I love my ice tank!
Of my two 50 tanks, ice and dark, I actually prefer ice.
Dark has high resists, so when you get hit, you take less damage per hit. However, ice is about defense, so you just don't get hit as often. Resistance tends to be more predictable, whereas sometimes with defense you can get some bad luck and get totally flattened. However, Ice comes with Hibernate to help out in that regard.
Ice is also great in the endurance department after the absorb power if there are 2+ mobs around.
If you go Ice Melee, Ice Patch is also great for tanking. (Though I think in terms of overall damage, Ice Melee is allegedly low... or was a while ago.)
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Ice is the best set in the game for aggro management... however it takes awhile to come into it's own and tends to be less durable than many other sets. This can be overcome with a good build and it can get pretty dang good with a good build and good IO bonuses.|
Originally Posted by Jawbreaker
Is Ice not a very good set? I have a concept i'd liek to try, was thinking Ice/stone or Ice/kin or Ice/Ice. Any advICE? :P
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Many people don't like the appearance of the set, and it does suffer teething problems in the lower levels... this probably accounts for the relative few Ice tanks you see in the game.
Thinking of pairings of course Ice/Ice is the classic example; it will offer considerable additional mitigation at the expense of lower overall damage. Ice/Stone will have excellent single target damage and good mitigation but limited AOE damage. I haven't any experience with Kin Melee but from watching a couple of friends playing it the set impresses me as a lot of flash and not much substance.
All in all if you're willing to invest the time and put up with being a somewhat squishy tanker until the set matures go ahead and give it a try.
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Ice a good set. But I think the appearance of ice armor turns people off. Stone gets a pass from the appearance penalty by some folks since it is considered the "strongest" resistance set.
Just an impression I've picked up over the months/years.
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Well, I've done ice / mace and ice / elec.|
Originally Posted by Jawbreaker
Is Ice not a very good set? I have a concept i'd liek to try, was thinking Ice/stone or Ice/kin or Ice/Ice. Any advICE? :P
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The advantages to ice armor are that it is the only set that can soft-cap to Smash / Lethal / Energy / Negative Energy Defense on SO's without activating a tier 9 panic power. Ice is the only tanker set with a damage debuff component. Ice is the only armor set that can slow an enemies recharge rate. Ice is the only armor with two taunt auras. While Ice is not the only armor set with a Tier 9 that does not involve crashing out, it's Tier 9 is a complete invulnerability crossed with an insane heal and end recovery. Ice Armor can also drain enemies endurances, with a single swipe of Energy Absorption knocking out significant chunks of an enemies endurance bar. Ice also shares the Dull-pain advantage of Stone and Invuln sets as it's Hoarfrost power could put players at the old Tanker HP cap.
The disadvantages to ice is that it is a defense only set, which means that all attacks that do land, will be landing for full damage (minus the damage debuff). Ice armor is also one of the most endurance intensive armor sets, surpassed only by Dark Armor and Stone Armor with all toggles turned on. Granted, Ice makes up for this with Energy Absorption, but even at endurance recovery ED cap, Ice Armor still "requires" at least three enemies close by to top off. This means that single target performance in sustained fights, such as against AV's or Monsters, suffers greatly.
The disadvantages are what set most players off. Other problems have included many an Ice Tanker's reliance on the Hibernate Power. Many a team-wipe has occurred after an Ice Tank went into Hibernate and lost aggro on target since somebody else on team could out-taunt / out-damage a mob enough to draw aggro.
Then there's the late-blooming factor. Getting to defensive soft-cap on SO's involves picking up Weave from the Fighting pool and grabbing Energy Absorption. This puts most Ice Tanks blooming in the late 20's to early 30's, and will leave only Stone Armors waiting on granite feeling less protected.
* * *
So, to sum up.
No, Ice is not a bad set.
Ice is a good set.
