I'd be in favour of this.
Certain powers would have to be coded to not accept them, such as Repel/Repulsion Field, Whirlwind, Bonfire and Tornado, since they'd be overpowered if they did knockdown.
But giving people the option to use slots to turn KB into KD seems like a good idea for some other powers.
I dont think it makes much sense if u get pushed less u dont fall down u just move less.
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If you go below 1 in magnitude then it is simply knockdown instead of knockback.|
Originally Posted by KnG
I dont think it makes much sense if u get pushed less u dont fall down u just move less.
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I love this idea! Hopefully it would be a -knockback of very very high magnitude so it isn't taking up more than a single slot. It would satisfy a LOT of people (some energy blasters, SS Handclap are the first things that spring to mind)
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Do you mean Tornado or Hurricane? There is already a knock-up version of Tornado available to Stalkers and Domis. |
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I'd be in favour of this.
Certain powers would have to be coded to not accept them, such as Repel/Repulsion Field, Whirlwind, Bonfire and Tornado, since they'd be overpowered if they did knockdown. But giving people the option to use slots to turn KB into KD seems like a good idea for some other powers. |
Actually I wonder if that would be the easier way to code this, rather than trying to reduce knockdown, which could be difficult for people to slot correctly, could you add an IO which changes the effect of knockback into knockup, then the mag wouldn't need to be changed.
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Well. I suppose there's also the option of having it completely mitigate KD/KB to the point that there is none. This is already possible using certain control sets and the Black Scorpion Patron Pool - whose AoE immobilizes negate KB completely. It's the reason most of my Masterminds wind up taking Black Scorpion - just for that one power and that one effect.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I'd be in favour of this.
Certain powers would have to be coded to not accept them, such as Repel/Repulsion Field, Whirlwind, Bonfire and Tornado, since they'd be overpowered if they did knockdown. But giving people the option to use slots to turn KB into KD seems like a good idea for some other powers. |
Happily (for me at least) the devs tried to make and failed. There was a post somewhere by Castle I believe. Anyhow, lots of threads on this and always two camps emerge that are very emotional on the subject.
IMO, this would lead to more chaos in the game with players bickering over KB.
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That's a very good point actually, one I've never considered. If people had the ability to tone down their KB, those that don't for whatever reasons could become targets to the Build Police. |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Happily (for me at least) the devs tried to make and failed. There was a post somewhere by Castle I believe. Anyhow, lots of threads on this and always two camps emerge that are very emotional on the subject.
IMO, this would lead to more chaos in the game with players bickering over KB. |
"nub, ur blasts arent slottd to stop KB"
*kicked*
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I don't really see this, personally. You already have folk who are so adamantly anti-KB that they refuse to team with powersets known to be heavy in it. To the point of kicking them if found on said team. Frankly, these aren't folk I'd want to team with in the first place, anyhow. This won't get any worse - instead, the folk who despise KB will be able to play sets that are heavy in it, themselves, with the option of negating it more reliably. It would even solve some practical issues for both camps - for instance, the Commando pet from the Mercenaries set knocking things out of Tar Patch, Sleet, or any other location-based AoE with his M30, Buckshot, and LRM Rocket.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Happily (for me at least) the devs tried to make and failed. There was a post somewhere by Castle I believe. Anyhow, lots of threads on this and always two camps emerge that are very emotional on the subject.
IMO, this would lead to more chaos in the game with players bickering over KB. |
If it's already been stated to be implausible, though, then I s'pose that's a whole 'nother bucket.
For the record, I fall somewhere in the middle. I like KB when I have a use for it - but there are just as many times when I wish I had some way to turn it off or tone it down.
As I recall, it wasn't impossible. But rather a whole lot of work to make feasible. The devs surprise us and actually tried to make this. I should see if I can find the post. I am just in a camp that prefer they never do (and accept I may be the only one in that camp).
FYI, here is one thread that was emotional on the topic.
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I think it is viable. However, it is probably not the optimal solution. For the energy blaster that you used as an example, it probably wants to do knockdown most of the time, but there should be some situations that knockback is the right thing to do.|
Originally Posted by Serevus
How's about it? We have IOs that buff knockback - so how about one that debuffs Knockback magnitude; effectively turning it into knockdown? They'd be sold by the truckloads! Or perhaps make it a set bonus of some sort.. that would be an awful lot of slots to give up for, say, an Energy Blaster who wants to do knockdown.
Assuming it's actually viable, tech-wise. |
The underlying issue is that knockback-knockdown control at the enhancement level does not allow players to switch between knockback and knockdown according to different situation. For example, I cannot knockdown this mob, but knockback the other mob. My suggestion is to allow players to click a power for knockback, but shift-click a power for knockdown. The current knockback enhancement can be used to control the knockback distance if knockback is chosen. Players can choose to keybind the different activations differently. Click and shift-click here are just examples.
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Oh, definitely. The enhancement workaround just seemed like an easier solution that wouldn't require quite as much work as a whole new system.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
I think it is viable. However, it is probably not the optimal solution. For the energy blaster that you used as an example, it probably wants to do knockdown most of the time, but there should be some situations that knockback is the right thing to do.
The underlying issue is that knockback-knockdown control at the enhancement level does not allow players to switch between knockback and knockdown according to different situation. For example, I cannot knockdown this mob, but knockback the other mob. My suggestion is to allow players to click a power for knockback, but shift-click a power for knockdown. The current knockback enhancement can be used to control the knockback distance if knockback is chosen. Players can choose to keybind the different activations differently. Click and shift-click here are just examples. |
Though I suppose one could simply add a -knockback toggle power to particular sets, or as an inherent - though it might not make as much sense.
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Oh, I've seen how passionate they can be. On this topic and much sillier ones. They'll be just as passionate with or without an option, is all I mean. |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
As I recall, it wasn't impossible. But rather a whole lot of work to make feasible. The devs surprise us and actually tried to make this. I should see if I can find the post. I am just in a camp that prefer they never do (and accept I may be the only one in that camp).
FYI, here is one thread that was emotional on the topic. |
If you could find the post, though, that would be fantastic. I shouldn't go plotting on something that's already been dismissed!
As I recall the post was made during i18 beta and so it unlikely we'd be able to find it. To the best of my recollection, he said that it was impossible to make the -KB IO function consistently.
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0.75 is the actual transition point between KD and KB, but other than that, you're correct.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
If you go below 1 in magnitude then it is simply knockdown instead of knockback.
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Originally Posted by Serevus
How's about it? We have IOs that buff knockback - so how about one that debuffs Knockback magnitude; effectively turning it into knockdown? They'd be sold by the truckloads! Or perhaps make it a set bonus of some sort.. that would be an awful lot of slots to give up for, say, an Energy Blaster who wants to do knockdown.
Assuming it's actually viable, tech-wise. |
A "Reduce KB" enhancement would only work in a power which was designed specifically to accept it; and such a power wouldn't be able to work with our current increase KB enhancements. The effects of the power would have to be something along the lines of this (based on Power Push):
- 0.13 * [Ranged_Damage] Smashing damage
- 0.13 * [Ranged_Damage] Energy damage
- 12.00 * [Ranged_Knockback] Knockback [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
- -4.00 * [Ranged_Knockback] Knockback
The other option would be to have a power which applies KB to the target and applies enhanceable KB Resistance to the target, though that would reduce everyone's KB magnitude, not just yours. Both options could reduce the KB magnitude to 0 (the former if enhanced too much, the latter if stacked), which would result in neither KB nor KD. The former option, if enhanced too much, could result in handing out KB protection rather than KD.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I would actually argue that there is almost no situation in which knockback is preferable to knockdown, but that's neither here nor there.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
I think it is viable. However, it is probably not the optimal solution. For the energy blaster that you used as an example, it probably wants to do knockdown most of the time, but there should be some situations that knockback is the right thing to do.
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Personally, I would ideally want to see knockback removed from some of the sillier places where it currently is, such as Hand Clap, Repulsing Torrent, Hurl Boulder and so on. I would vastly prefer this to having the ability to control knockback, because I'd sooner powers be done right than have the ability to fix them.
All of that said, if such an enhancement were viable, you bet your crab cakes I would slot that in Hand Clap and Shockwave in a heartbeat. I wouldn't really go out of my way to make ENTIRE POWERSETS knockback-less, specifically since powersets with all knockback powers tend to belong to ATs where knockback isn't such an issue, and moreover because it would take too much effort to remove, but for the errant few, I would definitely use that.
I'm not sure how the idea that increasing knockback strength works but decreasing it doesn't in the current system, as I really couldn't follow the logic behind that one. I would think that an enhancement can be tagged with a negative number to REDUCE the sum total of knockback enhancing effects, but again Standard Code Rant applies. The problem I've heard is that because the different knockback powers have different levels of knockback, it's hard to judge how far down you need to go. I assume putting a floor there and just going, say, -100 would work, but again - I don't know. I also assume that debuffing whatever hard cap there is on enhancement values to a very low level similar to how some slow powers kill your run speed cap should be viable but who knows?
The problem of "sneaking in" effects tends to be either when effects that the developers don't WANT to be enhanceable are enhanced, or effects that cause bugs are enhanced. As I hear it with damage buff enhancement, that enhancement would enhance itself and enter a loop, which is why we're not allowed to do that. I forget the exact reasoning, but it was along those lines. It's true that we don't have enhancements that DECREASE our stats, but I don't think that's out of impossibility, but more because of a game balance philosophy that dictates you don't balance by taking away, but rather by not giving.
In general, however, I will agree that at least SOME knockback needs to go, though whatever way is technically feasible to do.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm quoting this post for the fact that, I'd have to disagree with you Sam on the above bolded statement. I see no reason that these would be considered silly places for knockback.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I would actually argue that there is almost no situation in which knockback is preferable to knockdown, but that's neither here nor there.
Personally, I would ideally want to see knockback removed from some of the sillier places where it currently is, such as Hand Clap, Repulsing Torrent, Hurl Boulder and so on. I would vastly prefer this to having the ability to control knockback, because I'd sooner powers be done right than have the ability to fix them. All of that said, if such an enhancement were viable, you bet your crab cakes I would slot that in Hand Clap and Shockwave in a heartbeat. I wouldn't really go out of my way to make ENTIRE POWERSETS knockback-less, specifically since powersets with all knockback powers tend to belong to ATs where knockback isn't such an issue, and moreover because it would take too much effort to remove, but for the errant few, I would definitely use that. I'm not sure how the idea that increasing knockback strength works but decreasing it doesn't in the current system, as I really couldn't follow the logic behind that one. I would think that an enhancement can be tagged with a negative number to REDUCE the sum total of knockback enhancing effects, but again Standard Code Rant applies. The problem I've heard is that because the different knockback powers have different levels of knockback, it's hard to judge how far down you need to go. I assume putting a floor there and just going, say, -100 would work, but again - I don't know. I also assume that debuffing whatever hard cap there is on enhancement values to a very low level similar to how some slow powers kill your run speed cap should be viable but who knows? The problem of "sneaking in" effects tends to be either when effects that the developers don't WANT to be enhanceable are enhanced, or effects that cause bugs are enhanced. As I hear it with damage buff enhancement, that enhancement would enhance itself and enter a loop, which is why we're not allowed to do that. I forget the exact reasoning, but it was along those lines. It's true that we don't have enhancements that DECREASE our stats, but I don't think that's out of impossibility, but more because of a game balance philosophy that dictates you don't balance by taking away, but rather by not giving. In general, however, I will agree that at least SOME knockback needs to go, though whatever way is technically feasible to do. |
Why wouldn't these powers knock people back? What exactly makes these powers silly for having KB in them? Makes sense to me.
Or am I the only one who's read a comicbook, where people get sent flying when hit hard?
Also, I find KB, while admittedly a both on some people, better mitigation than KD, for the reason that they're sent flying, THEN to the ground, THEN they have to get back up, to last longer than, they are knocked down and then they have to just get back up.
As for the suggestion, I'm not for it. It would just cause more problems for people with knockback powers, with people saying "OMG you don't have that -KB slotted in your powers. You suck!"
A -KB IO would just reenforce people's idea that KB sucks.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
I think it is viable. However, it is probably not the optimal solution. For the energy blaster that you used as an example, it probably wants to do knockdown most of the time, but there should be some situations that knockback is the right thing to do.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I would actually argue that there is almost no situation in which knockback is preferable to knockdown, but that's neither here nor there.
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I don't mind the 'oddball' knockback power here and there - Knockback does have some very handy uses, after all. What bothers me the most, personally, is a set like Energy Blast. Knockback is a situational tool for all but the soloist - and here you have an entire set in which every single attack has two things: damage and knockback. That's really about it. This can really hurt on a team - or if you happen to be a Defender or Corruptor of several types. (Other gripes are included in earlier posts.)
Sleet, Tar Patch, Twilight Grasp, Snow Storm, Radiation Infection, Enervating Field, Liquefy, Freezing Rain, Disruption Arrow, Oil Slick Arrow - there are many, many location/toggle-based powers that really shine when the enemies are grouped up in one place and stay there. And you're going to knock them right out of it with almost every attack you have, without some tricky positioning first. And even then it isn't quite guaranteed. There isn't always a handy wall nearby - nor are they quite certain to fly neatly against it every time. Particularly with AoEs.
Certainly, you could try and work with your resident Defender/Controller/Corruptor/Mastermind to hold on their debuffs until after you've knocked things silly into a more manageable spot - but more often than not, this simply isn't going to happen.
This is, specifically, what led to me thinking about this in the first place.
On a lighter note - my favorite uses for knockback:
- Knocking things out of my squishy face.
- Knocking things out of my squishy -teammates- face. This is one of the odder things I've ever been thanked for.
- Keeping things in a neat little pile when there's a nice corner nearby.
- Sending level 1 Hellions flying for a few blocks at level 50.
- Sending level anything anythings flying off the top of buildings. Especially in Praetoria, which seems to have a higher ceiling.
- Knocking things on their **** so I and/or my team can make a safe getaway.
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I might be wrong, but i think he's going for melee classes shouldn't knock Mobs out of their range.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm quoting this post for the fact that, I'd have to disagree with you Sam on the above bolded statement. I see no reason that these would be considered silly places for knockback.
Why wouldn't these powers knock people back? What exactly makes these powers silly for having KB in them? Makes sense to me. |
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You could also argue that there's almost no situation in which a 6, 8, 10s or longer Hold is preferable to a 3s Hold.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I would actually argue that there is almost no situation in which knockback is preferable to knockdown, but that's neither here nor there.
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Good luck with that.
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What? When I used Crane Kick on enemies and it actually knocked things back, it felt very comic book super hero.|
Originally Posted by Shadow State
I might be wrong, but i think he's going for melee classes shouldn't knock Mobs out of their range.
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It also never bothered me at all.
KB fits the theme of these powers in every comic book sense. So I see no problem with them.
This doesn't mean I'll take them and use them, but it makes sense, so should be in there. If I don't like it or can't handle it, I dont use it/take it.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I don't like this idea. I think all KB should have it's base mag tripled.
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I can also argue that there's almost no situation where Avoid effects are preferable to no Avoid effects.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
You could also argue that there's almost no situation in which a 6, 8, 10s or longer Hold is preferable to a 3s Hold.
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Pity none of that has anything at all to do with what I actually talked about in my post, isn't it?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've found plenty of situations where knockback's better than Knockdown.
- Pushing an enemy back into the group
- Pushing an enemy back into a debuff zone
- Knocking over a KB resistant enemy
- Ranged enemy on top of a tall shipping crate, firing down from the edge. Knocking them back breaks line of sight and tends to make them come down to you.
- In general due to the longer duration that they're disabled, which is what Luminara is referring to, I believe.
I was referring earlier to Tornado, by the way. KB instead of KD means it doesn't automatically become a meat-mincer and perma-flopper every time its used.
I know mass immobilises on Controllers can help it do this, but they miss and the -KD lasts only 10 seconds, forcing you to spam a very expensive power for your damage (and lose the disabling effect of the knockback). They certainly did when I tried using Bonfire and Fire Cages - there was always some scatter.
I am agog at Water Spout, I never realised it did knock up before. Is it as good as it sounds?
How's about it? We have IOs that buff knockback - so how about one that debuffs Knockback magnitude; effectively turning it into knockdown? They'd be sold by the truckloads! Or perhaps make it a set bonus of some sort.. that would be an awful lot of slots to give up for, say, an Energy Blaster who wants to do knockdown.
Assuming it's actually viable, tech-wise.