fix it so we are not forced to pick the t1 power in our secondary

The job of a [main] tanker on the team is to hold the aggro. Whether or not they take a tool available to them to do that is their choice, but it doesn't quite change their role (as per the intent of the archetype). No inherent on an archetype relies so heavily on taking the secondary tier 1 that allowing them to skip it would be so detrimental to the job of the archetype.

You still see people play Masterminds with no pets, for instance, so why not let people choose the second power they want?

What my opinion itself boils down to, if you care, is this: the only differences that an archetype needs between primary-secondary should be that a powerset should be weaker as a secondary than a primary, and the powers other than the out-of-the-gate tiers 1 and 2 should come later.
(EDIT: So don't put words into my mouth about my opinion besides that.)

Yeah, that was what I was thinking too. It was clearly sarcastic.

As to the OP, meh, your suggestion is over the top, but having the second secondary open I could deal with. Do I feel it's needed...? not really, but do I care enough to argue..? nope.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Actually, my Fire/TA controller uses Entangling Arrow all the time, for one reason: It triggers Containment damage. If I have one LT left in a mob that isn't already mezzed, I'll hit it with Entangling Arrow so both Ring of Fire and Char will deal double damage, instead of just one or the other.

(I kept the ST immobilize for added single target damage, I'll probably respec out of it once I get to APP levels and can take a blast, but or now it's still useful)

It also gives you a place to put 4 Enfeebled Operation for some S/L defense, without gimping damage output, since it doesn't deal any.

And like I mentioned before, Gale gives you a way to get some cheap KB protection through slotting Kinetic Crash.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

And yet they can live so much better WITH them.
Force bolt - minor damage, keeps a wide range of enemies away from an AT that starts off VERy squishy (as well as their very squishy pets.)
Gale - Same (plus helps in positioning.)
Sonic Siphon - Good -Res debuff, so it helps the AT do more damage *from level 1.*

All these powers are good both solo and teamed.

As opposed to:
O2 boost - useless solo.
Deflection shield - OK, as a MM, most *assume* you start off with a pet. (Some choose not to, admittedly, for whatever reason.) However, FB is still more useful and ensures you have SOME sort of offensive power - that also acts defensively in keeping things away.)
Sonic Barrier - Useless solo.

The devs cannot guarantee you'll be teamed (or teamed with anyone that pays you the least bit of attention.)They CAN guarantee you'll be solo - you are the second you log in.

The pattern holds true pretty consistently:
Stalkers - should be blatantly, mind-numbingly obvious
Defenders - Another obvious one. No defender has zero capability to attack.
Blasters - "Keep away" power early on for a squishy AT.
Tankers - Usually a minor attack - that's quick, low END and now has bruising.
Controllers/Corruptors - Again, solo utility. Yes, even Trick Arrow (gives Illusion a immob, which it's missing, gives Plant -fly so other powers can work on the target on the ground, stacks with other immobs overall and helps with Containment.)
Scrappers, brutes - Basic, most common (typically smah/lethal) def or resist (except regen, which starts the +regen.)
Dominators - fast, Dom-building attack at range
Masterminds - Powers that affect or protect you that can be used even if you can't summon pets for some reason. (END, for instance.)

Looking specifically at controllers and corruptors:

COLD DOMINATION - Infrigidate. Lowers enemy damage, speed and recharge. T2: Ice shield, useless solo.
EMPATHY - Healing aura. Self heal. T2: Heal other. Useless solo.
FORCE FIELD - PFF. Self protection. T2: Deflection shield, useless solo.
Kinetics: Self heal. T2: Siphon Power. The self heal is more immediate at keeping you alive, both depend on tohit.
Rad - Radiant aura, self heal. T2, Radiation Infection. Lowers DEF and ToHit, but a constant END drain. Self heal is usable in low END "must survive" situations regardless of enemy.
Sonic - Sonic Siphon - Lowers enemy Res, player does more damage. T2: Sonic Barrier, useless solo (for all sets - Mind, for instance, doesn't get a pet, so it never becomes useful solo.)
Storm Summoning - Gale - KB, minor damage. Useful solo for survival (and minor damage.) T2: O2 boost, useless solo.
Thermal - Warmth, PBAOE heal. T2: Thermal shield. useless solo.
TA: Entangling arrow. Stacks with immobs, provides -fly to sets that don't have it (Plant) and provides an immob to sets missing one (Illusion, Mind.) T2: Flash arrow. Doesn't help Plant (-fly from Ent.Arrow,) for instance. Not as much utility.


So /unsigned, as always. "Fix it" implies the design is broken. It is not.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I take it you didn't notice the post he was replying to specifically mentions only Brute / Scrapper secondaries for the very reason you specify?

Sorry, must have misread your exchange with Fire, but it sounds like we are all pretty much on the same page. The "questionable" picks that are out there can be addressed individually in a case-by-case manner. I don't see any reason to use a Giant Hammer on the problem by allowing players to skip the "Tier 1" choice. That forced choice simply has to be a "no-brainer" like it is for the majority of character combinations. It is certainly not broken like the OP seems to feel.

So, because we disagree with you we are wrong?

Hmm. I smell farmyard odour.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

In some sets (storm summoning being one of them) it probably wouldn't be enough to just swap the first two powers.

Actually, storm summoning is a bit of an odd case, since it seems to me like a LOT of the powers are situational and playstyle dependent. At least the first 3 powers are. To really get to a no-brainer power in storm summoning you might have to go to steamy mist or freezing rain. And even those two wouldn't make great tier 1 powers. Steamy mist has too high of an end cost, and freezing rain is too powerful for a tier 1. I'm honestly just not sure what to do about storm summoning. Maybe one of the powers would need to be buffed a bit? Give gale some more damage, or make O2 boost an AoE.

For most sets that have this problem though, the fix would be a lot easier I think.

Yeah, well, look at who said it.

As far as a second build letting you skip it, as mentioned elsewhere? By that time you're 10. Think of it as a free set of slots to go somewhere else if you don't think you'll need it any longer.

See my Guides and Tutorials

O2 boost is also mez protection (disorient/sleep,) +PER and END drain resist. That's not becoming an AOE.

See my Guides and Tutorials

This seems to be the crux of your argument - that even if a power is useless to a playstyle in general, it is essential to have offensive power {even though blasters only get ST immobs in the secondary} at the start.

My counterargument is one described well enough in the game itself:
When all else fails, you have only your two fists to depend on.


And let's be fair - those mandatory, essential-at-level-one powers become obsolete around the same time you can no longer brawl enemies in submission.

Oh really.

A self-heal is obsolete?
HIDE is obsolete? (You know, one of the essential powers for *every single stalker* out there?)
An/another immobilize is obsolete?
An attack (EVERY Defender and tank) is obsolete?

YOU may CHOOSE not to use it for some reason, but they are far from obsolete. My blasters will still use the level 1 immobilizes at level 50. My tanks still use the level 1 attacks. My scrappers and brutes quite OBVIOUSLY still use the level 1 shields. My defenders certainly use the attacks. And yes, I still use Gale.

See my Guides and Tutorials

If mentioned elsewhere, I am missing where it was said (or if in another thread). Didn't mean to repeat and was just throwing out options for both sides.

But for other builds as an option, this would still force your primary build to have things like hide. So you get 10 lvls of experience with the T1 and then have a better (not the best maybe) opinion if you still want it or not. Changing builds at 10 shouldn't be much of a hassle for slotting either. And getting to 10 isn't a very long trip to make IME.

Of course, there are older toons that may want to change builds and have multiple IOs sets they want to keep, but that is another thread.

I'm fairly sure you don't get any points for arguing against a case I didn't make. I don't remember saying that a self-heal is obsolete - always, unconditionally. Nor did I say so for hide. Or immobilizes.

Then again, assumed it didn't need saying.

The fact is, you are arguing, or from where I'm standing, convincingly appear to argue, that usefulness, or obsolescence, are objective. The fact that you choose to utilize every first-tier secondary power forced on you is utterly irrelevant. No single player, yourself certainly included, has the authority to dictate another player's playstyle. Certainly, I may choose not to use the mandatory power, as I often do. And yet I cannot choose not to take it at all. I cannot choose to take another available power in its stead. I can choose to play your way. And I ask to choose not to.

Nobody argues against a Tanker's choice not to take Taunt if he didn't want it. Nobody argues against a Mastermind's choice not to take his pets, should he not want them. And nobody would argue against a Stalker's choice not to take Hide. Nobody except you.

And you're not quite that important.

What was your statement?

No elaboration. You have declared unilaterally that those mandatory, essential at level one powers become obsolete, and do so rapidly.

So which "mandatory, essential at level one powers" are you referring to? Because from playing, oh, EVERYTHING, none become obsolete.

But you can, of course, imply that it's suboptimal by declaring powers obsolete. I am not dictating anyone's playstyle. I am arguing against a change that is, at the least, pointless and at worst damaging to certain powersets or ATs. I'm arguing at the baseline of play, not the person who (for instance) decides to try to IO out a Stalker's defense and offense and try to run without Hide.

Now think of the reason WHY that is. It's been spelled out in the thread before.

I have never argued against a Tanker's choice not to take Taunt. I'm on record, as can be searched easily on these forums, as *suggesting* someone take it when first playing a set to see if they feel they need it. Nor have I ever argued against petless masterminds. Don't imply by positioning that I would take such stances.

Hide, however, is *essential to the functioning of that AT.* While not all secondary tier-1 powers are at that level of important, it does do something many of them do - It sets up a key state for the AT. Others maintain a base level of playability through a level of defense (of various types, including immobilizing or knockback, yes) or resistance Who made that decision? The devs. And, chuckles, they *are* that important. They have set up powers at level one to ensure soloability and specific minimums for the AT or powerset. It may be self defense. It may be offense. It may be a self buff/heal.

And you, chuckles, are saying they're wrong. And have yet to prove that case.

To use your own statement, you're not that important.

See my Guides and Tutorials

See my Guides and Tutorials

Sure you can. Make sure you never take any passive or toggle with a taunt aura and never attack anything. There ya go, tauntless tank.

Even then you're not tauntless. You have brawl. Brawl will trigger gauntlet. Gauntlet applies the "taunted" status to an enemy. (Plus, of course, you *must* take an attack on both Tanker and Brute ATs, which will also trigger it.) You may not be *using* it, but you still have the ability to taunt.

Though you did see precisely what I was saying - and the devs will build tank sets with the assurance that, yes, you will be drawing aggro to you in some form (which Fury should be the obvious example of.)

Similarly, with the forced secondary Tier1, they know you're going to be able to defend yourself (or mitigate incoming damage in some way, even if it's killing faster - the Hidden status from Hide, or Sonic Resonance's -res from Sonic Siphon.) So they can go from a base set of assumptions.

(Flip side being "... which they couldn't do with the alpha, free-choice build.")

And *that* is my point behind arguing against making the tier1 secondary power non-optional. Yes, in some cases it makes little difference (Defenders - they're both ranged attacks,) in others a severe one. But it still gives a basis for saying "this character, on its own, can solo from level 1. It has offense and some sort of defense/mitigation."

See my Guides and Tutorials

I was speaking subjectively - there is no power in the game that a player will not consider useless or unnecessary. The lack of consensus on value of any power makes determining an objective value impossible. I believe I stated it clearly enough in my previous post - I am spelling it out now.

Are you arguing against the change because it would facilitate creation of suboptimal builds? Because if that's the case, I do have to warn you that you're standing on treacherous ground.

And how do you determine the baseline? If you define it by present state, doesn't that mean that any change to gameplay would be detrimental by virtue of deviating from that baseline?

The only argument I see beyond "I use all my T1 powers, therefore any change is unnecessary/detrimental" is that it serves to reinforce the secondary powerset's role as secondary which is a non sequitur.

The secondary powerset already has lower effectiveness index as well as having a slower unlock rate. The issue of having to take a power at all is irrelevant to the argument presented.


I challenge you to demonstrate a significant difference between a tank, mastermind and stalker skipping taunt, pets and hide respectively in terms of their archetypal role. In each three scenarios, the power{s} not taken are pivotal to the archetype.

They have, however, yet to appear in this thread and corroborate your statement, especially as countless previous decisions have since been reevaluated and adjusted. Until such time, I must admit difficulty in accepting you as their spokesman.

Each archetype is designed to be soloable, despite varying effectiveness in doing so. That I agree with, in both factuality and desirability. What you are arguing for, however, is that every build must be soloable, regardless of a player's own choice of playstyle.

You just made the case why there should be an option to T1 Secondary! (Or, at least why some T1 Secondaries need a buff.)

'Some sort' of mitigation is not 'effective' mitigation. Entangling Arrow immobilizing one of three minions does not stop it from shooting at you and does not mitigate the damage from the other two minions. Give me a second attack, please, or a heal, or a shield. Give me a hold to actually stop the attacks of that minion. Even Gale is more helpful than that.

That's a severe case. There should be no severe cases. When you can say, "This character, on it's own can solo very easily, but this one very difficultly", then there needs to be some sort of redress.

It does, however, allow you to pull away and keep that third minion from attacking further, or getting into typically more damaging melee range. Incoming damage is thus reduced, survivability increased. It also provides an immobilize option for two sets (Illusion and Mind) distinctively *lacking* it, and sets up containment for all Control sets.

Or, to take another example - Gale pushes back and knocks down enemies (min/lt) while doing damage (and preventing them, or most of them, from being able to do so for a period of time.) O2 boost does *absolutely nothing* for the player. Which is a better universal option? (not "do min/maxers like this more than that.")

Show a secondary where that's the option - where the first option is not also an attack. (Since you've just asked for gale)
See above - one that affects YOU,
See above.
See above.
[/quote]
Even Gale is more helpful than that.[/quote]

Which, strangely enough, is one of the powers being complained about. Which is it?
Which, entangling arrow or gale?
And there are none.
Incorrect. Should my controllers solo at the speed of my scrappers or tankers? Should my Emp/Rad? No. Should all the combos within an AT solo at the same speed? No. At that point, just get rid of ATs and powersets completely and make them all animation options - sounds like a damn boring game. Should they be *able* to solo? Yes. And they all can.

My Earth/FF solos much slower than my Fire/SS tank. I do not call my Earth/FF "broken," nor do I feel it needs any redress - any more than my Fire/SS needs to be nerfed to compensate.

See my Guides and Tutorials

The issue of having to take a power at all is irrelevant to the thread's argument about having to take a power....

A tank does not need to take taunt. The power is NOT pivotal to the archetype, as taunting itself is built in to the AT's other powers. Your premise there is flawed badly.

The Mastermind, at least, gets closer to the argument. Yes, they can skip pets, however they're still able to defend themselves, attack, and progress in the game from level 1 onward. They can leverage the debuffs to increase their survivability... part of which is designed into that first tier-2 power.

A Stalker not taking hide will, however, find themselves at a great disadvantage. Not only can they not start at Hidden status for an attack, but they become much more vulnerable - and the other part of their AT-defining power, Assassin Strike, a four-second interruptable single-target attack, becomes nearly impossible to use until well into the game when other defenses are in play... *assuming* you have a defensive set. That's a *big* sign pointing at Hide being deemed necessary. The devs have indicated the essential need of hide for the AT not just by placing it first in that Tier2 power, but by making it an END-cost-free toggle.

If all you'll take is a specific redname statement in this thread, then we're through, as nothing can be argued with you.

Dev design > player choice. I highly doubt they want unsoloable characters, given their choices (those made rather obvious by even a cursory look at what they've given us in the game.)

Oh, wait, you won't listen to anyone who (a) doesn't agree with you or (b) isn't a redname, that's right.

See my Guides and Tutorials