How would you make CoH lower lvl content more fun?

konshu · 11-08-2010 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hot_Head_Mike

After rolling 4 characters threw Praetoria it got tedious in my opinion.

I didn't even get that far. I'm in the tiny community (of perhaps one) who actually prefers the old content to the stuff we've received in the last year.

konshu · 11-08-2010 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill

Villains:
Different starter zone for those who *want* to start as a villain and not in Mercy Trash Heap/Rescued by Arachnos.

A super quick interim fix I'd do is take Dr. Creed and Mongoose and turn them into additional contacts available at level 1.

Dante · 11-08-2010 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba

I'd make fitness inherent.

Sometimes I wonder if people read my posts. :P

@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk

Memphis_Bill · 11-08-2010 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante

Sometimes I wonder if people read my posts. :P

Just as an aside, sometimes I wonder if people read Dante's posts.

:P

(As an actual aside, who was doing the offline MA editor, and is it still working with the current MA?)

See my Guides and Tutorials

konshu · 11-08-2010 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_Apollon

On another thread, we talked about a way to semi-redo the older content:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=243232

The idea we had was to use AE to re-create the arcs, modernizing them. If you're serious, why not join the effort? The devs don't have the manpower to redeux old content, but we do.

This sounds great, but it's hard to coordinate it with authors and players in AE as it presently exists. Unless someone has a better plan, I'd guess the only way to signal that some arcs are a part of this project would be to add another AE keyword (like REVAMP), but from what I've seen the keyword approach doesn't work outside of a relatively small group players who know the keyword and care to give it a try.

As for individual efforts, if we weren't limited to just 8 arcs, I'd already have written a significant amount of new material for the early hero and villain contacts. I don't know how many arcs I'd have written if I had unlimited arc slots, but I'd guess at least 20, probably more. Like many here, I suppose, I've been thinking about what I'd like to see in the game since I started playing.

BTW, I don't buy the argument that the devs "lack the resources" to add to or revamp lowbie content. It's not that hard. One person could make significant headway. I think the problem is simply that they are opposed to the project; that it isn't a sufficiently valuable use of time for the company.

Techbot Alpha · 11-08-2010 03:32 PM

I'm tempted to just re-write all the old junk in my spare time, then hand it over to PS and say "Done the work, just please get rid of the old trash. Since you own this all anyway thanks to the EULA, boom. Problem solved."

Yes. I really hate the old content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Lord_Apollon · 11-08-2010 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

Sounds good. Atlas I can deal with, then move onto another.

Already started on Caitlins, as hers bothered me the most in Galaxy. Fed Ex combined with hunting hunting hunting and read this that and the other.

Techbot Alpha · 11-08-2010 04:03 PM

First arc is done;

Dicing with Devils and Death
Arc ID: 466108
Length: 5 missions
Level range: 1-14

I would advise a team for the last two missions, although hopefully it will stil be soloable. Needless to say, the last mission is a fight against a character who is criminally underused in game...as is the second mission, actually.

Oh, and devs?
Put the Girlfriends from Hell in the AE, will you?! Kay thanks bai!
*facedesk*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Agonus · 11-08-2010 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

Emphasis and addition mine. Last time I checked, Praetoria had nothing to do with the Pre-Villains, Base Game content.
I'm not talking about expansions. Im not talking about stuff that people might get, or have to pay to get. Im talking about the junk thats STILL left over from the early days that forms the core of the 'Pay to Play' game that anyone from a trial player to a normal subscriber will see.

You're missing the point. With GR, the Devs re-did the low level content with three whole new zones, multiple story arc paths, and imho very well written arcs.

And then people started complaining that there was no way to up the difficulty so they could get through that new content as fast as possible. Or that some missions forced soloing. Or that the morality of the paths are too confining. Or that the ebil fascists in power should be 100% ebil and the Resistance should be 100% good. Or whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

...-is also untrue. I don't do the Sewers because its fast EXP, although it is pretty fast as a side effect. I do it for the simple reason that I cannot be effed to go and do the stupid, brain draining tasks that the starter contacts send me on. ...

It's not the case for YOU, sure, but that doesn't change the other players who want to get to the "real" game post level 22 as fast as possible. For them, the best low level content would be big Looney Toonsian neon signs to the Sewers, with pitstops every so often inside to level up. Sorta like the farms that killed AE.

Making Stamina inherent -should- help, but well, we'll see.

Hell, I've come across far too many players who ***** about the lack of content in the game because they legitimately don't know there are contacts beyond the newspaper or radio. You could have the best written arcs EVAR but so many people want to play this game with as little reading as possible that it won't matter.

Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.

good luck D.B.B.

Techbot Alpha · 11-08-2010 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agonus

You're missing the point. With GR, the Devs re-did the low level content with three whole new zones, multiple story arc paths, and imho very well written arcs.

That only people who buy the expansion are able to play!

Ye gods! Im getting sick of having to type that phrase! Trial players, important people who are potential new subscribers and players, will NOT get the new content! They will get the old shite left behind in Paragon, or the less shite that is in Mercy.

Non-expansion players will also get this content, and NONE of the new shinies that are Praetoria. Im no arguing that Praetoria is well done. It is! Incredibly so! But why does it seem practically forbidden that that quality and tech will EVER be seen retroactively?

[Quote]
And then people started complaining that there was no way to up the difficulty so they could get through that new content as fast as possible.[Quote]

Or because, y'know, endless waves of Destroyers at even level and +1 can really hurt and get boring? Or that certain ATs find certain mobs like Syndicate too easy? There are MANY more reasons for wanting a difficulty contact that 'I want to speed run this!'

Quote:

Or that some missions forced soloing. Or that the morality of the paths are too confining. Or that the ebil fascists in power should be 100% ebil and the Resistance should be 100% good. Or whatever.

Yeah, well...that sort of stuff barely bears commenting on. Thats not anything to do with mission quality or mechanics.

Quote:

It's not the case for YOU, sure, but that doesn't change the other players who want to get to the "real" game post level 22 as fast as possible. For them, the best low level content would be big Looney Toonsian neon signs to the Sewers, with pitstops every so often inside to level up. Sorta like the farms that killed AE.

Making Stamina inherent -should- help, but well, we'll see.

Hell, I've come across far too many players who ***** about the lack of content in the game because they legitimately don't know there are contacts beyond the newspaper or radio. You could have the best written arcs EVAR but so many people want to play this game with as little reading as possible that it won't matter.

So, penalise those of us who do care and do give a damn for the sake of spiting Farmers and speedlevelers. Yes, of course, that makes perfect sense!
/sarcasm
Sorry, but I've been fighting this corner for too long to not reject that kinda stuff. I also don't buy into

Quote:

You could have the best written arcs EVAR but so many people want to play this game with as little reading as possible that it won't matter

being true at all. Arcs that are well written, dev and Player alike, get played more. Wether they give 'leet rewards' or not doesnt matter; what matters is that they are fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Agonus · 11-08-2010 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

...So, penalise those of us who do care and do give a damn for the sake of spiting Farmers and speedlevelers. Yes, of course, that makes perfect sense!
/sarcasm
Sorry, but I've been fighting this corner for too long to not reject that kinda stuff. I also don't buy into

Hey, I'm all for having the game catered to players like you and me who want story. But I'm fairly certain the farmers (who want rewards for nothing) and speedsters (who want to prove... something...) would still blow through it regardless of how well it was done.

Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.

good luck D.B.B.

Techbot Alpha · 11-08-2010 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agonus

Hey, I'm all for having the game catered to players like you and me who want story. But I'm fairly certain the farmers (who want rewards for nothing) and speedsters (who want to prove... something...) would still blow through it regardless of how well it was done.

Oh, for sure. I never questioned that. But if thats an arguement against revamped content, then we should simply never bother to have ANY new content for this game, at all, EVER, because speed runners and such will just blast through and then start whining. Again. That arguement doesnt hold true for 'New Shinies' OR Revamp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Lord_Apollon · 11-08-2010 09:37 PM

Alright, finished up the first arc.

Let me know how it is/how it can be improved:

Arc 466241 - DATA arc - Galaxy City REDEUX

Lord_Apollon · 11-08-2010 09:55 PM

Ran your arc Techbot. The little things are very very nice. 50 a day, ha!

Techbot Alpha · 11-09-2010 05:09 AM

Yeah, it was a surprising ammount of fun writing the dialogue and such. If only I had access to the I18-onwards mission tech, I could do so much more ><

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Aura_Familia · 11-09-2010 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

[I]

being true at all. Arcs that are well written, dev and Player alike, get played more. Wether they give 'leet rewards' or not doesnt matter; what matters is that they are fun.

Yeah but if it is fun AND gives leet rewards, that's a bonus.

The ITF for instance.

Also if it doesn't give an adequate reward and is a pain in the *** (NOT FUN), it will be run LESS.

See: a lot of the old COH content.

EDIT: Your AE work shames the devs even more for not revamping more of older COH.

Now that they got incarnates up and running (well soon anyway) I'd hope we have more issue splits: new content for mid-range, revamping older low to mid range stuff, and incarnate stuff.

I DON'T want to hear any longer from ANYONE that this can't be done for each issue, cause I19 proves that they can.

Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

Techbot Alpha · 11-09-2010 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aura_Familia

Yeah but if it is fun AND gives leet rewards, that's a bonus.

The ITF for instance.

Also if it doesn't give an adequate reward and is a pain in the *** (NOT FUN), it will be run LESS.

See: a lot of the old COH content.

EDIT: Your AE work shames the devs even more for not revamping more of older COH.

Now that they got incarnates up and running (well soon anyway) I'd hope we have more issue splits: new content for mid-range, revamping older low to mid range stuff, and incarnate stuff.

I DON'T want to hear any longer from ANYONE that this can't be done for each issue, cause I19 proves that they can.

Oh yeah. ITF is a very well done TF, because it's fun, not a pushover, and gives decent rewards for what it makes you do. I do have issue with the Valley of Lag, which Im still pretty damn certain could be cured by simply removing some of the damn unneccesary mobs and capes off LTs and Minion in general (only mob in game that has them) but hey, thats life.

And much obliged on the AE comment. Now that I've got the bug, im determined to re-write the lowbie content because, really, there are SO many stories that can be told all throughout the City. And I've always been a story teller. Time for me to get to work

Edit: Looking at the starting contacts....they really are terrible. Theres no plot, no cohesion...just a string of crappy, one of missions.
Gonna get rid of that, for starters. Rick Davies is next up on my hit list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Lord_Apollon · 11-09-2010 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

Oh yeah. ITF is a very well done TF, because it's fun, not a pushover, and gives decent rewards for what it makes you do. I do have issue with the Valley of Lag, which Im still pretty damn certain could be cured by simply removing some of the damn unneccesary mobs and capes off LTs and Minion in general (only mob in game that has them) but hey, thats life.

And much obliged on the AE comment. Now that I've got the bug, im determined to re-write the lowbie content because, really, there are SO many stories that can be told all throughout the City. And I've always been a story teller. Time for me to get to work

Edit: Looking at the starting contacts....they really are terrible. Theres no plot, no cohesion...just a string of crappy, one of missions.
Gonna get rid of that, for starters. Rick Davies is next up on my hit list.

I'm on Derek Amberson right now.

What I've been trying to do is adapt their current arcs into a coherent introduction story. A way to learn about the city, and the challenges within.

I also had another idea on how to use the Security Chiefs, who are currently only used for those street fighting missions. We could instead give one-off timed missions in each zone, like the missions in the PvP zones or those missions that Marcus Valerius gives.

Techbot Alpha · 11-09-2010 09:33 AM

What I'm doing with the Atlas contacts, as can be seen with Azuria, is taking the group they focus on most and actually making the arc revolve around them.

I also plan to have them introduce contacts who actually further that first story, while still providing braches to it. For example, a contact in Kings will focus more on the Skulls and who they are linked to, while one in Perez () will delve more into the Hellions and just how they aquire the artefacts that help them gain power. And then moving further up the chain, while still leaving branches open.

Edit: Rick Davies arc 'Grinding Gears' has been drafted out, I just need to get into AE later tonight and put it together. Again, I would kill for the Devs mission making tools; theres a few really neat tricks I could pull if I wasn't limited by the damn AE mechanics... Just being able to make custom mobs using the skin of NPCs would make life a hell of a lot easier...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Lord_Apollon · 11-09-2010 10:19 AM

I know what you mean. Heck, I had to make myself a Kip due to no model available.

BTW, glitch in one of the missions, it's a lvl 15 mish but the end boss is lvl 20.

Megajoule · 11-09-2010 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha

And before people say 'Oh, it has to be Dev quality though!' let me finish testing and tweaking it and then post the ID here. Then judge wether the Cryptic built junk thats still in has has any right to be there.

My model/target for my first arc was "Dev quality" - I was trying to imitate the style of the official content going back to the first few issues, and I think I succeeded pretty well. The final proof? People keep telling me it's bland, flat, and terrible.

My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City

Techbot Alpha · 11-09-2010 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord_Apollon

I know what you mean. Heck, I had to make myself a Kip due to no model available.

BTW, glitch in one of the missions, it's a lvl 15 mish but the end boss is lvl 20.

Is that in my arc, or one of the ones your working on? Oo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megajoule

My model/target for my first arc was "Dev quality" - I was trying to imitate the style of the official content going back to the first few issues, and I think I succeeded pretty well. The final proof? People keep telling me it's bland, flat, and terrible.

Ha! Yeah, that'd just about do it

Well, if theres a quality I've been aiming for other than 'Something id be happy to play many times over', it'd be the I18 and onwards arcs with the new tech and better writing. Sadly, not all that tech is mine to play with =/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Jet_Boy · 11-09-2010 11:11 AM

To me, Low level content show be about building your character up, not kicking it down... over... and over... and over again.

* End was the biggest issue to make you feel non-heroic, but I19 seems to be fixing that.

*ditch NPC attacks like -regen and anything else that weakens your already weak character, should should be figuring out you powers, not struggling to survive that guy with a knife. Don't start introducing these in NPCs until after 10th, or restrict them to bosses.

* Not ever gangster in the street has to be a challenge. In-fact they shouldn't be... most heroes/viillians at the beginning of their careers can wade through street-level thugs. Give Low level *normal* guys a fixed level and leave it. You should feel like a hero from the very start. You should be building confidence, not frustration.

And one general comment.

* In development, test every new encounter using solo controllers/doms. If you develop with IOed out, min/maxed Brutes or Scrappers in mind that's all your going to end up with. Every mission should be able to be completed - with a little thought -by any Archetype, solo or teamed

It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets

... Hit it ...

Techbot Alpha · 11-09-2010 11:27 AM

I'm pretty sure the devs dont use IO'd anything for testing. I remember during one Beta they gave us enough cash to fully TO/DO/SO characters during level bumps, so those are still the consistant norm.

And I tested my arcs using a level 14, half-redded out Claws/Invul Scrapper, and she managed alright, though the bosses sometimes made her munch insps as it should be, really. The only other units can all be encountered at their natural level range; Skulls and Hellions. The only real toughy was the end boss, who is designed to cause a bit more pause for thought. He may need a bit of tweaking, seeing as I don't know wether AE rank gives the same automatic benefits that non-AE ranks do, i.e. wether bosses automatically need more mez application than others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger

GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon

NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Torrynt · 11-09-2010 11:41 AM

Honestly, start characters at level 20. Nuke Galaxy, Perez and Skyway.

I blow through the early content because having 1-2 attacks, perhaps no AOE, and glaring holes in your primary and secondary is not fun to me. I want to play a hero and enjoy playing a reasonably fleshed out character.

My other thought is get rid of levels and make all mobs like monsters, IE even con to everyone. Minions across the board are white, lt's are yellow, and bosses are orange. Up it one in hazard zones and let people custom set in their own missions. Your levels are adding powers to your build, but then if you really like the content in Talos, you can do it. You want to experience Croatoa at lvl 1, enjoy!

It also solves the problem of developing content. It's for everyone and rewards can be set appropriately.