Cold vs FF

Forcefields or IOs. Gone are purple insps and any other set that can provide +def

I have both Cold and FF (and Sonic) characters. Which one is "better" depends on the situation.

It is true that you can build a team in a way that makes FF less useful. It is not true that an average team is built that way. This is why Force Field is my top pick for running PUGs. It is guaranteed, 95% defense, no matter who joins or leaves the team. The endurance drain protection is very useful against certain enemy groups as well.

Task Forces are a little different. I prefer Cold for final boss fights in general. I find Cold much less useful for the rest of the mission. Sleet is very powerful but now that Dominators can get it I find the rest of Cold not very appealing. Dominators are simply much better at handling large spawns.

When I rolled my Electric Controller I selected Force Field so I could have mezz protection and the ability to IO myself to make it safer to leap into melee with Conductive Aura. The team are not the only people who benefit from the set.

The set that's not being mentioned here that IMO deserves much more scrutiny is Sonic Resonance. Like FF and Cold I have two characters with this set. I find it to be extremely lackluster. People looking only at "variety" or "debuffs" are probably going to disagree, because they enter on the assumption that every team is already invincible.

If we are gonna compare sonic to something, lets compare it to thermal. Really, sonic and FF both need looking at. Liquify's timer needs changed bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nights_Dawn Hazy is right

Sets that give Defense as a form of a buff in one way or another:

Traps -> FFG (AoE Defense, mez protection, 5 minute timer)

FF -> Both single target, and AoE defense, plus mez protection

Cold -> Single target and AoE defense + resistance

Emp -> Fortitude, single target, put perma-able on about half a team, more so when slotted for all out recharge.

Dark -> AoE defense + resistance

Storm -> AoE Defense + resistance

Sets that offere -tohit (equates to +def) in the form of a debuff in one form or another

Rad -> Toggle, AoE 15ft radius, has an anchor

Traps -> Drones pet, alpha soakers + 5ft radius explosion

Trick arrow -> Flash arrow, easily perma, and has -perception

Dark -> Toggle, AoE 25ft radius, has an anchor. plus the heal, plus the fear, plus the pet

I think that about covers it, i could've missed a few things, like basically all of dark melee, or dark blast, but ya get the picture.

There are plenty of ways to get +def in this game, be it from buffs, or debuffs.

FF is really just a 1 trick pony that, once faced with defense debuffs, really started to falter, very quickly.

Cold has +hps, which can be perma on 2 allys right out of the box, and will cap even a mastermind's hitpoints, thus doubling their survival. Cold also has +recovery, and -res, which allows you to not just attack/buff/debuff more often (limitless endurance) but increases your damage by a large amount. the -dmg in cold seconds as a +res buff, as those are pretty much interchangeable, so once those defense debuffs start flying, your actually be taking less damage from them.

So, yeah, cold > FF in basically every situation possible.

Both are nice on a team, if I had to choose, I'd choose a Cold Domination over a Force Fielder.

But I'd choose a Cold Domination over a Radiation too.

Once you have that high of defense, mez while still a factor, becomes a bit less of one. After all, they have to hit you to mez you.

So, I prefere Cold's Shields, Sleet, Heat Loss on a team.

Now this is all assuming, I'm the one forming a team.

As a player of the sets, this could very well go the other way around, but that's a player to player choice.

So I'll stick to being a starholder, and what I'd prefere to have on my team if the choice was made available to me.

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Oh dear, I think the Defender forums sprung a leak. A certain someone apparently hasn't noticed though, or otherwise there'd be five times as many posts already all repeating the same thing ad nauseam from a single poster.

"cough"

Anyway, having a FF/ and a /SR, I'll agree with the sentiment earlier about both being one trick ponies. "But wait, /SR has more variety than..." No, it doesn't. SR gives defense, defense debuff resistance, recharge, mez protection, run speed, scaling resistances, and a god mode. But, in comparison, FF provides defense, toxic resistance, mez protection, knockback, knockdown, repel, detention, stun, a panic button/alpha eater on a short recharge, and some damage. If FF is a one trick pony, than SR is by far. And nobody except a few rabid Shield fanboys think SR is useless.

FF in the hands of the average player does little else provide defense and mez protection. The set requires creativity to bring out it's full potential. In the hands of a great player, FF can do A LOT. Force Bolt can provide 100% mitigation against any individual target vulnerable to knockback. Or it can pop runners into walls. Or it can pop scatterers into the debuff/mez/damage fields where they belong. Or, thanks to ragdoll physics, it can knock NPCs out of the air. Personal Force Field means a FFer will almost never die if employed at the right time, especially when coupled with Aid Self. Or it can be used to cross any zone safely. Or it can be used to "defense stealth" maps. Or it can be used to eat an alpha strike. Or it can be used with Provoke to tank hits better than a real tank. Repulsion Field and Force Bubble are used similarly, with one as a chisel and the other as a sledge hammer in effect. They can be used to herd mobs to great effect (ever seen the video of a FFer herding the ENTIRE ITF rooftops in COMPLETE SAFETY?). Or they can be used to force mobs into a corner for mass AoE carnage. Or they can be used to knock mobs out of their advantageous positions. Or they can be used to keep an area of players perfectly safe from melee attacks. Or they can be used to protect the team from ambushes mysteriously appearing behind the squishies and melee-ganking them all. Or, against AV-spawned ambushes, they can prevent said ambushes from overwhelming a team if they're steam-rolling the AV's HP down (I'm looking at you Romulus). Or they can be used to prevent mobs from passing through a certain area 100% reliably. Then there's Detention Field, a much misunderstood and poorly used power. It can be used to prevent certain annoying mobs from doing anything. Or it can give a breather in an AV fight, letting the team rest (particularly useful in low level AV fights where nobody has Stamina, such as Nocturne). Or it can be used to manipulate high-end encounters, such as stopping towers from buffing Lord Recluse or removing one of Reichsman's AVs if the team isn't prepared for it. Or it can be used to save your own skin by locking up a mob so you can retreat and rest. Or it can generate a wall of text containing too many "Or" statements.

Also, did you know FF can bubble the reactor in Terra Volta? Also, if FF is so gimped, why is Bots/FF considered to be CoH on auto-play, aka a rather powerful combo? Also, did you know having to FFers on the team all bubbling means defense debuffs don't really matter? Also, did you know bubbling a defense-based toon is giving them a huge buffer against defense debuffs? Or maybe even letting them avoid attacks from Rularuu Eyeballs?

Note I'm not saying FF is better than Cold (or vice versa) here. Both have their own niches and moments where they shine. Cold is simply far more straight forward on finding those niches and moments.

even with stacked defense, you still have a 5% chance to get hit. No matter what you do. And against some mobs, that chances can go as high as 7.5%. No matter what you do.

So, lets assume for a minute, your softcapped to everything, due to a FF.

Somehow, 3 groups are aggro'ed. They all pull out guns, and start firing. ok, so full team, 3 groups, thats what? about 35 mobs, give or take? at a 5% chance to hit, about 2 of said mobs are going to land a hit on you. Well, once that happens, you just went from the softcap, to quite abit below it, and thus, the next recharge cycle, your down again.

This has been mathematically proven time and time again, Defense, with no defense debuff resistance is not a matter of 'if' it fails, its a matter of 'when', cuz all it really takes is 1 attack with any shred of -def hitting and your done. Romans are prime examples, as are longbow, as are Rularuu. 1 hit, and all your defense is completely shattered. And then what do you have?

Now take that same above example, but replace FF with cold. So, your defense is gone, cascading failure as kicked in, and your no longer able to rely on your softcap. What else do you have? Oh, look, you have capped hitpoints, so you can take quite a few more hits then you could if you didn't have that. Also, you have resistance to some of those damage types, so your taking less damage as well. Oh, the cold benumbs the AoE happy boss, well now everyone is taking less damage. And heat loss, enemy has no end, your end is capped, and the debuffs go away, thus allowing you to steamroll at your own will.

5% to 7.5% chances to hit, even when softcapped (or above for that matter) can really add up in a steamroll team, and when it does, you need some way to prevent it from equating into a team wipe. FF does not have those options. Cold does.

What if the mobs don't have defense debuffs, thus everyone stays at the soft-cap the whole fight? What if ten of the mobs aim for the Cold, who, without outside buffs, Insps, or IOs, has lower native defense and no panic button, and kill him outright? Or gets hit with a hold or stun? What if the FFer Repulsion Bombs one group, Detentions one boss, and perma-KBs another with Force Bolt, and the team goes through a door and the FFer uses Force Bubble to prevent the 30 mobs from charging through said door, turning the flood into a trickle?

I don't see how this pigeonholed situation proves Cold > FF. Both could handle it. They both just have a different method. And if you say "Well Cold can use X outside source", so can FF. You could pop Purps to get FF's softcap, FF could pop oranges to get your resistances. Etc. and etc.


General question...

Cold Doms: You use frost shields and Frostworks on a soft-capped, HP capped tank, let's say perma-DPed Invuln. What benefit does he get?

FFers: You use bubbles on a soft-capped, HP capped tank, let's say perma-DPed Invuln. What benefit does he get?

Both instances: You don't know he's soft and HP capped since you haven't asked and he hasn't said, so no saying "but I wouldn't buff him".

Question: What protection (+DEF, +RES, other, etc.) can the Cold provide itself? Specific values would be useful in the answer (say for a level 50).

I know what a FF can provide itself both with it's own powers and when Leadership and/or other power pools are included. My FF'er runs at 46.6% defense to range, 46.9% to Energy and Negative, and 32.4% to everything else without the use of PFF. And then there's the 47% resistance to S/L that he brings himself.

I ask about the self protection because if the FF or Cold gets dropped then there is the whole "what protection is still available to the team" situation.

- B.

Not this topic again... *sigh*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockmar Whereas FF only brings 5% more defence than cold unenhanced (defender numbers), mez protection, and repel/knockback.

Defender FF w/ Maneuvers & slotted with SO's provides the team 44.5% defense to all positions, along with 21.1% Psi defense. It also provides the defender himself with 21.1% defense to everything, along with mez protection for the entire team. Cold under the same conditions provides the team with 36.7% defense, 13.3% psi defense & 13.3% defense to self.

So, let's take an imaginary 1000 points of incoming damage per second from enemy attacks. FF reduces incoming hits by 94.5%, resulting in 55 points of damage per second getting through.

Cold reduces incoming hits by just over 86%, allowing 137 points of damage per second to get past the defense. That's about 2.5 times as much incoming damage. Now, if it's fire, cold or energy damage, that will be somewhat further mitigated by the damage resistance Cold can provide, but the majority of enemy damage is S/L, and Cold provides no resistance to S/L damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master i have both an FF and a cold, and i would choose cold over any FF because of the debuffs, FF in no way will help you kill that AV because it has no regen debuffs, sure nobody will get hurt, but you wont ever kill an AV without regen debuffs if your team doesnt have the DPS

AV regen is only about 90 hp/sec. A good blaster or scrapper can put out over 200 dps by themselves. If it's not a GM, -regen is largely irrelevant. Especially when any character in the game has access to -regen from the Envenomed Dagger temp power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BasicallyJesus You can't find a situation to bring FF instead of cold because there isn't one. FF is largely useless on a team because all it offers is +def(which, at last counting, came from 10000000000000 or so other things in the game) and an incomplete mez resist(which can be taken care of by not being terrible and carrying breakfrees).

Tell that to the MoSTF teams I've taken my bubbler on.

Yep, that FF is 'useless' when it keeps Ghost Widow's mag 100 hold from hitting the tank. It's 'useless' when an extra AV shows up when dealing with the patrons, and FF can completely neutralize that AV with Detention Field. It's 'useless' when FF can lock down one of the towers buffing Recluse and keep the tank from faceplanting while the team is destroying another tower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arbegla So, yeah, cold > FF in basically every situation possible.

Except situations where team survivability is paramount. Like Master TF runs.

Or situations where there are a lot of status effects getting thrown around. Like Rikti mothership raids.

Or against enemies with lots of -end drain effects, like those oh-so-rare Carnies & Malta that show up in the later levels.

There is nothing in the game that can enhance team survivability like an FF defender.