no, VEATs are limited to PPPs only (for similar reason why kheldians get no epics)
Let's pretend I don't know what those similar reasons are >_>
basically story wise, VEATs are supposed to be members of arachnos, therefore they can only get PPPs because they are bound to arachnos (even in the case of the ones who go change alignment)
Hmm, that seems kind of flimsy, in the first place, as a simple grunt (outside of our wily ways through our story arcs) we shouldn't HAVE a patron. We're just foot soldiers, and I thought APP were more "evolving yourself" which is why they were open to everyone instead of having to do an arc like PPP...
my head hurts... 
APPs are hero epics (even though they are sort of just generic masteries), they are still originated as hero epic pools
the patron pools are a little easier to understand as they are tied into stories involving the patrons (mako, GW, ect) and theres a little more lore behind it
while VEATs are essentially grunts, they still plant their names on the destined ones list and then eventually go through a patron arc since that is what the normal "destined ones" do
they are essentially arachnos grunts out to make a name for themselves, and that is why their origin is natural because they are supposedly put through a boot camp before they get let out in mercy to do whatever, so overall they dont have any special abilities other than the psi powers if you are using a widow
im pretty sure thats the intended background (havent read up on the lore in awhile, but im fairly sure thats more of the background why they dont have APPs)
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APPs are not available to Kheldians.
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Originally Posted by Devlin_Quaid
Hmm, that seems kind of flimsy, in the first place, as a simple grunt (outside of our wily ways through our story arcs) we shouldn't HAVE a patron. We're just foot soldiers, and I thought APP were more "evolving yourself" which is why they were open to everyone instead of having to do an arc like PPP...
my head hurts... |
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
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Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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No APPs. No PPPs. No flight or teleport power pools. On the plus side, the fitness pool is gonna work in the forms soon!
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
APPs are not available to Kheldians.
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Be well, people of CoH.
Actually, I wondered why the VEATs were natural, but especially the crab and fortunata, they AREN'T natural, one uses the highly advanced crab-pack for their "powers", while the fortunata is a psychic which is above and beyond the natural human, through one way or another...although i suppose you can't change origin after creation
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
No APPs. No PPPs. No flight or teleport power pools. On the plus side, the fitness pool is gonna work in the forms soon!
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well supposedly the widows are natural born psychics that arachnos enlists in their widow programs, very large amount of them are found by kalinda, GW, or one of the fortunatas in GW command|
Originally Posted by Devlin_Quaid
Actually, I wondered why the VEATs were natural, but especially the crab and fortunata, they AREN'T natural, one uses the highly advanced crab-pack for their "powers", while the fortunata is a psychic which is above and beyond the natural human, through one way or another...although i suppose you can't change origin after creation
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the crab spiders are techncially more of a tech origin, but they started as naturally trained wolf spiders and then when they get the respec they are essentially chosen to be able to train into one of the more advanced classes of either a bane or a crab, the backpack was added on at a later time, so while it may be tech, they started out natural, and then mechanically changed their origin to tech (however this game does not support origin changes, so they remain natural due to their natural skills they got from their arachnos boost camp training)
The only ancillary power pool that would even fit them would be Body Mastery, though, right? Whatwith Physical Perfection and Superior Conditioning, ignoring the still-out-of-place Laser Beam Eyes and Energy Torrent.
And even then, Body is the name for the Scrapper one, whereas Brutes (which Arachnos archetypes share their Patrons with) get the Tanker version Energy Mastery, right?
Personally, I wouldn't mind another +Regen/+Recov power, since their inherent would make it even more awesome. But then the whole Laser Beam Eyes thing kind of gets weird storyline-wise...
You want weird? I can summon sharks that swim through cement, anywhere.
that's weird. Laser beam eyes can be handwaved with "I got laser eye surgery." (hehe)
(Edited to seem a bit less childish)
The thing is, the Patron powers are explained during the Patron arc itself. You gained the power to summon sharks by taking the power of the Leviathan.
The heroside pools assume you are mastering powers you already have.
EDIT: I'm not against the idea of VEATs having access to the ancillary pools, especially the awesome mini-Health-Stamina that is Body/Energy Mastery, but the others in this thread have already supplied the reason that the VEATs do not have it.
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Your Origin is just that: your origin. How you get your powers after starting out does not have to have anything to do with how you started out. If Batman can gain Technology powers (such as in Kingdom Come where his body is broken down after decades of crime fighting so that he has to resort to robot armies and power armor to continue) or Science & Magic powers (such as becoming immortal through the Science & Magic blend of the Lazarus Pit in Superman & Batman: Generations), then there's nothing wrong with your Natural Arachnos Soldier gaining Technology powers by having the backpack grafted onto his back.|
Originally Posted by Devlin_Quaid
Actually, I wondered why the VEATs were natural, but especially the crab and fortunata, they AREN'T natural, one uses the highly advanced crab-pack for their "powers", while the fortunata is a psychic which is above and beyond the natural human, through one way or another...although i suppose you can't change origin after creation
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Same goes for if they suddenly are able to fly or move at super speed (say, from the effects of being bombarded by the magical energies of Circle of Thorns' attacks or something about Cobra spit/venom triggered a post-Origin mutation). Your Origin doesn't have to be a straightjacket for your character's entire career.
As far as the PPP go Mace mastery makes sense for Banes/Crabs but the others aren't really themed for the widows/forts unless you count Soul mastery.
APP would be good in some fashion especially if superior conditioning and physical perfection transferred to Veats.Fireballs,lightning bolts, and trow shark just doesn't sit too well with me.
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That's true. Using the Marvel character Spider-Man as an example, he's science origin, but in his storyline, also has tech origin (made webshooters and other gadgets when required), mutation origin (mutated to gain evolved powers, but lost them later), magic origin (totem powers that be evolved his powers again). I suppose he hasn't been shoehorned into natural origin yet, haha.
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Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
Your Origin is just that: your origin. How you get your powers after starting out does not have to have anything to do with how you started out. If Batman can gain Technology powers (such as in Kingdom Come where his body is broken down after decades of crime fighting so that he has to resort to robot armies and power armor to continue) or Science & Magic powers (such as becoming immortal through the Science & Magic blend of the Lazarus Pit in Superman & Batman: Generations), then there's nothing wrong with your Natural Arachnos Soldier gaining Technology powers by having the backpack grafted onto his back.
Same goes for if they suddenly are able to fly or move at super speed (say, from the effects of being bombarded by the magical energies of Circle of Thorns' attacks or something about Cobra spit/venom triggered a post-Origin mutation). Your Origin doesn't have to be a straightjacket for your character's entire career. |
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Arc: 60092 - Supa Rumble in the Park
"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
-- High-Roller
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Have you read the definition of Natural Origin as it is ingame?|
Originally Posted by Devlin_Quaid
Actually, I wondered why the VEATs were natural, but especially the crab and fortunata, they AREN'T natural, one uses the highly advanced crab-pack for their "powers", while the fortunata is a psychic which is above and beyond the natural human, through one way or another...although i suppose you can't change origin after creation
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In the world of CoH some people have psionic potential and the Fortunata training unlocks that.
As for Soldiers, yes they use weaponry, but they're specially trained in it's use, and the bulk of their abilities are explain as Training, not granted by their equipment.
Well within the confines of a Natural hero.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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It's also explained through the VEAT arcs that your trick the system to become a "Destined One", which is why you become a Patron's apprentice in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Tidbit Jr.
The thing is, the Patron powers are explained during the Patron arc itself. You gained the power to summon sharks by taking the power of the Leviathan.
The heroside pools assume you are mastering powers you already have. EDIT: I'm not against the idea of VEATs having access to the ancillary pools, especially the awesome mini-Health-Stamina that is Body/Energy Mastery, but the others in this thread have already supplied the reason that the VEATs do not have it. |
The technical answer is that because VEATs were ABLE to run the Patron arcs, just like all villains could, they were likely given the PPPs because it would not be justified to not give them the standard reward for running that mission arc.
Of course, that doesn't answer why the Kheldians aren't justified in recieving the same reward for running that same mission, arc, but there were different devs involved in making that decision than the devs who made this decision.
I'm still hoping that eventually a way of unlocking the Patrons will come over to hero side, and when that happens, with luck Kheldians will recieve the same benefit from doing it as everyone else.
APPs, however, were designed at the same time as Kheldians, and it was explained at their release that the Kheldian larger selection of powers was meant to get them all the way to 50, unlike the other ATs that only had a power selection to 40. (The cap at the time) VEATs are designed the same way. While they have access to PPPs, they do not need them, and have sufficient choices in their Primary and Secondary that they can easily avoid ever taking them.
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As others have said above, I've always felt that your Origin is the explanation for your powers at level 1. As you progress in levels and get more powerful, gaining the ability to fly and so forth, the methods and devices you use to gain those powers are independent of your origin. The Patrons are in fact a good example of this, it is obvious that Ghost Widow's Soul Mastery and the magical attacks of the Mu are Magic origin, while Black Scorpion's mace is Technology. But any existing villain of whatever origin can go to that Patron and have their power transferred. |
Originally Posted by Devlin_Quaid
Actually, I wondered why the VEATs were natural, but especially the crab and fortunata, they AREN'T natural, one uses the highly advanced crab-pack for their "powers", while the fortunata is a psychic which is above and beyond the natural human, through one way or another...although i suppose you can't change origin after creation
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The point is that when you join Arachnos, you ARE Natural. You don't have any super powers, that's why you're joining an organization of evil and oppression instead of setting out on your own to subjugate humanity. (Or protect your home from do-gooders and vigilantes, whatever your motives) By the time you get the Crab Backpack, you have already undergone 24 levels of training as a frontline footsoldier. And while the Widows all must show some type of psychic aptitude to get chosen for the program, I'm going on the assumption that drugs and devices are used along with training to develop these latent abilities.
Putting it another way, my perfect test for a Natural is to ask your self this question: If you take away all his gadgets and gizmos, all of his relics and spells, will he still kick your butt? If the answer to this is yes, then he's Natural.
Take away the Crab Spider's backpack, or the Fortunata's mental blasts, and they're STILL trained soldiers.
Quick Query. Can VEATs use APPs? For some reason I don't remmeber seeing it in my last respec, and need to know how to plan for i19...