Revamping old content: should the devs devote the resources?

I just want to get an overview of the community's sentiments on this issue.

Should the dev team devote resources to revamping old content?

Some things to keep in mind as you answer the question:

First: what do we mean by revamping?

When I say revamp, I don't mean an all-new, all-revolutionary transformation. We'd still have the same villain groups (though we might see some new members), the same repetitive maps (though, again, we might see some new ones), and the usual array of mission objectives (FedEx, Kill Boss, Escort, Click the Glowies).

What we would get would be missions, story arcs, and Task Forces rewritten and redesigned to be tighter, more engaging, and (hopefully) more fun; branching dialogues and choices that affect the outcome of missions (ala Going Rogue); and zones redesigned to be more fun and, where needed, more accessible (i.e. vault and auction access, stores and trainers in better locations, and so on).

Basically, what we would get would be similar to the Hollows makeover in iss 12, the redesigned Positron's Task Force, and content generally updated to the current standard of Going Rogue.

(For those of you who were unimpressed with the Hollow's makeover or who've been disappointed with the new Positron TF or Going Rogue, hold on to that feeling. It's probably a good indicator of the experience you'd get from this sort of revamping.)

Second: revamping old content means less new content

Keep in mind that dedicating resources to revamping old content means shifting them away from creating brand new content. So every redesigned mission we get means there's a new mission we didn't get, and every redesigned zone we get means there's a new zone we didn't get.

Of course, redesigned content does kinda sorta count as new content (you're getting new text, new objectives, new branching dialogues, etc.), but ... well, take that as you will.

And I'll go first.

Personally, yes, despite the down side, I do think the devs should dedicate some resources to revamping old content. I think it would make the game more fun for a large portion of the existing playerbase--a majority of whom seem to be altaholics who unavoidably end up going back through and playing the same content over and over--and I think it would help attract and retain new players.

Of course that is just speculation on my part. Reasonable speculation, I think, but still, just speculation. (Which is actually why I'm making this thread: to see what everyone else's reasonable speculations are.)

I don't think I'd like to see one big overhaul, ala Cataclysm in WoW. That would basically mean we'd get little to no new extensions or expansions for a long period of time, and I like getting that new content too. It would also be only a stop-gap: eventually that new, exciting overhaul would get old and feeble too.

I think what might work is if the devs made revamping old content a permanent part of their process: basically create a small "legacy team" or "damage control" team whose job is to go through old content, start with the greatest egregiousness, and rewrite and rebuild. This would be an ad infinitum proccess. Let's face it, everything gets old; as the game keeps improving in new areas, the legacy team would keep going back and updating the weakest existing content to keep pace with the new stuff.

This would slow down the pace of new development, but it would mean a slow-but-steady--and continual--improvement in the existing game. And, yeah, I think that trade-off would be worth it.

So I've talked enough. What do you guys think?

To a point, yes.

On the one hand, I did not (and still don't) like some of what happened to the hollows. Too *much* was introduced there. "Defeat 10 Trolls/Defeat 10 outcasts" used to be fairly fast. Now you have to go farther out to find the groups (and find enough of them for the defeats.) On the other hand, mission placement is (generally) better, and the hospital and trainer are definite improvements.

I'd argue, however, that "revamping old" does NOT automatically mean "less new." Heroside, there are heavily underutilized zones that are perfectly fine, design-wise, but absolutely barren content wise - even though they certainly have stories behind them. Dark Astoria's the poster child for this, and I've proposed content additons for Crey's Folly recently as well (and Boomtown farther back.) All of that content would be new - in an old zone.

They're like a notebook with nothing written in them, maybe the first page used. Revamping would be filling in more pages.

Villainside... villainside needs more new. Somewhere ELSE to go (and I don't mean Praetoria) besides Mercy with Kalinda/Burke. You CAN shoehorn it in there, but part of why i don't tend to make new villains (and level existing ones slowly) is the same-old Trash Deco, grey-on-grime look which just gets depressing to play in. Heroside has multiple paths to go through. Villainside is the same-old, same-old.

Everything else? Do it on a case-by-case basis. I generally like Synapse, for instance, but others complain about it. The Shard TFs need work. I'd love to see the Hollows trial tweaked slightly so it doesn't need to keep 8 people through the whole thing (a team of 4 would be ideal - I've seen more of these fail from just one person dropping than anything, percentage-wise.) Minor tweaks can be done (with maintaining story coherencey and flow) I'd think without having a big impact on new content. Major tweaks would have to come more slowly.

See my Guides and Tutorials

If they had effectively unlimited resources, sure why not.

Since they don't, and with Praetoria neatly short-circuiting the dire blue side and repetitive red side 'early game' content (which was my main complaint), I'd prefer they make 'new' stuff.

I'd say they need to hire another writer or two and task them with nothing but playing through old missions and arcs, feeling the tedium, spotting the plot holes and re-writing them purely textually. Even if the old game never got any of the new tech (like dialogue trees) I would still like to see the actual briefings, debriefings, clues and NPC dialogue. This would also include scrapping or rewriting pointless "your princess is in another castle" missions where you go to a warehouse, but don't find anything out, costing you a pointless trip.

And for Pete's sake! Either KILL Unai Kemen or at least stop him from sending me to three different dimensions three consecutive times for absolutely no reason!

Revamping old villain groups is not a high priority to me, and revamping old Hazard zones, while I would very much like to see it, feels like it's out of the scope of this thread, as that's NEW content altogether.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

No. Just add more villain stuff.

At the very least, I think they need to spruce up the level 2-15 content for both blue- and red-side. I've had friends that have come onboard with Going Rogue, fall in love with the mission content, then make a new hero or villain and... *splat*.

Had another thought on this topic today, really more of a summation of what's been talked about so far, but it still put an interesting spin on things for me, so I thought I'd share.

Maybe it would behoove the developers, as they move ahead and try to keep City of Heroes running for another five years, to make infinite replayability part of their development strategy. Essentially, just what we've been talking about, going back through the game and revitalizing old content to make it fresh again.

In most MMOs, play leads up to some sort of ad infinitum (or ad nauseum) endgame, such as raiding. And for most MMOs, this fits their inherent playstyle: players create one or at most a handful of characters and then play them to max level, then want more to do with those characters.

Players play that way in City of Heroes too (at least as much as possible without a real endgame), but they also seem much more inclined to go back, roll up new level 1's, and play through the game a second, third, fourth, or thirtieth time.

Basically, City of Heroes inspires rampant altaholism, and I wonder if it would help the game to fully embrace and exploit this bit of its underlying psyhcology. It might also help CoH stand out from the pack. "In other games, you get to the end and all there is to do is raid. In our game, there is no end. Every time you create a new character, you have a whole new game to play through, because we strive to make City of Heroes Infinitely Replayable."

Yes and no...

Personally, I'd like to see Dark Astoria, Crey's Folly, and Boomtown revamped into Co-Op zones, more or less. Each would have missions for heroes and missions for villains and missions for both groups to work toward or at cross purposes. No PvP in the zones themselves, but global "In Zone" buffs that can be shared between the sides if they both have the same objectives completed, or grant one side or the other a higher bonus. Sort of a PvEvP tug of war of objectives.

However, I think these objectives should definitely be tied to the hero and villaingroups in the respective zones. So having Fifth Column and Council missions in Boomtown where villains can help one side or the other or try to destroy them, and heroes are just flat out to break both groups, for example. And Dark Astoria finally exploring the rituals and the monstrosities that occurred there, with Villains trying to capitalize on it and heroes trying to contain it.

Add in some temp powers as rewards for repeatable missions (Hero arc in Astoria granting a holy shotgun power or a mystical protection spell, while villains gain some measure of control over BP enemies in a temp pet power) and run with it.

Do I think -all- the old content needs this sort of attention? No. Most of the content is just what it needs to be, heroside. A Hero being asked to check into events and stopping the bad guys. Villainside could use some separation from the Arachnos Plot, but just adding in -new- content would handle that quite nicely.

I'd love to see new villain content be added in while making the co-op versions of Astoria and the others, just to give villains a bit more content than they currently have. Three issues of that and maybe the divide won't be quite as massive!

-Rachel-

Absolutely we need to revamp, but not to the exclusion of new content. I think a balance can be found. As the games storyline progresses, some older content will be come. . . Well "Old" really. Classic intro arcs for new toons have been played and replayed so many times that they have lost their magic. Many players have been bringing in new toons over and over since the games inception and those players really deserve new paths. We should logically be able to assume that some of these arcs which have been completed so often are now accomplished facts in game history and those contacts are on to dealing newer and bigger threats, arising from their original missions. Older established toons should be able to do both the new "Old" and old "Old" arcs via flashback. . .

New contacts and new arcs need to be integrated into the system as well, to provide completely new paths as well to reflect the "New" history.

Thats my opinion anyway.

Remember that not ALL old content would need to be revamped. Simply arcs that aren't up to par. And even then, not all the missions in said arc would need to be altered in any way. Going through and including some of these more up-to-date mission styles into old content would be refreshing to see. So, say only 20-30% of all missions are given a face lift. I think that's manageable over a few issues. And thats being light. If I were to be optimistic I'd say 50-75% of all missions over one or two updates.

Oh and can we PLEASE bump Vahzilok to levels 10-30. seeing them own my poor level 1's *** has upset me from day 1... with crossbows! when does a doctor use a crossbow?! (/rant)

By the way, I feel that a purely textual change which didn't actually alter mission structure in any way might be a very cheap solution. Sure, it's not the BEST solution, but having someone worry only about narrative consistency and not about breaking and having to re-playtest missions might at least be feasible for a single guy to do with little supervision.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Oh dear, you've gone and makde me break out the caps lock, haven't you?

REVAMPED CONTENT IS NEW CONTENT!

*Ahem* Now I shall elaborate.

The vast majority of Bluside content atm is incredibly old. About 90% of that content is also incredibly dull, boring and badly written. Taking that old rust and scrubbing it up, making it shine again? That takes all the 'old' out of it and makes it new. For the simple reason that arc and contact overhauls will, or rather should, make it unrecognisable from the dross it was before.

Ideally, each zone should have an underlying theme, if you will, something both The Hollows and Faultline do incredibly well. Faultline is probably the better example, as you go from ignorance when you enter to fully understanding the messed up history of the zone by the end, and helping resolve it.

Atlas Park, for example, could focus on the gang-war between the Hellion and Skulls, introducing some main players (The Skulls leader brothers and maybe a Hellion boss too). The contacts could then introduce you to someone in Kings Row, who had you investigate further and start knocking the gangs heads together. In doing so, you'd also learn of the groups allied to them, and realise just how big this drug-war cartel is. Either the Trolls or the...other group (cant remember if its Family or Outcasts) would be your next targets, giving you a choice, and then moving on to The Family and Tsoo as the big players, bringing the whole arc to a sweeping conclusion.

And then you realise in the zone after that ends that, heck, the drug wars are a small problem (which should seem ironic, if done right) and you've yet to even scratch the surface of the Cities problems.

So, YES. Revamps are good, especially when the early content has as much rust as it does.

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I'd like to see:
The L1-15 blueside content revamped.
Revamp of Dark Astoria (lot of potential)
Minor rebuilding of Boomtown, add 2-3 contacts there.

I'd say yes. Not sure where to start the whole process but obviously the reason Praetoria exists is because people where sick and tired of the same content between 1-20. I started out on COV and moved to COH later so I was thrilled when they introduced Burke to the mix in Mercy. I was so tired of doing Kalinda's repetative SNAKE missions I have never chosen her as my opening contact again. Blue side I'd like to see them do a few more early evel story arcs like they have red side. They don't need to be long or offer up huge amounts of reward merits but give us a story instead of a series of unrelated missions designed solely to get us to level 5 when our contacts ship us off to Kings Row.

Throughout (level 2-50) can we cut back on the FEDEX/Talk to missions and the street hunts please? A few I'd particularly like to see disappear include the "Talk to the Perez Park Security Chief" mission you always get around level 7. Your normally getting this from a contact in Kings Row which forces you to head back to Atlas Park only to discover he wants you to head into Perez and defeat 10 COT... Oh yeah at level 7 I REALLY want to venture into Perez and battle COT after trying to scurry past huge mobs of Hellion, Skulls or Vahzilok all with at least one boss in there and all bent of sending me to the Hospital in Atlas... I have a habit, since it became available, of talking to the Security Chief and then dropping that mission as fast as possible .. so I can get back to KR and do mission I actually WANT to run. Lets see what else do we have. 10 Outcast in Steel Canyon, 10 Trolls in Skyway, and of course almost every contact in Striga sends you off to defeat 10 Council or Banished Pantheon before they will even think about giving you an actual door mission. I don't mind one of these now and then IF it fits into the story line.. Question 10 Council to discover the location of the secret base... but a lot of these, especially at low levels seem to be designed more as mindless errands with no real purpose other than .. "Oh by the way we have OUTCAST in Steel Canyon".

I agree with Sam Tow that some other missions, like Unai's, need an overhaul as well. He sends me to a world filled with Warwolves to plant beacons and I no sooner come back and my very next mission.. go back and fix the beacons I JUST put there? i have a better idea .. contact the company that manufactured the things, since they are obviously junk, and make them send in a team to fix the mess they created in the first place.

I realize assets are limited and no one wants to see any new content or new powers, ect sidetracked but when possible try to update some of the old stuff and make it NEW as well.

Opps forgot one.. I have suggested this before but it never hurts to squeek LOUD and LONG. :-D

Do something with the costume missions at 20, 30 and 40.. as they stand they are nothing but a bunch of street hunts and most people do one of two things.

1. Go to a zone where the villain group in question is easy to find and many levels lower than they are so they can quickly plow through it and get back to making their new outfit

Or

2. When available just drop the mission without ever leaving the tailor shop and hit the costume dsigner.

What I suggested a while back was door missions that actually make you feel like your helping Icon instead of just playing bully for hire.

Level 20.. BLUE SIDE I'd love to help you out with a new costume (hero's name) but the Tsoo hijacked my delivery truck and I have no ink to dye fabric the right color. Can you lend a hand in recovering my property? MISSION SET in Steel Canyon and you enter a darkened warehouse and battle Tsoo and click on 3-4 glowies along with defeating the Tsoo leader that engineered the hijacking.

Level 20 .. RED SIDE I could use a hand (villain's name) the Family has a huge warehouse filled with stolen fabrics. If you can get in there and steal some for me it will definately help me cut costs. MISSION SET in Cap Au Diable and you enter and defeat the Family guarding the glowies to earn you 2nd outfit.

Same sort of thing could be done at 30 and again at 40 so instead of mindlessly street hunting the Hero or Villian actual feels like they are helping the tailor and earning another outfit. YEAH I know "supposedly" we are beating up 30 Tsoo to make them stop harrassing the Tailor but that feels more like me being a hired thug than a hero.. works okay Villain side (HEY I AM A HIRED THUG lol) but seems more like I'm being a bully than a hero and if it changed thats 3 less street hunt missions I HAVE to endure on both sides

The Costume missions (Hunt 30 $faction) and Aura missions could be dropped entirely and replaced with something better that unlocks both at the same time.

I've said this before but I'll say it again. The least they could do is make it so people stop referring to the 5th Column as "those guys who got their butts kicked by the Council", and also remove that bit of dialogue from that old woman in Atlas Park who spouts nonsense about the Council killing Atlas in the 1950's.