Ice armor, as a set, involves more interaction than simply wading into a mob and hitting the attack button over and over and over and over again. It just takes a relatively long time to bloom as a set, and has some pretty hefty off-sets.
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incredibly long post ahead. |
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Thinking of pairings of course Ice/Ice is the classic example; it will offer considerable additional mitigation at the expense of lower overall damage. Ice/Stone will have excellent single target damage and good mitigation but limited AOE damage. I haven't any experience with Kin Melee but from watching a couple of friends playing it the set impresses me as a lot of flash and not much substance. |
First off while its easy to soft-cap without Fitness and CJ at 50 with IOs, during leveling you may want to pick both of them up and try to get Energy Absorption down to a perma-recharge and close to 1% def per target. (Sitting at .9% def per target would end up giving you 9% def instead of 10%, as EA hits 10 targets max)
Ice has insane aggro managment, pretty much all the time you're in a team without another tanker or a brute, you're not going to lose aggro at all, occassionally you'll lose it to another tanker who's generating more Threat than you, but the majority of the time you'll be the one taking all the hits,
Now there's the problem with Ice/ people pick up Chilling Embrace far too early in the game (its selectable at level 2) This ends up meaning that through levels 2 to 26 (Where you can have capped defense to S/L and about 30% def to N/E) you're going to be out of end, hardly and defense, and having every single mob your team fights hitting you until you die a quick death. This is the real issue with Ice armour, and its a player issue not a powerset issue, you have to be prepared to sit through 26 levels of painful, low damage, end issue, no defense leveling before you suddenly wake up and realize you're invicible. All defense-based tankers suffer from this however, its just something you have to live with.
Also people don't see the tier 9 as a useful power at first glance. "What? I can't attack with it? What kind of panic button is that?" The best kind, if you're low on end and EA hasn't recharged (Sappers for example.) if that nasty AV just broke your soft-capped defenses and hit you for a 3000 damage hit (Happens.) Hit them with a taunt, press hibernate, your end and hp will recover to full, you'll get about 5 seconds of recharge for your powers, that AV won't lose aggro (roughly 13-14 second duration on Chilling embrace.) and you'll be back in the game with a bunch of combined Insps you just made while hibernating, I personally find this the best tier 9 in the game (I'm biased though, I love ice tankers.)
Ice some people also find hard to look at, I'll admit that you don't look like a tank (for example, a Granite tank, you look like a tank.) and other sets give you the option of being able to display your fanatasic superhero costume, Ice doesn't have this, in the lower levels you can colour the armour white/grey and your costume is completely visable, but in the higher levels you just become a coloured ball of Ice, with all four toggles having a isal, and Hoarfrost and EA both having visuals, its so easy for your costumes to be obscured, I can take a guess that this is the main reason people don't play Ice.
But there's also an awful lot you can do with an Ice/ tanker, depending on how you built it, you can pump out insane AoE damage. (Ice/fire, Ice/SS) have plenty of soft-controls. (Ice/ Mace/Axe/Stone. Put everything around you to a state of sleep in Ice/Ice, omitting Icicles, you could even add Stone Mastery to have your mag 2 sleep become a mag 5 sleep stacked, enough to hold bosses and possibly AVs.) Or you could focus on stacking debuffs such as the -dmg and -rech aspects of the aggro aura, with sets like Kinetic Meele, Ice Meele and Dark Meele. And finally you can focus on being an defense-based Sapper toon by going Ice/Elec(/Mu) Ice/ is a monster people don't seem to use, because they're either seeing/wanting all tanks to be thematicly just a damage sponge, not something with so many options and playthings that almost anything is possible (Except high resistance) This, in my opinion, is close to the same reason we don't see many Dark/ tanks in the game, people have wrong ideas about what a tank can and should be.
Personally and for an example of the uses of Ice/ with other powersets, I just rolled my 3rd Ice tank (Ice/Dark, a surviability powerhouse of single target damage.)
My Ice/Ice/Ice is insane, Ice Meele is currently on the same level as Super Strength without Rage (With arguably isn't a whole lot of damage considering rage is quite possibly the most important power in SS's damage output.) with the addition that instead of extra damage (Rage) you have so much more surviability with all the -recharge debuffs (and Ice Patch, can easily be made perma with one recharge IO, possibly autohit KD, with a -90% runspeed and -50000% Jump height.) and aggro is easier to maintain.
The Ice/Kin/Soul I use is also pretty impressive, combining soft-capped defenses with stacking -tohit, -dmg and -run/rech. Once again its a case of not losing aggro, having a stupidly powerful attack and debuff chain on AVs with Power Siphon, and throwing everything to the ground with Burst, its slow to attack, feels a bit flashy, but honestly its enjoyable to play.
Finally theres my Ice/Dark/Mu that I'm planning and slowing leveling, He's going to be my powerhouse, trying to get Hasten to perma with one +recharge buff (For example AM or SB from rads or kins) so Hoarfrost can also be perma without using Purples, the idea is to sit at the HP cap with a 20% heal power on an <5s recharge, being able to drain targets End in two rotations of EA - Electric Fences - Ball Lightning in large mobs, and stacking large amounts of -tohit from /dark during AV fights. (While also draining end, generally paired with things such as Elec controllers/Dominators or anything using Kinetics, AVs end should be floored with a considerable amount of -tohit as well.)
Wow this has been some great feedback. Thanks all, much to consider now!
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Through the years Ice has largely been thought of as a pet project to round out a collection, which isn't to say the set is bad per se, it's just that there are primaries that are better.
The slows and team management aspects of IA, while very effective, are much less dazzling then shield charging into a mob, laying down burn, or having a temporary god mode.
I'd suggest trying Ice/Ice if you decide to give it a go and sticking with it to 50.
It's also a welcome addition to a glass of Scotch.
.
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Few minor corrections though the general feel of what you say I agree with 100%:|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Well, I've done ice / mace and ice / elec.
The advantages to ice armor are that it is the only set that can soft-cap to Smash / Lethal / Energy / Negative Energy Defense on SO's without activating a tier 9 panic power. Ice is the only tanker set with a damage debuff component. Ice is the only armor set that can slow an enemies recharge rate. Ice is the only armor with two taunt auras. While Ice is not the only armor set with a Tier 9 that does not involve crashing out, it's Tier 9 is a complete invulnerability crossed with an insane heal and end recovery. Ice Armor can also drain enemies endurances, with a single swipe of Energy Absorption knocking out significant chunks of an enemies endurance bar. Ice also shares the Dull-pain advantage of Stone and Invuln sets as it's Hoarfrost power could put players at the old Tanker HP cap. The disadvantages to ice is that it is a defense only set, which means that all attacks that do land, will be landing for full damage (minus the damage debuff). Ice armor is also one of the most endurance intensive armor sets, surpassed only by Dark Armor and Stone Armor with all toggles turned on. Granted, Ice makes up for this with Energy Absorption, but even at endurance recovery ED cap, Ice Armor still "requires" at least three enemies close by to top off. This means that single target performance in sustained fights, such as against AV's or Monsters, suffers greatly. The disadvantages are what set most players off. Other problems have included many an Ice Tanker's reliance on the Hibernate Power. Many a team-wipe has occurred after an Ice Tank went into Hibernate and lost aggro on target since somebody else on team could out-taunt / out-damage a mob enough to draw aggro. Then there's the late-blooming factor. Getting to defensive soft-cap on SO's involves picking up Weave from the Fighting pool and grabbing Energy Absorption. This puts most Ice Tanks blooming in the late 20's to early 30's, and will leave only Stone Armors waiting on granite feeling less protected. * * * So, to sum up. No, Ice is not a bad set. Ice is a good set. Ice armor, as a set, involves more interaction than simply wading into a mob and hitting the attack button over and over and over and over again. It just takes a relatively long time to bloom as a set, and has some pretty hefty off-sets. |
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| Ice is the only tanker set with a damage debuff component |
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| only set that can soft-cap to Smash / Lethal / Energy / Negative Energy Defense on SO's without activating a tier 9 panic power |
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| Ice is the only armor with two taunt auras |
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| which means that all attacks that do land, will be landing for full damage |
I have an ice/dark who is a ton of fun to play altho a bit weak on the endurance. Waiting till I19 to run him more, seeing if inherent stamina helps.
Ice/Ice was my first 50 back in I6 and when they fixed defense in I7 I felt like a big boy tanker, then with IO's I felt like my ice/ice was easy mode. Capped S/L/E/N then tossing in some EA makes even Cimorans a breeze to tank, and was NOT to awfully expensive to cap w/out tough/weave.
If you decide to go with /ice as the secondary I'd suggest leaving out greater ice sword this seems counter intuitive, but has been shown over an over again that the DPA is about the poorest in the game. I agree with what was said above regarding survivability and with frozen touch, the hold from my epic, ice patch, Chilling embrace there is alot of control/mitigation in the arsenal. I love my ice/ice/ice tank and I've tweeking his build with I19 coming out I'm excited to see what the incarnate system has to offer my favorite tank.
Either overlong list of "50's" or obligatory quote, your choice.
Just saw the thread, but thought I'd pop by and put in my 2 infs worth. I like Ice, but as many others have stated, you have to get past for lower levels for life to get good.
That said, I have at least 2 Ice/* Tanks, one Ice/Fire, which is very fun to run, and a Ice/Stone Melee, also fun to run (but, he's still in his 20s so a few levels to go yet). I would highly recommend both these sets. I have an Ice/Icer stuck below level 10 on some server, but this is mostly due to my own issues with Ice Melee (not to mention my own addiction to Fiery Melee 
). From what I've seen others do with Ice/Ice builds it should be good combo.
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I just started an Ice/Axe tank, and it is surprisingly fun, and it also fits my character concept too!
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I just picked up Energy Absorption on my Ice/Dark Tank, 'Oh Snow'. Fantastic combo! Roll one and love it!|
Originally Posted by Jawbreaker
Is Ice not a very good set? I have a concept i'd liek to try, was thinking Ice/stone or Ice/kin or Ice/Ice. Any advICE? :P
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DO IT!
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Ice probably could use some work at the present. It is, as others have noted, an ideal choice for a dedicated tanky-tank; it is the premier set for aggro control. Being easy to softcap, it is survivable enough in most situations.
On the other hand, it is concept limiting and rather ugly, only slightly better than Stone and not as attractive as Fire. It has endurance issues until relatively late in the game. And like any defense set, it doesn't scale down well for revisiting early-game content.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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... 26? I don't have endurance issues now that I took Energy Absorption.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
It has endurance issues until relatively late in the game.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Okay, at lower levels, I found that Ice could sometimes be difficult to play. Some of this will be greatly offset by inherent Fitness in i19. While the defense itself was nice, the occasional lucky-hit issue would mean sometimes shocking swings between "MOAR ENUMEEZ PLZ!" and "Ooh! Floor! *SMOOTCH!*"
Also, massed defense debuffs WRECK you. So watch out for the Oro Intro final mission, Cimerorans and Arachnos. If you have situations like that, eat a couple purples before charging in to minimize the chance of a debuff hitting in the first place.
Now, that said, I found that after I picked up Energy Absorption, things became MUCH easier. And counter-intuitively, they became easier as I cranked difficulty (in number of heroes) UP.
As people have said, EA is best when having 2-3 enemies in range. I've slotted for Recharge, Defense and EndMod (in that order). Right now it's recharging at about the same speed as Ice Slick so I use them as a One-Two punch. Ice Slick to keep people in range, and then EA to slurp up endurance and defense. It only becomes hairy if I get down to one opponent with a drained end bar, but that's what a few backup blues is for (rather than wasting Hibernation).
With most of my other tanks I'm relying on tools like the Energy Mastery APP to augment End Management. Even with my Stone/Dark (though he's not optimally slotted), I still have to watch it. With Ice, EA is one of the BEST tools in the game for End management on a tank. Again, the only caveat is that you need lots of enemies around.
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Yes -- once you get EA, that issue pretty much goes away. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
... 26? I don't have endurance issues now that I took Energy Absorption.
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Really, I think the largest issue with Ice Armor right now is that it's relatively easy to start stacking defense bonuses on other sets, achieving softcaps fairly handily on some, and adding healthy amounts of defense as well. This tends to diminish its value by comparison.
Because defense bonuses are so heavily relied on by the player base, when the devs want to make mobs hit harder, adding defense debuffs or to hit buffs to mobs is a go-to mechanic for the developers. -Def is a prominent feature of almost all of the mobs introduced since i9 (Cimerorans, Shivans, Vanguard, almost all Praetorian factions). This is going to diminish the value of purely defense sets.
Ice doesn't have enough going for it to offset any of this stuff. It's aesthetically annoying. It holds aggro best of any primary, but most teams don't really need that. Sets like Shield Defense have flashy and fun moves. Sets like Invulnerability have more fallbacks.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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I used to see a ton of Ice/Axe Viking-themed Tankers runnig around, but not so many these days.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
I just started an Ice/Axe tank, and it is surprisingly fun, and it also fits my character concept too!
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Ice / Stone is a ton of fun.|
Originally Posted by Jawbreaker
Is Ice not a very good set? I have a concept i'd liek to try, was thinking Ice/stone or Ice/kin or Ice/Ice. Any advICE? :P
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Also, I don't think anyone's mentioned that Ice has maximum Slow resistance, meaning you can just run right across those stupid Knives of Artemis' Caltrops and punch them in the glasses with a humongous stone mallet.
Good times.
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That's why Ice fit my concept so well; Oh Snow is a giant robot with a brain in it. Caltrops don't bother him one bit, he just stomps on them and keeps moving.
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Originally Posted by zeldo
Ice / Stone is a ton of fun.
Also, I don't think anyone's mentioned that Ice has maximum Slow resistance, meaning you can just run right across those stupid Knives of Artemis' Caltrops and punch them in the glasses with a humongous stone mallet. Good times. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I think ice is one of the better sets. My ice tank is one of my few tanks who has neither Tough nor Weave - I just didn't feel that he needed them. umm... pausing to think about it, I think my ice and stone tanks are the ONLY ones that don't have Tough or Weave (and I've played every armor set).|
Originally Posted by Jawbreaker
Is Ice not a very good set?
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I think a lot of people are put off ice (and dark armor) by the graphics. I think stone is perceived as pretty ugly also, but people tolerate it because Granite Armor is so uber.
So make an ice tank. It's a fine set.
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My join date is a bit misleading, but yes I use to see a lot of Ice/Axe Vikings themed tankers back in 2004 on my AR/Dev blaster on Champion. It definitely brings back some nostalgia that is for sure.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
I used to see a ton of Ice/Axe Viking-themed Tankers runnig around, but not so many these days.
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Ice/Stone is awesome. Fault and Tremor work great. It is a good controlling tank. It can handle almost everything thrown at it. The STF is rough versus LR, but other than that, I did not have any issues. Once I got IO's... it was even better.
I dont play it hardly at all anymore, but I have a stone/fire, shield/fire, and Fire/Ice to use. But for certain TF's, such as LGTF, I use the ice/stone. (being able to use Seismic Smash twice in one build-up is really nice and destroys almost anything....)
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
Is Ice not a very good set? I have a concept i'd liek to try, was thinking Ice/stone or Ice/kin or Ice/Ice. Any advICE? :P
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