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If you look above BaBs has pointed out why he is opposed to this. It would take a huge amount of extra animations for this to work properly and look right, which could be better spent on new power sets or tech.|
Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick
cool
anyway, if u want a underwater zone, just take the makings of a normal zone. lower the gravity, add some wateryness, and link it though that tanker in port oaks. the coral ppl can have a city ice will work underwater, it does in real life, why not in a game, fire does to if its hot enough and stone is no problem, as long as they are on the ocean floor. you can even have new stone designs, like coral style. guns can work under water too, all a gun is is a trigger and pin hammer, the bullets are air tight. besides, if "gun fu" can have bullets bend in air, why not just let them shoot underwater |
The new animations are required as motion underwater is signifigantly different to motion on land.
Also, are you assuming we can all breath underwater? Or would we all need to done rebreathers?
you could enter it though the sinking tanker, and be taken to a deep sea coral city like that on land, it could be in a deep sea canyon and the same way if you fly south in peregrine island and end up in talos, you can fly up and end up at the surface of the bay in port oaks
the hero side link can be in the hollows where the coralax are
I notice you avoided answering Diggis' question.
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Weird that they would bother to spend any time to change how that worked. I would've figured that since they more or less gave up on the water "experiment" that they'd just leave what they did with that little pool alone as a footnote of sorts. Maybe the changes they made for Ultra mode affected how that unique bit of code worked. *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You can no longer "swim" in it. Checked when someone else asked me after seeing the EAT status guide in my sig - you now just sink. It's a tiny pool in the rocks outside the west walls of Grandville.
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yes but think about it, what would the game makers sooner make, new power sets after just making four new ones, or making a new zone, which they need cause praetoria is so limited|
Originally Posted by Diggis
If you look above BaBs has pointed out why he is opposed to this. It would take a huge amount of extra animations for this to work properly and look right, which could be better spent on new power sets or tech.
The new animations are required as motion underwater is signifigantly different to motion on land. Also, are you assuming we can all breath underwater? Or would we all need to done rebreathers? |
and the breathing underwater can have the same effect of the respec trial in terra, the same way you get a radiation bubble, you can get a rebreather auto power that u get the moment you enter the zone, it will last as long as you are there
you done need breathing help in any other zone, so might as well make it automatic
id think that would be a obvious soultion, no need to even have a rebreather power, it would just be obvious
i personally want a zone where you can go to the past when there are dinosaurs and fight ppl who are trying to change history
dino killin, that would be fun
and i didnt ignore anyone
Frankly it'd be much easier for the Devs to make a zero-G space station and/or low-G Moon zone than it would be for an underwater zone. Things like worrying about "automatic breathing gear" or explaining how powers could work in an air-filled station environment would be much easier than dealing with how things would work underwater.
Thought I'd lob that tangential hand grenade into this discussion just to highlight how problematic being underwater would be. 
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Just did a little research on your claims.... |
Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick
cool
anyway, if u want a underwater zone, just take the makings of a normal zone. lower the gravity, add some wateryness, and link it though that tanker in port oaks. the coral ppl can have a city ice will work underwater, it does in real life, why not in a game, fire does to if its hot enough and stone is no problem, as long as they are on the ocean floor. you can even have new stone designs, like coral style. guns can work under water too, all a gun is is a trigger and pin hammer, the bullets are air tight. besides, if "gun fu" can have bullets bend in air, why not just let them shoot underwater |
Guns underwater:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEXRfWJNzG8&feature=player_embedded
Not overly sucessful really. Kinetic energy is stuffed underwater and the shotgun actually exploded.
Welding:
It's short range and runs the risk of electrocution because it's Arc welding, using electricity, rather than a flame.
Yes, you can have fire underwater but it's usually down to gas which displaces the water.
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Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick
yes but think about it, what would the game makers sooner make, new power sets after just making four new ones, or making a new zone, which they need cause praetoria is so limited
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Ugh, horrible, horrible memories of ToA when it came out to DAoC. Swimming was one of the reasons I quit after years of playing. I really loved the RvR there. For me only, I would be happy to never see another underwater zone. But if people want it, then it should be done right.
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Other games have gone thru such a transition quite effectively and dramatically, such as Dark Age of Camelot, so its not like we are talking about an impossible task, with excessive work to do.
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I would love to fight the Coralax on their home turf, or take on any number of comic-book inspired versions of Atlantis / Mu / Y'ha-nthlei / etc. I also agree that genuine underwater action would require recreation of every power, movement, and special effect in the game, so I will pass on supporting such a move i favor of a lunar / outer space zone, a Dinosaur jungle zone, or other exotic regions we have yet to see. But really? I'd prefer more zones added to Praetoria, with content for L1s-50s.
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Let's look JUST at this statement.|
Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick
ice will work underwater, it does in real life, why not in a game
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Fact: Ice floats.
Prove it to yourself. Get a glass or bowl, fill it with water, stick ice in. Let go. What does it do? Float to the surface. It's one of the interesting properties of water (and one which allows, for instance, *fish* to stay alive instead of becoming pre-frozen fish sticks every winter.
Fact: Water is more dense (and thus presents higher resistance to movement) than air does.
Simple enough to figure out if you've *ever* been in any reasonable body of water - hell, even a sink will tell you that.
So, let's take an Ice blaster and put him underwater. We'll let him breathe through the magic of hand-waving. What should logically happen when he tries to attack?
- Range is severely shortened due to resistance from the water.
- Accuracy is degraded as the ice tries to rise to the surface.
- Frost Breath does... what? Blow cool water a few short feet in front of you?
- Ice Storm and Blizzard do... what? They're not going to look right "falling." It's ice under water. And again, any movement they DO have will be slowed. So you'll get ice cubes rising gently above your target.
There goes several of my characters usefulness. Ice blasters, Defenders (secondary) and Corruptors need not go under water.
Well, ok, that's the blaster. How about an ice tank? Again, he's covered in ice. That ice is going to want to float - so he loses Knockback protection. And likely loses some Defense as well. Oh, we're weighting him down? Then he gets the Granite treatment and gets an even bigger movement penalty than normal - of course, you'd better hope you're fighting on the ocean floor. (Anyone using a Cold def's shields gets the same treatment.) Fighting in the water? Nope. You're floating or sinking, or getting more movement penalties for even more "gear" to try to stay in one place.
Let's just look at blasters (since they're going to affect 3-4 other ATs to various extents - Corruptors, Defenders and partially Dominators.)
Psi - No real reason to change. It's mental power, without a physical component. However, given it's generally a bit harder to see underwater, snipe range would probably be cut.
Dark (Corr/Def) - Depends on how you want to define it. Go with the psy explanation (powers like gloom,) it's not likely affected much. Go with energy, and water will dissipate it, shortening range and "punch."
Energy - see Dark.
Radiation - see Energy.
AR - There's a reason guns aren't generally used underwater. When that bullet hits the water - assuming we're not going from air TO water, in which case there's a good chance of it shattering - it's hitting extremely high drag. If your target's right at the end of the barrel, you might hit them. Otherwise, AR need not apply for the water wars.
Archery - see AR, but at least you can get your arrows back, dry them out and use them again.
Dual Pistols - see AR. With extra acc penalties for all the waving of hands as you shoot, and/or extra END cost for doing so under water.
Electric - oy. Since we're looking at an ocean (not sticking you in a vat of pure water,) there's conductivity. I'd still expect to see either range or damage lowered, though.
Fire - You're not giving it a sustained fuel source to maintain the "fire can keep burning if it's hot enough." So either it's doing less damage, you're putting more energy into it (higher END cost,) and/or you're reducing range.
Sonic - Yay, one that would probably work BETTER under water! You'd at least get a range increase out of it.
... that's just one AT. That's just *primaries* from that AT (again, though, also affecting Defenders, Corruptors and to a lesser extent Dominators.) Yes, I threw dark in as it's another ranged set. So we have... two sets (Psi, unchanged, and Sonic) that aren't impacted negatively.
So, this still looking like a good idea?
Or, how about travel powers:
Fly - OK. New animation, bit higher END cost.
Superspeed - hope you have a surface to run on. Greatly increase END cost, or greatly reduce speed.
Superjump - Reduce range, or increase END cost.
Teleport - What would happen when you vanish from one spot and instantly show up somewhere else, having to displace water on your arrival? You'd probably end up having to take damage *every single time.*
Sprint - new animation. Being reasonably slow, I can see getting away with not increasing END here.
Of course, you can just ignore how things would really behave in water and make the experience one of the "utter crap" variety. Given I'm big on Epic ATs and want to see the Coralax EAT actually make it to live at some point, which would likely tie INTO something like this, I'd rather have it done well instead of in a lazy, slipshod, craptastic manner.
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Yeah, I actually assume it's broken as opposed to removed, and doubt it'll be fixed.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Weird that they would bother to spend any time to change how that worked. I would've figured that since they more or less gave up on the water "experiment" that they'd just leave what they did with that little pool alone as a footnote of sorts. Maybe the changes they made for Ultra mode affected how that unique bit of code worked. *shrugs*
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This is the only thing in the entire post I'll take issue with MB.| Teleport - What would happen when you vanish from one spot and instantly show up somewhere else, having to displace water on your arrival? You'd probably end up having to take damage *every single time.* |
We already instantly show up somewhere else and displace whatever is there. Air is less dense than water sure, but what about Tele-attacks? We're displacing living critters which in some cases are more dense.
Other than this, your post is spot on I think.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Temp powers and air bubbles. Problem solved. A space station isn't much different than a underwater zone. If you can't go out in it, what's the point?
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
This is the only thing in the entire post I'll take issue with MB.
We already instantly show up somewhere else and displace whatever is there. Air is less dense than water sure, but what about Tele-attacks? We're displacing living critters which in some cases are more dense. Other than this, your post is spot on I think. |
Somehow, I think your putting way too much thought into this.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Somehow I suspect BAB has put even more thought into this... which likely led him to make the reasonable decision that doing an underwater zone is ultimately not worth the obvious hassle and controversy it's generating here.
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...
I think I lose. I don't actually have enough facepalm for this thread.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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ok, here is the deal. first, babs has been responsible for some of the best additions to the game, he did power customization and the alternate animations, we will not seriously ever discuss letting him go again. you have no concept of what you are talking about any more than a 5 year old explaining how to properly encase a nuclear reactor. |
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
With regards to BaBs statement, perhaps he does need to be let go. Other games have gone thru such a transition quite effectively and dramatically, such as Dark Age of Camelot, so its not like we are talking about an impossible task, with excessive work to do. You know a little use of Grey Matter could circumvent a lot the issues with regards of being underwater; for instance a magical or device force field which keeps an air bubble about you, would simply eliminate the need to redesign all the costume textures (red bubble at terra volta reactor), a magical aura or a new "quantum" field could allow powers to operate udnerwater...I guess when it comes down to it, if one wants to simply be negative about things, its easy, takes little effort as opposed to being open minded and trying to do new things, and despite that those things may have baggage of their own, if positive minded, one can find practical ways to get around those difficulties. Stormy |
Second, you seem to be one of the few people i have read about that felt that trials of atlantis did a good job with underwater settings. what i have read was quite the opposite, it was viewed by many as a critical disappointment, same with champions which i still actively play, and lemuria is one of the zones people actively avoid, melee especially is horribly disadvantaged in a setting like this. its even cumbersome in perfect world as a tideborn. wow seems to be trying it in cataclysm, havent tried it to know, but it is a fairly consistent thing that underwater settings dont work well in mmos. I wish they did, in theory i'd support it unreservedly, but reality has to be taken into account.
This might do it;
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_akLHpeO7qy...leFacePalm.jpg
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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This is funny. Yeah, why don't we fire the lead animator because he won't kowtow to my pet peeve. Clearly he's incompetent, unlike myself. Right?
Right?
...
Why won't anyone take me seriously!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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... I'm having a serious case of Deja-Vu... complete with the cat appearing twice.
I'm looking at the thread dates on the first page, which starts at 09-27-2010... only... I'm pretty sure I've seen this exact thread before, including the copy pasted BaB's pony killing in post #16?
Does anybody else remember this thread from two or three months ago? Or has this thread somehow magically replicated a pre-existing thread with basically the same set of epic-level-fail pictures?
The amount of work that would be required for an underwater zone likely rivals that of what was done in Going Rogue. Even if you do just ignore the laws of physics and chemistry, as most games do when dealing with the "underwater zone", you still need new animations, new art, a new zone, new missions, new enemy groups... The amount of work involved in making an underwater zone would likely be greater than what went into making Going Rogue and City of Villains combined.
I'm sure we'd all LIKE an underwater zone, but when you start considering all of the things that need to be shoved aside in order to create such a place its' priority drops off somewhere in "Happy Thoughts" land. Especially when you consider that it'd probably only have content available for like, 10 levels or so.
As someone else mentioned, it'd probably be easier to do a "space" zone than it would be to make an underwater area. With a space zone they mostly just need to **** with the physics engine and art some **** up.
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So, you think he's ruled out the possibility of a bioshock/Rapture style underwater zone on the principle that you wouldn't REALLY be underwater?
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Somehow I suspect BAB has put even more thought into this... which likely led him to make the reasonable decision that doing an underwater zone is ultimately not worth the obvious hassle and controversy it's generating here.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Actually, you shouldn't be so sure. Some of us start from the standpoint of not really caring or even specifically disliking underwater environments, and looking for a convincing argument that would make us change our minds. Such has, to this day, not been given.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
I'm sure we'd all LIKE an underwater zone, but when you start considering all of the things that need to be shoved aside in order to create such a place its' priority drops off somewhere in "Happy Thoughts" land. Especially when you consider that it'd probably only have content available for like, 10 levels or so.
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What's more, games have historically made me hate underwater environments with all their restrictions and the awkward way people moved in them. I side with BABs here - should never happen.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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cool
anyway, if u want a underwater zone, just take the makings of a normal zone. lower the gravity, add some wateryness, and link it though that tanker in port oaks. the coral ppl can have a city
ice will work underwater, it does in real life, why not in a game, fire does to if its hot enough and stone is no problem, as long as they are on the ocean floor. you can even have new stone designs, like coral style.
guns can work under water too, all a gun is is a trigger and pin hammer, the bullets are air tight. besides, if "gun fu" can have bullets bend in air, why not just let them shoot underwater