that is irrelevant. I've tried to think this through in purely systemic and mathematical terms. I'm not here to preach at anybody today.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Last time I had this sort of discussion with Heraclea, I came to the conclusion that her morality [as applied to this game] was self-consistent, but I didn't agree with it in the slightest. It's hard for me to accurately represent a view I don't share, but I think if you start with the Christian idea that usury is a sin, and make some logical deductions from there, you get her view of the market.
Is that a fair statement, Heraclea? |
I continue to think that some new pegging point needs to be set to stabilize the value of inf in the game. One problem (the rest of the post I linked makes more reference to it) is that at some point, in all games, you tend to run out of things to buy. This was CoH's problem until i9. When you had finished equipping a character with SOs you were done with the build. Inf that the character earned could be cumbrously transferred to equip other characters, but that was all there was to do with it. After that, there was only Hami raiding, and any aftermarket for Hamidon loot was informal; there was no WW/BM then either.
That all changed with the inventions and the markets. There was now something to do with all that excess inf, so prices started off very high and stayed that way. Even with the invention system, there still comes a point where a character is "done" and has little left to spend on. And, the longer you play, the easier it is to avoid the game's inf sinks. Veterans don't pay for costume changes unless they want to. Converting inf to SG prestige is a bad deal, and can't be relied on as an inf sink forever even if it were worthwhile: bases, like characters, are complete at some point.
The devs have not chosen to stabilize the value of inf; their response to the devaluing of inf has been to introduce new tokens: non-transferrable currencies that enable goods to be acquired outside WW. First, there were Reward Merits, which bought all but purple and PvP recipes. Now there are the A-Merits, which buy what the Reward Merits couldn't. And there are Mission Architect tickets for salvage.
This baroque confusion of currencies might not be necessary if the value of inf were stabilized in the same way that R- and A-Merits are stable. Come hell or high water, you know that 250 R-Merits buys a Numina unique. 30 A-Merits gets the Gladiator 3% defense. A month of grinding on a single character and it's in the bank. Currently, 50 R-Merits plus 20mil inf can be turned into an A-Merit once a day; that's a start. I've done that once or twice, but not often, because it's rare that I accumulate 20mil in inf on any one character. I don't trust inf as a store of value, so I convert it ASAP into durable commodities.
That's why I suggested a vendor that sold any recipe, up to the Gladiator 3%, for a straight fee. That would provide the value of inf with a floor it could not fall through. Pointing out that the value of inf is pegged to SOs and small inspirations just underlines the problem. (150 for an Awaken? Three times the cost of the others? Daham, tha's esspensive!) The system problem that I see is that these old pegs for the value of influence just don't mean much in the game economy as it has developed after i9.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
Unfortunately Christian morals would not apply to games and that is where the disconnect occurs. Not to mention I suspect burning purse snatchers alive would be a sin as would slicing and dicing them.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Last time I had this sort of discussion with Heraclea, I came to the conclusion that her morality [as applied to this game] was self-consistent, but I didn't agree with it in the slightest. It's hard for me to accurately represent a view I don't share, but I think if you start with the Christian idea that usury is a sin, and make some logical deductions from there, you get her view of the market.
Is that a fair statement, Heraclea? |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
In a real world economy, the devaluation of currency by inflation is somewhat less of a problem; you do as Zimbabwe did and just multiply by ten billion. If I lived in Zimbabwe, I'd vote for a rock for President myself:|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Taking just points 2 and 3 alone, with increasing sales values (a direct consequence of inflation), and flat prices for "staple commodities", buying power increases and "raising inf" is even easier.
|
Here, the devs have a firmer grasp on the throttle of the money supply. You also have artificial barriers like the two billion inf cap. That figure was probably set because it was imagined that it represented more inf than anyone would ever acquire. The fact that it's often exceeded by some players suggests that something has gone amiss. Some way needs to be found to start draining inf from the system in a way that makes players want to turn in inf, without penalizing players who did not play for inf before.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
I would argue that introduction of A-merits has actually led to deflation in what you term the "chase" recipes. There seems to be a soft cap of around 150mm for those, which in many cases is significantly lower than prices pre-I18.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I think the responses are missing the OP's point.
The problem isn't that prices are too high. Everyone is a seller but not everyone is a buyer, so high prices generally help the playerbase. The problem is that there are not enough currency sinks. This means that prices will continue to rise. This constant, steady inflation will make the markets no longer function correctly at some point (a point some would say we've already reached). The introduction of Amerits have helped to decrease prices, but they haven't introduced enough of a money sink, which means that the inflation that normally would affect all recipes is now concentrated on the 'chase' recipes. Their prices are prohibitively high, and are only going higher. Right now this is a problem that only affects those who want 'chase' recipes. But it points to an underlying problem in the system that could cause adverse effects eventually. |
In every gaming system I've ever been a part of, the prices of things tend to segregate into three levels based on their relative usefulness and scarcity: Wow!, Meh..., and Bleck! Everyone wants Wow! but the reason prices are Wow! is because Wow! is useful and in short supply. It's not like this game is particularly hard that you can't get by on Meh... or Bleck!
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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This is a good summary of a potential solution to the problem. It may already be in the works, who knows. You've hit the head squarely on the nail, I think. Wait...
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Some way needs to be found to start draining inf from the system in a way that makes players want to turn in inf, without penalizing players who did not play for inf before.
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Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Quote:
Unless you make ink for a living. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
In a real world economy, the devaluation of currency by inflation is somewhat less of a problem; you do as Zimbabwe did and just multiply by ten billion. If I lived in Zimbabwe, I'd vote for a rock for President myself:
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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From a reply I posted on Massively, responding to an article, "Does game currency matter?"
Of the games I play regularly right now, City of Heroes has a fairly robust and interesting economy, with a variety of currencies, tokens, and token vendors in play that make for a complicated interplay. The market interface, while slow, is robust. All servers feed a common market. The one artificial limitation on market transfers, that villain markets were separate from hero markets, was abolished in the last issue. The interface allows buyer bid competition as well as seller price competition. The system is fully anonymous; no market participant is identified on either bids or sales. Finally, the system is fed with goods by the absence of character binding for most desirable game loot.
These features make the CoH market a fairly interesting minigame. If the system has a flaw, it is in the lack of money sinks. Not enough currency is absorbed by game systems. The value of the most basic currency ("inf", for influence / infamy / information, depending on which of the three sides you're on) has tended to succumb to fairly severe inflation. After the invention system was added, the origin enhancements that are the only in game peg for the value of the currency are now the most basic and least desirable kind. And, the invention system was planted on top of a system that had run for years without any inf sinks for levelled and completed characters.
This inflation tends to be daunting to new players. You have to play the market minigame to buy anything desirable there. It would be a truly daunting proposition to try to buy anything worthwhile by fighting mobs for currency drops.
...
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison