Brute most on par with Scrapper Damage levels?
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2010-10-03 12:23 in Brutes
SS/Shields but you have the recharge issue you mention. Fires DOT scales with fury which makes them pretty close when averaged out but I don't know the actual numbers off the top of my head.
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
i have a elec/FA brute that is close to my buddy's spines/FA but WAY more survivable. the 734pt healing flames every 15secs makes him tougher than most people realize. build up+lightning rod+burn=WIN. but heads up i pretty much only farm with this guy. here is a build if you wanna check it out.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Karma 2 Burn 2: Level 50 Mutation Brute
Primary Power Set: Electrical Melee
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Charged Brawl
- (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage
- (39) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance
- (39) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge
- (40) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (40) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (40) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
- (A) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (11) Impervium Armor - Resistance
- (19) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Eradication - Chance for Energy Damage
- (3) Scirocco's Dervish - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (3) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (9) Endurance Reduction IO
- (46) Cleaving Blow - Damage/Endurance
- (50) Cleaving Blow - Accuracy/Damage
- (A) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage
- (5) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Endurance
- (5) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge
- (7) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge
- (7) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Kismet - Accuracy +6%
- (9) Kismet - Defense/Endurance
- (43) Gift of the Ancients - Defense
- (43) Gift of the Ancients - Defense/Endurance
- (A) Impervium Armor - Resistance
- (11) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (A) Miracle - Heal/Endurance
- (13) Miracle - Endurance/Recharge
- (13) Miracle - Heal/Recharge
- (15) Miracle - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (15) Miracle - Heal
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Miracle - Heal
- (17) Miracle - Heal/Endurance
- (17) Miracle - +Recovery
- (48) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
- (A) Impervium Armor - Resistance
- (19) Impervium Armor - Resistance/Endurance
- (48) Steadfast Protection - Knockback Protection
- (50) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
- (A) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod
- (21) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge
- (21) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Endurance
- (48) Endurance Modification IO
- (A) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Endurance
- (23) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge
- (23) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage
- (37) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (39) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge
- (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage
- (25) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance
- (25) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge
- (37) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (37) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod
- (27) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge
- (27) Efficacy Adaptor - Accuracy/Recharge
- (50) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
- (A) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage
- (29) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Endurance
- (29) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge
- (31) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Recharge
- (34) Scirocco's Dervish - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (36) Scirocco's Dervish - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (31) Recharge Reduction IO
- (31) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (33) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (33) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (33) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (34) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (34) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (36) Recharge Reduction IO
- (36) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage
- (42) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance
- (42) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge
- (42) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (43) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (A) Healing IO
- (45) Healing IO
- (45) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod
- (45) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge
- (46) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Endurance
- (46) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
- (A) Range IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
Level 6: Ninja Run
You forgot energy melee as a set that brutes have that scrappers don't yet. Just for completeness - I don't think it actually does outdamage anything a scrapper has access to.
In any case, outside of shield defense, brute and scrapper damage is still close - due to resists my stone melee brute still outbursts and outdps's my broadsword scrapper against anything not Carnie. My ss/fire can clear an entire +2 spawn in the time it takes said scrapper to kill a Council robot lieutenant.
Since not every scrapper is shield defense pairing shield defense with any brute primary and keeping your fury high should get you higher than the 'average' scrapper. However, you *will* lose a damage competiton to any scrapper who IS using shield defense and there's nothing you can do to change that. The design decision with GR was to make scrappers the top melee DPS AT in the game and changes were made accordingly. Hard to fight against that.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Um, I know that it is pre GR, but BillZBubba had a few spreadsheets out that compared brute and scrapper damage output, and brutes won. Not by much, but they put out more.
Now, that said, with GR, brutes got cycled down a little bit. Not really much, just put them back in line with how they should have been in the first place. Now scrappers are still a bit squishier that brutes, but put out a bit more damage as brutes damage caps out a bit lower and the highest fury levels are harder to reach. Brutes are a bit more reliable on damage than previously, with fury degrading more slowly.
This is all pretty common knowledge at this point.
What it all really comes down to, you shouldn't notice a big difference between scrapper and brute damage. If you get a good brute next to a crappy scrapper, the brute will outdamage him, and vice versa. Now, if you get a really good maxed out scrapper and a really good maxed out brute, on a single target, the scrapper will outdamage the brute, but not by a whole lot.
So if you are looking at a brute on par with scrapper damage levels, well, all of them are, at least they are close enough that if you play it right you really won't notice the difference.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
Dark Melee comes out on top a lot, but it is dependent on many targets in range of its boost damage power/rage/etc. I have good luck with my 50 that has SS, tons of recharge, and double stacked rage.
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The biggest difference you will see between a Brute's damage and a Scrapper's damage is if they are on a team, and their damage is being buffed. The Scrapper will quickly pull ahead under those conditions. Then again, the Brute will be getting better defensively.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
So if you are looking at a brute on par with scrapper damage levels, well, all of them are, at least they are close enough that if you play it right you really won't notice the difference.
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I would honestly say that the concensus seems to be that Super Strength and Stone Melee do the most damage for Brutes, while Broadsword or Katana is in the lead for Scrappers. Since they cannot be compared directly, there is probably some disagreement about which is the stronger. I suspect it isn't all that great a difference, though, Dark Melee, Fire Melee and Kinetic Melee all seem to have been studied extensively, and it doesn't look like there's an advantage one way or the other. (KM does have much better damage boosts on a Scrapper, but it's said to have relatively low damage otherwise. So this may be a situation similar to Super Strength)
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Than doesn't make any sense at all, Brutes have a much higher damage cap, which will keep them pretty even on teams. Scrappers will still pull ahead on single targets as long as the crits pile up. The changes to brutes allow scrappers to pull ahead on single targets now, but again, it's really only going to be noticeable by the terribly anal. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The biggest difference you will see between a Brute's damage and a Scrapper's damage is if they are on a team, and their damage is being buffed. The Scrapper will quickly pull ahead under those conditions. Then again, the Brute will be getting better defensively.
I would honestly say that the concensus seems to be that Super Strength and Stone Melee do the most damage for Brutes, while Broadsword is in the lead for Scrappers. Since they cannot be compared directly, there is probably some disagreement about which is the stronger. I suspect it isn't all that great a difference, though, Dark Melee, Fire Melee and Kinetic Melee all seem to have been studied extensively, and it doesn't look like there's an advantage one way or the other. (KM does have much better damage boosts on a Scrapper, but it's said to have relatively low damage otherwise. So this may be a situation similar to Super Strength) |
As far as the general consensus on what puts out the most damage, I will wait til someone puts out a new spreadsheet. The last ones showed that many common held beliefs on damage output of certain sets was flat wrong.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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It actually makes perfect sense and is exactly what happens. A Scrapper with 95% socketed and 100% from external buffs will out-damage a Brute with 95% socketed, 150% Fury, and 100% from external buffs. This is because the AT damage modifier is so much larger for Scrappers than it is for Brutes.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Than doesn't make any sense at all, Brutes have a much higher damage cap, which will keep them pretty even on teams.
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Smite for Scrappers = 82.58 Base
- Adjusted for Criticals = (82.58*1.075) = 88.77
- Base socketing + 100% external buff = (88.77*2.95) = 261.88
Smite for Brutes = 55.05
- Base Socketing + 100% external buff + 75 Fury or 150% damage= (55.05*4.45) = 244.97
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Um, I know that it is pre GR, but BillZBubba had a few spreadsheets out that compared brute and scrapper damage output, and brutes won. Not by much, but they put out more.
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Now, let's compare these skills with a 5 target Soul Drain and the exact same external damage buff. The Scrapper takes off even faster in this situation because of their high AT damage modifier and 1.0 self buff modifier. This means that Soul Drain is adding not only more +damage, but it is also manipulating a higher base number.
For Scrappers:
- Base socketing + 100% external buff + 5 target Soul Drain = (88.77*3.95) = 350.64
- Base Socketing + 100% external buff + 75 Fury or 150% damage + 5 target Soul Drain= (55.05*5.25) = 289.01
If by internalized damage buffs you mean SS/Rage, Dark Melee/Soul Drain, Scrapper/Build Up, I think those spreadsheets did. But they were contested for various reasons, discussed, changed for alternate recharge, discussed more. In general they were an interesting look at the two ATs. They were well researched, documented, even if no one agreed completely with the results.
What is more to the point these days is how damage modifiers and caps have changed in i18. It has been said above that scrappers now pull way ahead in ST. I am running a Dark Melee Brute right now, a ST set if there ever was one. I would love some feedback (if someone has the numbers at their fingertips) about how that ST brute stacks to scrappers. Not that it would send me to an alt, I chose this guy as my badger after careful thought, and am very happy. Still trying to come up with an I/O build plan though.
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Again, you forget the damage cap. Receiving the same amount of buffs, yes, the scrapper still does more damage. However, if you get on a team that is buff heavy, it is more than possible for the brute to catch up, as the brute has more room to accept those buffs than the scrapper does. 275% more, iirc. Even taking into account fury, that leaves @125% more bonus damage buffs the brute can receive after that scrapper has hit the cap. So yeah, like I said, the brute can still stay pretty close to equal. And, even using your numbers, the average joe isn't going to notice 17 damage difference.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
It actually makes perfect sense and is exactly what happens. A Scrapper with 95% socketed and 100% from external buffs will out-damage a Brute with 95% socketed, 150% Fury, and 100% from external buffs. This is because the AT damage modifier is so much larger for Scrappers than it is for Brutes.
Smite for Scrappers = 82.58 Base
Smite for Brutes = 55.05
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
If I recall correctly, those spreadsheets also included Gloom, as they were a comparison of optimal DPS chains. They also did not include internalized damage buffs, which heavily favor Scrappers for both Burst and sustained DPS.
Now, let's compare these skills with a 5 target Soul Drain and the exact same external damage buff. The Scrapper takes off even faster in this situation because of their high AT damage modifier and 1.0 self buff modifier. This means that Soul Drain is adding not only more +damage, but it is also manipulating a higher base number. For Scrappers:
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Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
They even included impossibles like Scrapper Strength, just to be insanely thorough.
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Thanks for the kind words, BC. I am working on an update to those threads, but unfortunately it's very slow going due to real life and all of my in game time being used up farming for Rmerits to convert to HVmerits for two PvP IOs in prep work for I-19.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
They even included impossibles like Scrapper Strength, just to be insanely thorough.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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For those interested in Bill's 2nd, er original post lol (This is the take 2)|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Here we go again!
On the last run, there were complaints that gloom was problematic due to its rather high DPA. No problem. All power pool attacks are now ignored. Others stated that such high recharge rates were unrealistic. Fair enough. Now only level 50 basic IOs are used. No hasten. Most attacks are slotted 1acc/1end-red/1rec-red/3dam Several high recharge are slotted 1acc/1end-red/2rec-red/2dam Buffs (blindingfeint, followup, rage, souldrain, buildup) have 3 rec-red I did not include DualBlade combos I did include Quills for Spines (1end-red/3dam) Brutes on average do 3.177% more damage than scrappers. Scrapper SS is 11.626% better than Brute SS. This is due to rage being almost perma and granting a higher buff plus scrapper AT mod being higher. Brute FM does 15.606% more damage than Scrap FM because the extra DoT damage is affected by fury but not affected by criticals. Similar issue with Spines. Here is the much cleaner spreadsheet. And here's the new chart: <font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> Powerset DPS EPS Brute Fiery 172.6 3.1 Brute Energy 157.5 3.3 Scrap Energy 151 3.3 Scrap Claws 149.6 2.9 Brute Claws 149.5 2.9 Scrap Fiery 149.3 3.1 Brute Warmace 148 3.7 Brute Dark 143.7 3.1 Brute Martial Arts 143.7 3.6 Scrap Strength 142.1 2.9 Scrap Dark 141.6 3.1 Scrap Martial Arts 141.5 3.6 Scrap Warmace 141 3.7 Brute Stone 137.5 3.5 Scrap Dual Blades 136.3 3.5 Brute Dual Blades 134.8 3.5 Scrap Stone 131.8 3.5 Brute Katana 131.2 3.2 Brute Battleaxe 129.3 3.2 Scrap Katana 128.6 3.2 Brute Strength 127.3 2.9 Brute Broadsword 124.9 3.1 Scrap Battleaxe 123.3 3.2 Scrap Broadsword 121.7 3.1 Brute Electric 106.6 2.9 Scrap Electric 103.6 2.9 Brute Spines 93.4 1.6 Scrap Spines 80.1 1.6 </pre><hr /> |
And yes Bill, thank you, this has helped me (and I am sure others) into a new alt.
We all eagerly await your next methodically mad post.
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I never forget the damage cap. You can at least admit that Scrappers will attain their damage cap far more often than Brutes do. And when the Scrapper is not only more damaging when at it's respective cap, but reaches that peak faster and more often, there WILL be a damage discrepancy on teams that is certainly noticeable for the "average joe."
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Originally Posted by _Deth_
Again, you forget the damage cap.
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To some extent, this depends on teams/play styles, yes?
If you are not playing your arch-type exactly as proscribed, weird things start to happen. And seriously we all know Scrankers, Tankers that do not taunt -Trappers?- (off subject slightly, but you get the point), and Brutes that do really weird things (faceplanting constantly is not a good Fury building strategy)
also, teams can give buffs, or not, even if they have them available. How many of us have had end heavy toons, with a kin on the team, and no SB coming? It's happened to me. Other players do not always play their Archetypes to the strategical best.
In essence, without custom building your teams, and then playing a certain way, there is quite a bit of slop in the theoretical setup.
For me, this is why I build concept toons that make me happy. I pick A design/costume/theme, take a quick look at stuff like Bill Z Bubs info above to nudge my decisions by being informed, then slide down thru character generation and hit the cities running.
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The damage cap was lowered when Fury was changed. |
Originally Posted by _Deth_
Again, you forget the damage cap.
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As it stands now, the Brute will do SLIGHTLY more damage than the Scrapper at the cap, but not once you factor in Criticals:
Scrapper = 1.125*500% = 5.625
with Critical = 1.125*500%*2 = 11.25
with 5% chance of Critical = 5.625+5.625*0.05 = 5.90625
with 10% chance of Critical = 5.625+5.625*0.1 = 6.1875
Brute = 0.75*775% = 5.8125
And remember that 100% of that 775% is base damage, and another 150% is Fury. So you really only have about a 525% damage boost to hit the cap, compared to 400% for the Scrapper. The Brute will be falling behind until you hit the 400% mark, at which time the Brute will merely catch up.
(In fact, looking at it further, it seems like the Scrapper is catching up, until he hits +200%, at which time he pulls ahead of the Brute with max Fury. Then at +400% the Brute begins to catch up again. Honestly, Fury itself has a bigger effect than that, since it's more likely you will maintain Fury between 65% and 75% rather than keep it at max)
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It most certainly does, which makes the argument that Scrappers receive more benefit from externalized +damage particularly valid. You aren't always teamed with a heavily IOed Kineticist that is spewing +damage buffs all over the place. You will, however, often be teamed with players granting some form of +damage, whether that's Forge, Accelerate Metabolism, Pain Bringer, World of Pain, Fortitude, or the soon-to-be ubiquitous Assault from the Pool Powers.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
To some extent, this depends on teams/play styles, yes?
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You won't always have +damage on a team. And even if there is an AT that grants +damage on a team, you can't always rely on being the recipient of that buff. So saying that it doesn't matter that a Scrapper receives the most benefit for externalized +damage because a Brute can eventually catch up after +400% is trivializing how often and how much +damage is granted when teaming.
Edit-- And just to add, red inspirations span solo and team play. I love popping these things on my Scrappers... not so much on my Brutes.
I always pop reds when they drop, or save the big ones for the boss battle. Although I mostly stock purples when rolling out, cause I play tanky.
Not having looked carefully at the underlying math, I will take your arguments at face value. Given the facts as you state them it does seem that, finally, a scrapper seems to indeed be doing more damage, consistently, more than a brute. Gratz, in fact, that is how it should be. When you give something up (health, armors) you should get something back. I will finally consider 50ing a scrap. Now, back to those spreadsheets to look for what kind, Mwah hah hah.
Still want my claws/shield scrapper.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Lol don't hold your breath...
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Still want my claws/shield scrapper.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Personally I take a composite value derived from paper analysis and what is actually achieved in game to determine how brutes and scrappers stack up against each other.
While the pre i18 paper analysis showed that brutes should be doing more dps the reality is that in the st test thread using in game metrics no brute is anywhere near the top. I suppose it could be argued that no one is out there min/maxing their brutes like they do their scrappers, but I doubt that is true.
The i18 changes will result in ensuring that no brute will ever be anywhere near the top. That isn't a bad thing because they are tougher. However, I think that brute damage was overstated pre i18 and was far more likely to be the result of brutes having access to some superior sets compared to scrappers (like stone, ss, and old EM). Such sets just hit so hard and are restricted only by recharge, which is something that many subjective observations will fail to take into consideration.
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How did you get those in game metrics? Please share them with the rest of us. Every bit of testing I did in game with my brutes and scrappers matched up with the paper analysis I did for the "results are in" threads.
| using in game metrics no brute is anywhere near the top. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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So Bill Z, that thread that Blue posted where you talked damage figures vs. Brutes and Scrappers, was that pre-i18? If so, I would imagine that those figures would most likely drastically change....right?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
How did you get those in game metrics? Please share them with the rest of us. Every bit of testing I did in game with my brutes and scrappers matched up with the paper analysis I did for the "results are in" threads.
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it was pre- i18
Hello all, I've been wondering a few things since GR has come out and has invited the mixture of Hero and Villain AT's. I'm wondering, out of all the powersets given to Brutes and Scrappers, which powerset is actually more benificial to a Brute and brings a Brute more in-line with Scrapper damage output? Considering both primary and secondary sets in pairing.
I wonder this, because Brutes and Scrappers share ALOT of powers together, however, there are a few that they don't share, such as in primaries... for Brutes, at least for now, that's: Super Strength, Stone Melee, Battle Axe, and War Mace. After looking at all of the damage differences between Scrappers and Brutes, it looked as though we'd be outclassed by a Scrapper in damage relatively easily if/when using the same primaries that they have access to, with only "Fire Melee" being possibly equal thanks to the DoT being affected by Fury levels. So, in my mind, that meant that our hopes would rest in Battle Axe, War Mace, Super Strength, and Stone Melee.
After doing some slight comparing of damage between AT's using those four "Brute-unique" sets to a couple Scrapper sets, it looked as though Super Strength was the only set that could actually compete with Scrapper damage levels, and that was mostly thanks to perma-Rage and Rage stacking. I also felt that SS needed to be paired with one of these three secondaries in order to do it: Fire Armor, Shield, or ElecArmor. However, Scrappers do ALSO have access to those same armor sets, and as for Fire Armor and Shield, they do get better +dmg benifits from them which would greatly increase their damage output over a Brute. When pairing a Brute and a Scrapper with Elec Armor (which meant the Scrapper could not greatly benifit from a +dmg boosting Armorset), the values seemed alot more even, furthermore, the SS Brute benifited "slightly" more from the increased recharge from LR, since many of the Brutes biggest attacks are so slow to recharge in comparison to a Scrapper (ex: KoB = 25 seconds, while HS= 14 seconds).
Anyways......I didn't do any real "conclusive" testing or serious number crunching, and that's why I'm here. I want to see if anyone knows if there is any Brute-set that can really compete with the damage output of a Scrapper. Is Super Strength the only one? Or is it not even a competitor and I'm just confuzzled? Maybe I am mistaken, and Brutes already easily compete? Lol...ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions on what set would be best for a Brute who wants to attempt to "outdamage" the average Scrapper build?
Thanks!