Ethical choices I've wanted to make but couldn't


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO View Post
What ethical choices would you have made in the game if it let you?
If I were interested in a complex ethical weighting system for my actions I wouldn't be playing a superhero MMO.

*shrug*


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Here's the thing Sam. You're going to re-write your toons' motivations whatever missions you go on anyways, why are you worried about how the comic book inspired in-game story goes?

Heck, why even do missions in-game, barring the ones where NPCs specifically call your toon out? If I was going to go for the sort of toon that you're going for, it'd be pretty easy to focus entirely on street sweeping regular and hazard zones to "prove" their strength.


 

Posted

There is ONE mission where I really, really wanted to take a third option, and that was the end of Tillman's arc. I wanted to kill the target. When my options were "give her to Mother" or "Let someone who regularly aids murderers go free," I really just wanted to shoot her in the face and be done with it. In the end, I gave her to Mother, because you can't tell me "I protected that girl and kept her hidden while she murdered people, but I'm totally not responsible for those murders even though I actively worked to keep the police from stopping her" and expect me to let you get away. That's the thing about the Black and Black morality... Even when I believe the enemies that my side is doing bad things, I still feel obligated to take down the enemies because they're doing horrible things, too.



That said... I see Lord Recluse as somewhere between Lex Luthor and Dr. Doom. Even people like The Joker recognize that these are the top dogs around, and other villains don't mess with them, and they work with them when the price is right. And this isn't a question of loyalty to their organization, but it's the simple factor that working with Arachnos is all upside. Luthor loves hiring mercenaries, and he doesn't have a reputation for betraying them at first convenience like, say, Magneto does. With Archnos, like with Luthor, you know where you stand: As long as they're getting their money's worth, you're gonna be fine. And what's your last real task in the Rogue Isles? It's not "Become Lord Recluse's best friend." It's "Show Lord Recluse that you can't be treated like an underling anymore." Consider this line from the end of Black Scorpion's patron arc.

"Through your long struggle you have become a true villain, wielding power over all and beholden to none. Go now, and work your terrors upon the Earth!"

This says to me that your goal has ALWAYS been to be out for yourself. And come to think of it, you can go through the entirety of the Rogue Islands fairy easily without doing a SINGLE job for Arachnos. From the start you get the option of Kalinda OR BURKE, with Burke being a more Mercenary path. And in each zone, you choose your contacts. You can work for the Goldbrickers, the Sky Raiders, and the Family as you level, and probably others I'm forgetting.

Yeah, while the Rogue Islands clearly show that Arachnos is top dog and that the ultimate status symbol in the isles is being an Arachnos "Patron", it's pretty easy to go through the isles without working for Arachnos until Patron Power time.


So while I agree that Praetoria is very heavy in the forcing you to choose sides, I disagree that the Rogue Isles make you do so.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnGeist View Post
Consider this line from the end of Black Scorpion's patron arc.

"Through your long struggle you have become a true villain, wielding power over all and beholden to none. Go now, and work your terrors upon the Earth!"

This says to me that your goal has ALWAYS been to be out for yourself. And come to think of it, you can go through the entirety of the Rogue Islands fairy easily without doing a SINGLE job for Arachnos. From the start you get the option of Kalinda OR BURKE, with Burke being a more Mercenary path. And in each zone, you choose your contacts. You can work for the Goldbrickers, the Sky Raiders, and the Family as you level, and probably others I'm forgetting.

Yeah, while the Rogue Islands clearly show that Arachnos is top dog and that the ultimate status symbol in the isles is being an Arachnos "Patron", it's pretty easy to go through the isles without working for Arachnos until Patron Power time.


So while I agree that Praetoria is very heavy in the forcing you to choose sides, I disagree that the Rogue Isles make you do so.
---

I think the arcs for Soldiers and Widows reflects this as well. From the very beginning, you are told you are "the one" and that you are a special case, not a normal soldier or widow. You go on missions against Arachnos in order to safeguard your identity and improve your chances of becoming "the one".

While there are not many missions with moral choices in these arcs, they are not "march to the Arachnos Piper" missions, either.

I really think the devs could come up with some missions to challenge your sense of morality, and I think they should. Some of my best face to face missions in both fantasy and superheroic rpgs have been ones that challenged the player's sense of his own goals and morals.

One particular issue stands out in my rpg history. Faced with the choice between risking betraying his party by breaking character in an undercover situation and eating what the player character thought was roast halfling, though only one player was really in the hot seat, the entire gaming group, including those not actually playing in the scenario, enjoyed the players vain attempts to find a middle ground that didn't betray anyone and didn't make him eat halfling. Eventually he chose to eat halfling, only to be told it was roast orangutan... cooked by halflings, to be sure, but not actually halfling meat. Of course, this doesn't cover the full permutations of the mission, but it does give you some idea of how much fun giving moral choices to players can be.

His comment to me upon my 'reveal' was, "You B*stard!" mainly because I had him from the beginning, and guaged his reactions perfectly.

In a computer game this sort of thing is a bit more difficult, but I still think it's possible. Maybe a challenge to the creativity of the devs, but if they don't like challenges, why do they work on these games in the first place? Hum? (oh, for the big bucks? really? LOL)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
So long as my characters who did the arc remember being told about Tyrant's and Dominatrix's extracurricular activities, it's there. There's no retconning. That's just more of Cole's massaging of the history! (Also, have you done the Power arc where you confront Duncan? Seriously, they don't say it directly, but she's in an inappropriate relationship with Cole and probably Anti-Matter too.)
.

uhhh there's a arc that says cole train screwed his grand daughter?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnGeist View Post


That said... I see Lord Recluse as somewhere between Lex Luthor and Dr. Doom. Even people like The Joker recognize that these are the top dogs around, and other villains don't mess with them, and they work with them when the price is right. And this isn't a question of loyalty to their organization, but it's the simple factor that working with Arachnos is all upside. Luthor loves hiring mercenaries, and he doesn't have a reputation for betraying them at first convenience like, say, Magneto does. With Archnos, like with Luthor, you know where you stand: As long as they're getting their money's worth, you're gonna be fine. And what's your last real task in the Rogue Isles? It's not "Become Lord Recluse's best friend." It's "Show Lord Recluse that you can't be treated like an underling anymore." Consider this line from the end of Black Scorpion's patron arc.

"Through your long struggle you have become a true villain, wielding power over all and beholden to none. Go now, and work your terrors upon the Earth!"

This says to me that your goal has ALWAYS been to be out for yourself. And come to think of it, you can go through the entirety of the Rogue Islands fairy easily without doing a SINGLE job for Arachnos. From the start you get the option of Kalinda OR BURKE, with Burke being a more Mercenary path. And in each zone, you choose your contacts. You can work for the Goldbrickers, the Sky Raiders, and the Family as you level, and probably others I'm forgetting.
so basically the entire city of villians game was a training session to becoming a villian


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dz131 View Post
uhhh there's a arc that says cole train screwed his grand daughter?
The old character description for Dominatrix could be taken that way.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
So long as my characters who did the arc remember being told about Tyrant's and Dominatrix's extracurricular activities, it's there. There's no retconning. That's just more of Cole's massaging of the history! (Also, have you done the Power arc where you confront Duncan? Seriously, they don't say it directly, but she's in an inappropriate relationship with Cole and probably Anti-Matter too.)

Your hero is into some kinky stuff with his granddaughter.
Two things. First your character was never TOLD about it. It was implied in the biography, nothing more.

Second: Don't ever call Cole that. I've never thought of him as a hero, much less -my- hero. That's pretty mean of you. =-(

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
Honestly, I think the Power Path, where you take all the "heroic" options is a significantly more ethical path than the Responsibility path. You get to confront Duncan and while she talks (or more likely sleeps) her way out of trouble with Cole, you get to make dialogue choices where you disavow being in it for fame and power.
I definitely agree that all paths have -SOME- level of heroic nature to them.

The following descriptions describe PCs, not NPCs or contacts.

The Wardens are trying to stop evil and save people... Pretty much only people who sympathize with them, but they do try to save them. They are forced to do some things that will get people killed, however, to accomplish their goals.

The Crusaders ostensibly have a good goal: Freeing Praetoria from the grip of tyranny. They just go about it in the most awful way possible; Killing civilians rather than combatants to prove that Cole can't protect his people.

The Power Loyalists are out for fame and fortune, but they're more than happy to help people along the way. Some even want to help people and pick up fame and fortune as very nice bonuses. Though they are willing to let some evil go unpunished to maintain their status.

The Responsible Loyalists are also, ostensibly, interested in helping people and protecting the civilians. But they, too, are forced to allow some evils to thrive and let good people suffer to protect larger groups of people.

Wardens: Expose the Truth.
Responsibles: Save those you can.
Crusaders: Fight the Tyrant.
Powers: Make the front page with your heroic acts.

All of them -can- be noble individuals when viewed from the right angle. And all of them can be vilified.

Wardens: Start Riots.
Responsibles: Support the Tyranny.
Crusaders: Blow it all up.
Power: Do whatever it takes.

So yeah. In some ways I -really- like Praetoria! in others I hate it. But you can play an ostensibly heroic figure or Villainous figure in any of the paths. A Warden can be out to cause chaos, rather than save people. A Crusader can be interested in taking out a Tyrant. A Responsible can be a Stormtrooper. And a Power Loyalist can be a hero in the right place at the right time. A Warden can be a spy, getting messages to the good guys. A Crusader can be a Monster interested in destruction. A Responsible can be a good cop on a corrupt police force. and a Power Loyalist can be out for fame with no regard for who he steps on along the way.

I love that aspect. The part I hate is the instant polarization to the Resistance Cause some people have that blinds them to anything but a few cliches.

=-3

-Rachel-


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
Crusaders: Blow it all up.
Suddenly I realize the Crusaders need a contact named "Mad Stan."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalantia View Post
Dante is unabashedly heroic (at least in 1, 3, and 4), just snarky about it.
I think you mean he's ABSOLUTELY CRAZY ABOUT IT!


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City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.