Incarnates and your character's backstories.


Amerikatt

 

Posted

I'm playing a Natural Arrow/Fire blaster. He's perfectly human. What about the /fire people asked. I said it was intensive training under martial arts masters who unlocked his inner fire, training him in how to utilize how body's natural Chi energy to achieve specific results.

Incarnates would just further this, more intensive training under even more mysterious masters.


 

Posted

While I love the implementation of the Incarnate system, I really do dislike the backstory and assumptions around it. For people who RP that really seems constraining. It would be much better to just let us have the powers and work our own stories around them. For people who don't RP they don't care, it's just another system.

People who do can likely make their own stories as to their power or lack there of.

Basically, I'm going to totally ignore the backstory for Incarnates and my main and several others will never claim to be one despite having those powers.


 

Posted

I've always said that your Origin details precisely and only where your powers COME FROM. Where you go after you enter Paragon City at level 1, and what you do to further your powers and access new ones, has nothing to do with what your origin was in the past. If you are a Magic Origin, you can pick up a Jet Pack or a Revolver and use its powers, if you are a Technology Origin, you can pick up a Wedding Band or the Sands of Mu and use those powers.

And even Origin is limited. I have a robot character that is powered by occult energy, which I created specifically because he could NOT be classified as either Technology or Magic. He is both, and I could have chosen either. But just because he's a robot, that doesn't stop him using magic, and just because he uses magic, that doesn't mean he can't augment his technological body.

Putting it another way, your Origin is the core of your powers. If you take the Patron Powers, it's stated in the game lore that you're "borrowing" power from the Patrons. You could role play it as an extension of your own powers, of course, but then it's not a Patron Power, it's just another form of APP. You're just (assuming you even care about concept) choosing something that's closer to your concept than the other APPs available.

As for Incarnates, it's my understanding that Incarnates are the "original Origin" that the Origin of Power arc was talking about. There is no Origin for Incarnates, it's a whole new Origin all its own. So if you're a Natural, you would become a Natural with Incarnate powers. Honestly, some of my skill-based Natural heroes might not want to become Incarnate for that reason, he wouldn't trust such absolute power. On the other hand, if the only way to fight absolute power is with absolute power, he might take the chance that he can keep from being corrupted by it. Or at least keep the corruption to a minimum.

If I decided to role play it, I might decide my Natural hero chose instead to find some other way to augment his powers to the same level. Some of my other characters I might ignore the official canon as well, while others might embrace it, just like the Patrons. Since I have few enough characters that have even gotten to 50 in the first place, I'm not sure that it's an issue to me.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Are those two differences of degree or differences of kind for you? To me it's the latter.
And to me it's usually the former. I can't envision a David vs. Goliath scenario for how a martial artist can take down a three-storey robot with no visible weak spots, but I'd be content to spar with the Tsoo and the Warriors all the way to 50. On the other hand, punching ectoplasm is the spiritualist equivalent of boxing magic molasses - whom does one call, Bruce Lee or a Ghostbuster?

Be that as it may, I'll accommodate my characters as need be for Incarnate abilities - I've tried to spread around my origin types (natural looks like the most problematic for the endgame).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torrynt View Post
While I love the implementation of the Incarnate system, I really do dislike the backstory and assumptions around it. For people who RP that really seems constraining. It would be much better to just let us have the powers and work our own stories around them. For people who don't RP they don't care, it's just another system.

People who do can likely make their own stories as to their power or lack there of.

Basically, I'm going to totally ignore the backstory for Incarnates and my main and several others will never claim to be one despite having those powers.
The Backstory we don't even know anything about yet?


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

For me, this just isn't a big deal. Even for characters with highly developed backstories, having the game dictate things is just a fact of its being a game and an MMO. When I want absolute creative control over something, I'll write it myself. Surrendering a little bit of that control seems like a fair price to me to use the game's art assets, community, etc.

Your Mileage May Vary.


"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"

Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers

A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"

 

Posted

My Merc MM is natural so the whole introduction to incarnate will be easy, he found the well / remnents of what was within the well and over time his own natural skills and powers fused with the "Natural power of the incarnates" should be fun soon the game should be called "City of gods"


*Union* Dark lord of mercs and cookies!

@EU Great Cthulhu

 

Posted

I'm just hoping that with the in-game "look" of the Incarnate powers, we still have options that fit in people who don't have laser vision or shoot energy blasts everywhere.

The other thing is... you're not godlike as an incarnate. You can't reshape reality to your whim. You don't just run missions by walking in the door and snapping your fingers and teleporting the bad guys into a jail. Even with your Omega slot and huge glowing yellow hair that's 47 feet long... Malta Sappers will ruin your day. You know, those average humans? Who just beat your demigod ***?

Yeah.

Them.

They're still going to suck.

So I take it all with a grain of salt that you'll suddenly be godlike.

Something I hope is that they make the animations on some of the powers interesting and able to fit with characters. The Judgement AoE? Is that going to be a straight energy blast or will you be able to, say, on your dual blades scrapper cut the air so hard you make a shockwave?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Are those two differences of degree or differences of kind for you? To me it's the latter. My MA guy (Ironik) can punch ghosts because on Primal Earth they are physical beings made up of ectoplasm who have the ability to become noncorporeal at times. They become vulnerable to physical attack when they want to affect the rest of the world and he's just learned *when* to hit them. (Ditto for my gunner, Tommi Gunn.) As for armored aliens and robots, it's not a question of *when*, it's a question of *where*. I just assume Ironik hits the armor in the weak spots, and kicks out wires on the robots, thus disabling them.

Incarnate powers are a bit tougher for me to rationalize because they affect the very nature of some of my characters. Why should Tommi Gunn, my Natural gunner, have to change the core of her origin in order to accommodate the Well of Furies magic stuff? I'm pretty much just going to have to ignore it rather than somehow incorporate it, I think.
I'm of the opposite camp. When I come up with my characters' stories of their adventures, the battles rarely include any bearing with the battle. Heck, if you tried to turn a combat log of any game, particular mmo's into a narrative, it'd be one of the dullest stories ever created. I never take them as literal incidents.

Take, for example, a Kronos titan- my natural scrapper's part in the battle was whittling it down by constantly kicking its left foot? No, she managed to get on the leg, hold on for dear life, and reach into the crevices under armor, tearing any any wires or hoses she could, hopefully damaging the joint over time. Maybe the munitions blaster tosses her a few charges to place...

Circle of Thorns? Same natural scrapper's needs to invade a Circle library. There are no "dozens of teams" in the halls that she has to fight wave after wave. She's using stealth, agility, and very quick suppression attacks to take out the more human Circle members in the places she needs to go. She's not prepared for the ghosts, though- not even aware of them-- they're in their intangible form... watching, warning their colleagues, and planning a trap-- and that trap will be more than wave after wave of assailants charging her. When it comes, guile, smart footwork, a strategic strike or two, and a little luck will be all that let her escape with what she came in for.

---

The incarnate stuff?
Well, the alpha slot is easy enough to just ignore the story background, just as I ignore my character's presence in Ouroboros-- she never time traveled. Future slots may prove more different-- I heard one is an aura-like attack? Well, unless there are options for an aura of fear or a passive buff (inspiring teammates) I don't see how its something I could fit with her...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amerikatt View Post
I am sorry to hear that.

What specifically has caused your head to hurt?
The way you crammed everything together, ignoring any sort of logical premise or existing precedents as to what Origins mean. (Heck, you seem to ignore the *definitions* of the words themselves, nevermind how they're utilized in-game.)

Amerikatt can't be Natural origin, because she drank some water which changed her. Based on the other stuff you've written, she's clearly Magic origin. One might argue she's Science origin if the water is shown to be chemically treated with something artificially created and the other stuff is just her religion. But no way is she Natural, in any sense of the word, and definitely not how it's used in this situation.

I don't feel limited by the in-game explanations of how our powers came to be, I'm simply annoyed by the Developers who seem determined to shoehorn us all into ridiculous little boxes without any regard for what *we* might want to say about the characters we create.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

Posted

The only thing this really affects in my primary villain's backstory is that becoming Incarnate, with all the power and potential immortality that goes with it, was his entire goal from the start. He's an ex-military-gone-mercenary commander and who is quite capable of whipping up chemical weapons midbattle -- basically, a Natural Mercs/Poison MM. Several other characters of mine will probably jump at the opportunity to become an Incarnate, my Praetorians being the most notable.

It doesn't fit every one of my characters, so if it's inconvenient I'll ignore it and just chalk it up to them becoming stronger or something. I really have no issue both ignoring -and- integrating concepts like the Incarnate or Origin of Power as I see fit. Along with a healthy helping of what Chase_Arcanum is saying, too, for the most part anyway. Though I would have no issue ignoring (but still using) future power-based things they might gain if I felt it inconvenient to a character.


Birth of a Villain Group (Arc ID 60573): Designed for villains level 1 - 10. Found a villainous organization on Mercy Island. Find a base, recruit some minions, gather valuable equipment, and destroy your enemies!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Are those two differences of degree or differences of kind for you? To me it's the latter. My MA guy (Ironik) can punch ghosts because on Primal Earth they are physical beings made up of ectoplasm who have the ability to become noncorporeal at times. They become vulnerable to physical attack when they want to affect the rest of the world and he's just learned *when* to hit them. (Ditto for my gunner, Tommi Gunn.) As for armored aliens and robots, it's not a question of *when*, it's a question of *where*. I just assume Ironik hits the armor in the weak spots, and kicks out wires on the robots, thus disabling them.

Incarnate powers are a bit tougher for me to rationalize because they affect the very nature of some of my characters. Why should Tommi Gunn, my Natural gunner, have to change the core of her origin in order to accommodate the Well of Furies magic stuff? I'm pretty much just going to have to ignore it rather than somehow incorporate it, I think.
I'm of the opposite camp. When I come up with my characters' stories of their adventures, the battles rarely include any bearing with the battle. Heck, if you tried to turn a combat log of any game, particular mmo's into a narrative, it'd be one of the dullest stories ever created. I never take them as literal incidents.

Take, for example, a Kronos titan- my natural scrapper's part in the battle was whittling it down by constantly kicking its left foot? No, she managed to get on the leg, hold on for dear life, and reach into the crevices under armor, tearing any any wires or hoses she could, hopefully damaging the joint over time. Maybe the munitions blaster tosses her a few charges to place...

Circle of Thorns? Same natural scrapper's needs to invade a Circle library. There are no "dozens of teams" in the halls that she has to fight wave after wave. She's using stealth, agility, and very quick suppression attacks to take out the more human Circle members in the places she needs to go. She's not prepared for the ghosts, though- not even aware of them-- they're in their intangible form... watching, warning their colleagues, and planning a trap-- and that trap will be more than wave after wave of assailants charging her. When it comes, guile, smart footwork, a strategic strike or two, and a little luck will be all that let her escape with what she came in for.

---

The incarnate stuff?
Well, the alpha slot is easy enough to just ignore the story background, just as I ignore my character's presence in Ouroboros-- she never time traveled. Future slots may prove more different-- I heard one is an aura-like attack? Well, unless there are options for an aura of fear or a passive buff (inspiring teammates) I don't see how its something I could fit with her...
Actually, it sounds like you're firmly in my camp on this one.

Rationalizing the battles into a more palatable story is what we're doing (even if we do it slightly differently), while we're incapable of really justifying how the Well of Furies magic will sit with some of our characters.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend View Post
I'm just hoping that with the in-game "look" of the Incarnate powers, we still have options that fit in people who don't have laser vision or shoot energy blasts everywhere.

The other thing is... you're not godlike as an incarnate. You can't reshape reality to your whim. You don't just run missions by walking in the door and snapping your fingers and teleporting the bad guys into a jail. Even with your Omega slot and huge glowing yellow hair that's 47 feet long... Malta Sappers will ruin your day. You know, those average humans? Who just beat your demigod ***?

Yeah.

Them.

They're still going to suck.

So I take it all with a grain of salt that you'll suddenly be godlike.

Something I hope is that they make the animations on some of the powers interesting and able to fit with characters. The Judgement AoE? Is that going to be a straight energy blast or will you be able to, say, on your dual blades scrapper cut the air so hard you make a shockwave?
Like a claws scrapper can?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxXavier View Post
The only thing this really affects in my primary villain's backstory is that becoming Incarnate, with all the power and potential immortality that goes with it, was his entire goal from the start. He's an ex-military-gone-mercenary commander and who is quite capable of whipping up chemical weapons midbattle -- basically, a Natural Mercs/Poison MM. Several other characters of mine will probably jump at the opportunity to become an Incarnate, my Praetorians being the most notable.

It doesn't fit every one of my characters, so if it's inconvenient I'll ignore it and just chalk it up to them becoming stronger or something. I really have no issue both ignoring -and- integrating concepts like the Incarnate or Origin of Power as I see fit. Along with a healthy helping of what Chase_Arcanum is saying, too, for the most part anyway. Though I would have no issue ignoring (but still using) future power-based things they might gain if I felt it inconvenient to a character.
My issue with these things -- especially Origin of Power & Power Proliferation -- is that they are completely and utterly unnecessary. There's just no need to constrain players in that fashion in order to explain game mechanics. That's like having a special story arc to tell you why animations are shared across different powersets. We all know it's because there are time and budget constraints on the Devs, but there's zero reason to tell us *in-game* that we were all trained by the exact same person. That bit would just dampen our creativity. THAT'S what I'm annoyed by. I can ignore and rationalize with the best of them, that's not the issue; the issue is we shouldn't *have to*.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
My issue with these things -- especially Origin of Power & Power Proliferation -- is that they are completely and utterly unnecessary. There's just no need to constrain players in that fashion in order to explain game mechanics. That's like having a special story arc to tell you why animations are shared across different powersets. We all know it's because there are time and budget constraints on the Devs, but there's zero reason to tell us *in-game* that we were all trained by the exact same person. That bit would just dampen our creativity. THAT'S what I'm annoyed by. I can ignore and rationalize with the best of them, that's not the issue; the issue is we shouldn't *have to*.
Power Proliferation is the only one I really have an -issue- with, as I quite like meta-origins and don't find them quite so unnecessary or constraining to creativity. If anything, being a bit constrained makes me more creative personally -- I can't speak for others of course. Power Prolif having a "story" to it was just kind of dumb, though. And it's not like they really went anywhere with it, it was just kind of mentioned the first round of prolif and then forgotten.


Birth of a Villain Group (Arc ID 60573): Designed for villains level 1 - 10. Found a villainous organization on Mercy Island. Find a base, recruit some minions, gather valuable equipment, and destroy your enemies!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend View Post
I'm just hoping that with the in-game "look" of the Incarnate powers, we still have options that fit in people who don't have laser vision or shoot energy blasts everywhere.

The other thing is... you're not godlike as an incarnate. You can't reshape reality to your whim. You don't just run missions by walking in the door and snapping your fingers and teleporting the bad guys into a jail. Even with your Omega slot and huge glowing yellow hair that's 47 feet long... Malta Sappers will ruin your day. You know, those average humans? Who just beat your demigod ***?

Yeah.

Them.

They're still going to suck.

So I take it all with a grain of salt that you'll suddenly be godlike.
Some of my Scrappers are already godlike when it comes to ordinary mobs like Sappers. Quick Recovery and Stamina allows me to basically shrug off the attacks of two Sappers at a time. Add Accolades and IOs that increase global End Rec into the mix and that essentially doubles. Four Sappers, dead as doornails, and I'm already on to the next group. Throw in a 33% recharge that ignores Diminishing Returns... Pavlov's dogs got nuttin' on me, man. My Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster is insane without a single Purple IO to his name. If I were to farm the Inf needed to purple him out and then add Incarnate bonuses on top of that... yowza.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction