Change the way MM secondary power Pet buffs are applied
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-10-26 16:58 in Suggestions and Ideas
Yeah, I want such an option as well. 
Personally I think this change should be made to pretty much all such buffs for everyone, not just masterminds. However I also feel that there needs to be some sort of option to block/cancel/supress certain buffs. In particular Speed Boost and the Thermal Shields can cause problems for people on lower end computers.
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And I vehemently disagree that they should be done for all buffs for everyone - which presents a problem with the mastermind pets, as I don't believe there's any mechanism in place to really determine that (or determine "my pets" from "someone else's pets,") plus TBH I don't want that to lead into "do that for everyone."
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Personally I think this change should be made to pretty much all such buffs for everyone, not just masterminds. However I also feel that there needs to be some sort of option to block/cancel/supress certain buffs. In particular Speed Boost and the Thermal Shields can cause problems for people on lower end computers.
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I'm totally for it, and the click spam is one reason I don't roll buffbot sets. It would make teams with kins much more enjoyable too, as I hate to say the dreaded SB PLZ. Yet there does need to be some way to avoid buffing EVERYBODY.
Maybe some way to cancel YOUR buffs upon teammates, since exploits would be possible with the reverse.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Why? I fail to see how having powerful buffs (shields, speed boost and the mez protection powers) that have to be individually cast on every teammate every 4 minutes contributes to enjoyable game play. I acknowledge that there are reasons a person would not want a particular buff (hence my comment about some means of canceling or suppressing them) but I fail to see how making them easier to use would make the game worse. I'll also point out I'm only talking about buffs that can be maintained on the entire team constantly, powers like Fortitude or Forge should not be changed.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And I vehemently disagree that they should be done for all buffs for everyone - which presents a problem with the mastermind pets, as I don't believe there's any mechanism in place to really determine that (or determine "my pets" from "someone else's pets,") plus TBH I don't want that to lead into "do that for everyone."
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Balance-wise it comes out a wash. If the powers are considered balanced now then I fail to see how making them easier to use would unbalance them. If the only reason they are balanced now is that they are inconvenient to use then they aren't really balanced, they are simply inconvenient. Changing these powers to PBAoE would make them much easier to use.
It would also accomplish a second goal of evening out the solo ability of the different Buff/Debuff sets (especially for Defenders and Corruptors). One of the issues of Buff/Debuff sets is that the number and usefulness of the solo abilities varies significantly when soloing. Force Field, Thermal Radiation, Sonic Resonance and Cold Domination (to a lesser degree) are generally considered amongst the weakest soloing sets and this change would help them a lot by increasing their survivability a lot. Obviously it doesn't help Empathy and if Speed Boost was changed it would need to have no/reduced effect on the caster (as with Grant Cover).
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They're not hard to maintain *now.* In addition, I can concentrate on only a few if I so choose, or if someone comes by (they get hung up on geometry, etc) they're not SOL until the buff's back up. Plus, teams split - I don't mean heading to one side of the map vs another, but melee staying in melee, range staying at range. Individual buffs, I can hit them all. One big AOE, only some get them - or none at all. Last but not least, if I'm low on END and buffs are running out, I can re-buff the ones that need it *now* and worry about the others later. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Why? I fail to see how having powerful buffs (shields, speed boost and the mez protection powers) that have to be individually cast on every teammate every 4 minutes contributes to enjoyable game play. I acknowledge that there are reasons a person would not want a particular buff (hence my comment about some means of canceling or suppressing them) but I fail to see how making them easier to use would make the game worse. I'll also point out I'm only talking about buffs that can be maintained on the entire team constantly, powers like Fortitude or Forge should not be changed.
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I can't do that with one big AOE buff. I dislike single-big-AOE buffs. I've run rad, I've run Empathy, I know how single-big-AOE buffs work. I'd MUCH rather do the individual ones with, say, FF, Sonic and Thermal.
So, no, for me they wouldn't be easier to use.
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| It would also accomplish a second goal of evening out the solo ability of the different Buff/Debuff sets (especially for Defenders and Corruptors). One of the issues of Buff/Debuff sets is that the number and usefulness of the solo abilities varies significantly when soloing. Force Field, Thermal Radiation, Sonic Resonance and Cold Domination (to a lesser degree) are generally considered amongst the weakest soloing sets and this change would help them a lot by increasing their survivability a lot. Obviously it doesn't help Empathy and if Speed Boost was changed it would need to have no/reduced effect on the caster (as with Grant Cover). |
They're not difficult to maintain *now* on a team, they don't take all that much time to apply. I do *not* like the idea of changing them to AOEs.
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You're making a lot of assumptions about how the AoE buffs would work. Suppose they made them AoE but left the range, endurance cost and recharge time the same as they currently are? That would eliminate your ease of use objections and frankly I don't think it would affect balance at all.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
They're not hard to maintain *now.* In addition, I can concentrate on only a few if I so choose, or if someone comes by (they get hung up on geometry, etc) they're not SOL until the buff's back up. Plus, teams split - I don't mean heading to one side of the map vs another, but melee staying in melee, range staying at range. Individual buffs, I can hit them all. One big AOE, only some get them - or none at all. Last but not least, if I'm low on END and buffs are running out, I can re-buff the ones that need it *now* and worry about the others later.
I can't do that with one big AOE buff. I dislike single-big-AOE buffs. I've run rad, I've run Empathy, I know how single-big-AOE buffs work. I'd MUCH rather do the individual ones with, say, FF, Sonic and Thermal. So, no, for me they wouldn't be easier to use. |
The current PBAoE buffs (i.e. Accelerate Metabolism, the Empathy Auras etc.) are the way they are since they are (supposedly) balanced around having a limited uptime (or requiring lots of recharge for 100% uptime). The "always on" buffs on the other hand are supposedly balanced just fine as they are now with short recharges, long ranges and low-ish endurance costs (the balancing factor being that they take up two power slots). I fail to see how making them easier to use would destroy their balance (except Speed Boost, but I think that should be nerfed anyway).
When the devs made the MM upgrade powers AoE they did increase the endurance costs and I think it made sense for MMs but wouldn't necessarily make sense if other buffs were made PBAoE. In the case of MMs the increased endurance adds a tactical element to deciding when to re-summoning and/or requipping henchmen who die in combat. With player buffs I feel the element is unnecessary. Int he case of henchmen the equipment accounts for a large part of their combat capabilities so the difference between requipping immediately versus waiting until after combat is critical. For players the decision is less important, a single buff power accounts for a smaller percentage of their total team contribution so with a high endurance cost the decision would almost always be to wait until after combat.
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| Uh... how would having a team buff be AOE vs individual help soloing? Hell, those heavy-Team sets are a godsend to me soloing, as I can set up a second build, completely *ignore* those buffs and take other pools that will only help me out more - for concept or other reasons. (Presence, Leadership, Stealth, etc.) It's part of why I *like* taking them for soloing, as it is. . |
I should restate that I did ask for the ability to do BOTH ST and AoE buffs.
So when I chose Deflection Shield (for example) I get 2 icons, a ST and a PBAoE.
It is still one power and slots affect both icons. I can chose to apply a ranged ST buff (80') or a PBAoE power with a much shorter range (say 40'?).
Im not sure if there is a marker on my Pets (self_pet=1?) that the Buff can detect and only apply to those. If not it could be added
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You know that sounds like it would be hard to implement... until DP. So there is a precedent for powers that add multiple icons (swap ammo adding 4).
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Originally Posted by cybermitheral
I should restate that I did ask for the ability to do BOTH ST and AoE buffs.
So when I chose Deflection Shield (for example) I get 2 icons, a ST and a PBAoE. It is still one power and slots affect both icons. I can chose to apply a ranged ST buff (80') or a PBAoE power with a much shorter range (say 40'?). Im not sure if there is a marker on my Pets (self_pet=1?) that the Buff can detect and only apply to those. If not it could be added |
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Yes but as we say with Kheldians those powers would need to be enhanced individually.
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
You know that sounds like it would be hard to implement... until DP. So there is a precedent for powers that add multiple icons (swap ammo adding 4).
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And by doing that you can be assured that there would be a massive reduction in the potency of the powers in question. Quite possibly the only reason that the ST buffs we're talking about are so strong is because they can't be applied to the user and are therefore exclusively team support.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I was advocating making them actual PBAoEs that affect the caster. One of the things that has always bugged me about the buff/debuff sets is the huge variation in the number of powers that the character can benefit from themselves, this would definitely help in that area.
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Why? I agree there are a couple that should not affect the caster (primarily Speed Boost) but in the case of the shields I fail to see how it would unbalance the game if they were usable by the caster. In team play the difference between having the defensive bonuses for 7 members of the team versus 8 members is negligible (especially when the "weak" member will generally not be drawing significant aggro anyway). Solo it would be more useful but the shield sets are generally regarded as weak solo anyway so I think it would bring them up closer to the level of the strong soloing sets (Rad, Dark Traps, Kin), it's still not going to make them the best soloers out there, just safer. As for the mez protection ones, I can see that being a touchy subject but several Buff/Debuff sets already offer mez protection to the caster would it really break the game if Empaths and Thermal Radiators got it as well? (Clarity I think should be kept ST since Sonic already gets AoE mez protection and Increase Density I could see being unbalanced as an AoE simply because Kinetics as a whole is on the high end of power).|
Originally Posted by Umbral
And by doing that you can be assured that there would be a massive reduction in the potency of the powers in question. Quite possibly the only reason that the ST buffs we're talking about are so strong is because they can't be applied to the user and are therefore exclusively team support.
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I've heard the argument before that making those powers affect the caster would make them need nerfing and I don't buy it. Yes it makes the sets stronger solo but it doesn't really increase their team utility and these are all sets that lack solo ability.
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Just look at FF and you'll realize exactly why the ST shields will never be made into PbAoEs without some major weakening. FF would turn into automatic SO slotting level personal softcapping at all times for a pittance of endurance. Cold wouldn't be much behind it. The balancing factor behind the ST buffs is the fact that they don't make the caster unkillable.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I've heard the argument before that making those powers affect the caster would make them need nerfing and I don't buy it. Yes it makes the sets stronger solo but it doesn't really increase their team utility and these are all sets that lack solo ability.
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So what? On teams the fact that the caster isn't softcapped doesn't really matter, the rest of the team IS softcapped and it's trivial to arrange things so that they are the ones getting attacked. If the bubbles dropped as soon as the caster die and we didn't have any in-combat rezzes and the AI was decent I could see an argument that having the caster as a team "weakpoint" would make sense in terms of balance, but without that it makes no difference. Sure he's technically the weakpoint but it's trivial to keep him safe and if you fail it really doesn't matter.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Just look at FF and you'll realize exactly why the ST shields will never be made into PbAoEs without some major weakening. FF would turn into automatic SO slotting level personal softcapping at all times for a pittance of endurance. Cold wouldn't be much behind it. The balancing factor behind the ST buffs is the fact that they don't make the caster unkillable.
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Solo it makes more of a difference but I don't see it unbalance things, these are sets that don't bring a huge amount to the table in terms of soloing power, even softcapped a FF Defender is never going to be a soloing powerhouse even compared to other Defenders let alone when compared to ATs like Scrappers or Brutes.
Grant cover manages to work with teams only, so there's precedent for such a power.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
One other thing to remember is that the game engine CANNOT determine who got hit with a power in order to re-calculate the endurance costs (as you suggested).
Whether one person or 10 people get the effects of a PBAoE buff, it costs the same endurance.
So to do what you want would mean dramatically raising the endurance costs of the powers (ala the MM Pet buffs), and potentially the recharge times, making them quite inefficient to use if only one or two teammates would be getting the benefits. There would easily be times when you wanted to fire off a refresh of the buffs, but can't because it hasn't recharged from the last usage or you are too low on endurance...
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
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So don't say it? I've never typed it once in my years of play, and never intend to. And deleted my only kin/ def after two team missions of SB PLZ spam.|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
I'm totally for it, and the click spam is one reason I don't roll buffbot sets. It would make teams with kins much more enjoyable too, as I hate to say the dreaded SB PLZ.
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OTOH, I have played ice, sonic, etc. shield buffers and never been annoyed keeping a team covered.
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Hmmm, not sure that's right:|
Originally Posted by Soulwind
One other thing to remember is that the game engine CANNOT determine who got hit with a power in order to re-calculate the endurance costs (as you suggested).
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Kinetics#Repel
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Shields#Against_All_Odds
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Shields#Phalanx_Fighting
All are PBAOE's that count the number of characters near you. Repel calculates end based of targets hit. AAO calculates damage off targets near you and PF calculates Defense off allies near you.
I'm not really in favour of this change as I think the Devs would nerf the recharge to the same time as the buff lasts at least. That means that if you die early in the buff duration you have to go without. As a ST buff you can have it straight away. I also can't see them allowing it to effect he caster.
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So what? I'd be very unhappy if a level 22 FF/ Defender could soft-cap themselves with four power picks, eight slots, and 12 defense SOs when it took my /SR Scrapper nearly level 50, 12 power picks, a large number of slots I'm not going to count, and a few expensive IOs to softcap. As much as I life FF and Defenders, there's no reason they should be able to overshadow my defense set's personal survivability.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So what?
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I'd imagine /Shield users would be even more annoyed.
No thanks. I'm happy with the way things are now. Changing things to PBAoEs means that the endurance use goes way up and I can't change who gets what/when.
Losing a single pet means guarantees that I have to choose between losing more pets before recasting or else sacrificing a huge chunk of endurance to get back up to snuff.
Also speed boost and FF are fine the way they are. Changing them to AoE would mean that they would probably get 'looked at' in a bad way. I have no problems putting speed boost on my teammates manually. Did that since I joined and continue doing it now without complaint.
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But you have no problem with them softcapping the Blaster standing next to them? Not to mention the fact that your SR Scrapper has much higher damage, more comprehensive mez protection, DDR and scaling resists.
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
So what? I'd be very unhappy if a level 22 FF/ Defender could soft-cap themselves with four power picks, eight slots, and 12 defense SOs when it took my /SR Scrapper nearly level 50, 12 power picks, a large number of slots I'm not going to count, and a few expensive IOs to softcap. As much as I life FF and Defenders, there's no reason they should be able to overshadow my defense set's personal survivability.
I'd imagine /Shield users would be even more annoyed. |
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Because comparing SO grade survivability to top-end IO grade survivability makes so much sense, not to mention the fact that, in order to softcap a Blaster, you're pretty much dumping your offensive capabilities.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
But you have no problem with them softcapping the Blaster standing next to them?
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| Not to mention the fact that your SR Scrapper has much higher damage, more comprehensive mez protection, DDR and scaling resists. |
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Re-read my post. My point is he doesn't like the Defender softcapping himself but has no problem with the defender softcapping a blaster.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Because comparing SO grade survivability to top-end IO grade survivability makes so much sense, not to mention the fact that, in order to softcap a Blaster, you're pretty much dumping your offensive capabilities.
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| Right... And the Defender still has the ability to buff absolutely everyone else on the team to an obscene level of survivability. The primary weakness of buff sets (and support oriented classes in virtually every medium) is that they are not effective at personal augmentation. That's the trade off they make: they can make other people awesome, but not themselves. This game already makes support sets and ATs way more powerful than standard ATs. They don't need to be made even more awesome by being able to buff themselves as well. |
I had a quick look for a similar post but could not find one.
What I would like is for MM secondaries that have Def/Res Buffs that can be applied to Pets like Thermal and Force Field give an option similar to the new Upgrade/Enhance powers whereby we apply a PBAOE burst that applies that buff to all Pets within range (40'-60'?).
This should have a cost equal to the number of pets buffed at the standard End Cost. So if it costs 7 End per pet to apply Deflection Shield and 4 of your 5 pets are in range it costs a total of 28 End.
I would prefer an option to have both the PBAOE and ST options (pretty please?).
Now I'd also really like this same option to be applicable as a Team Only buff that is PBAOE but only affects Team Members not Pets.
This way (if you can handle the End cost) you can do a Team Chat to gather all team members around you, "Heel" your pets and then click 2 to 4 (Fire/Plasma Shield for example) buttons and everyone is buffed. Done.
Currently if using both the Def/Res buffs on a full team with a full set of 6 pets (im net getting into multi-MM scenarios) you are clicking 26 buttons to get everyone buffed (Pets = 2 buffs x6. Full Team = 2 buffs x7).
The Team Only buff could also apply to any other power set that has these types of ally buffs.
Opinions?