Hero, Vigi, Rog, Vill.

With the new GR moral stance options I have found myself moving a number of my characters to the new categories, while others have reaffirmed their Hero or Villain statues. Now I know why I have made these changes, but in the wider RP realm I have started to wonder how close my opinion of what makes a character a Rogue rather than a Villain or a Vigilante.

What I would like to do is to take a small opinion poll of RPers …

What, in a simple short phrase, makes and/or define a character as a Vigilante/Rogue rather than a Hero/Villain, in YOUR opinion, I know what the in-game missions say, what I want is to see what other RPers think.

To me, a hero is someone who follows the rules; which means that most heroes don't actually qualify.

A vigilante is someone who does what they feel is right, the law be damned.

A Villain is, well... A villain, I guess. The generally only do things that serve their own self interest.

A rogue... Well, they're villains, but with a moral streak in them that gives them a concience. This is probably what the majority of villains really are.

I feel we need another couple of classifications; Evil sicko and Lunatic. Way too may villains go beyond mere villainy and in to the realm of evil sicko, or are just plain insane...

Hero doing good for good reasons. Because you can or because its the right thing to do. Superman or Captain America.

Vigilante, doing good for bad reasons. For revenge, or because you are mental. Batman or the Punisher.

Rogue, doing bad but with good reasons. Rob from the Rich to give to the poor. Robin hood, occasionally Deadpool.

Villain, doing bad for bad reasons. Hate, greed, desire for power. Most world conquering villains.

To me...

A Hero is someone who, regardless of personal risk, does everything they can to protect and save the lives of others. Preferably working within the law, but not always.

A Vigilante is someone who tries to do what they feel is the right thing, but will also act as judge, jury and executioner because they feel the law will either turn a blind eye or not go far enough.

A Villain is pretty self explanatory: someone who will happily break the law for personal gain/pleasure. There are of course many levels and nuances of this but pretty much anyone who is out for themselves and screw everyone else.

A Rogue is someone who again tries to do the right thing, but will be more inclined to work outside the law to do this. For example; stealing money to give to others, breaking in and stealing files to take to the media to expose a corrupt company. In more extream cases, someone who will see killing as a viable first option to protect a person or a group who is in danger.

To me, Vigilante and Rogue are fairly similar, but it mostly depends on the reasoning and the approach behind their actions.

Ignoring what I think, what the game seems to think is...

A Hero is someone who looks at the immediate state of play and determines what course of action will result in the most immediate, short term, 'good.' They are enormously short-sighted and their actions are pretty likely to perpetuate evil, because they rarely act against evil, they are too busy rescuing victims.

Vigilantes are willing to let a few people die if they believe that there's some chance that they'll do 'greater good,' i.e. something which deminishes 'evil.' They don't always get it right, because they are more concerned about defeating evil than doing good.

Rogues are selfish. They are looking for the main chance and are will to do more or less anything to make a profit. Equally, they aren't going to do something just because it's mean.

Villains are in it for the villainy. They do evil because that's what they do. They will happily expend effort and come out at a loss, as long as their reputation for being evil b'stards increases. Not only do Villains want to commit evil acts, but they want it to be known it was them doing it.

Hero: Lawful Good / Lawful Neutral
Vigilante: Neutral Good / Lawful Neutral / True Neutral / Chaotic Good
Rogue: Chaotic Good / Chaotic Neutral / True Neutral
Villain: Lawful Evil / Neutral Evil / Chaotic Evil

*May have been roleplaying D&D far too long....

The Lawful discriptor doesn't usually mean following the written laws of an area, usually it refers to a personal code which the character doesn't deviate from, or how fast they stick to bargains made. Order and Discipline are qualities of lawful characters.

Anyway, A hero is one who doesn't allow the sacrifice of innocents in pursuit of justice, The most likely to take a third option.

Vigilantes are the wankers who mutter 'Justice, revenge, justice' in their sleep. No qualms about killing, or letting people get hurt so long as they selfishly fulfill their perverted desire for justice.

Rogues are selfish opportunists who don't like to kick puppies on their way to the bank. They might occasionally take a stand, but are equally likely to just walk away.

Villains...well...like the song says, Anything Goes. You can't tell what a villain will do excepting that they plan to benefit some fashion from it.

And because I never have enough opportunities to post this...

They're difficult to define, and harder still to directly reconcile with the in game missions. Each encompasses a range of possible characterisations.

Disclaimer: Opinions subject to change


Hero
The path of sacrifice
"Man is not a thing - not something to be used merely as a means: he must always be regarded as an end in himself."
- Immanuel Kant

Defining characteristics: Compassionate, Protecting

The Hero believes in doing the right thing. Better to die knowing you did the best you could, then to live with the knowledge that you sacrificed your principles. At best, the Hero is a paragon of true justice, helping those who cannot help themselves, fighting monsters without becoming one, acting as a beacon of hope and an example for all to follow. At worst, the Hero is naive and short-sighted, too concerned with stopping individual crimes to try and tackle their cause.


Vigilante
The path of necessity
"Exitus acta probat."
- Ovid

Defining characteristics: Callous, Avenging

For the Vigilante, results are what matter. What's the point in saving a few innocent victims if the perpetrator is free to strike again in the future? At best, the Vigilante is a pragmatist, doing what others lack the resolve to do, accepting the inevitable, preferring to stand as a warning to would-be criminals than as a role model to others. At worst, the Vigilante is a jaded and delusional fanatic, justifying atrocities a Villain would be proud of in the name of the "big picture."


Rogue
The path of greed
"The proper method of judging when or whether one should help another person is by reference to one's own rational self-interest."
- Ayn Rand

Defining characteristics: Mercenary, Independent

The Rogue lives for the moment. His or her loyalty is to the highest bidder. Some Rogues have principles, but these are more likely to be business ethics than any kind of regard for other human beings. At best, the Rogue is a free agent, staying neutral, doing whatever's necessary to live from day to day, only harming those who bring it on themselves by getting in the Rogue's way. At worst, the Rogue is a weak-willed coward, lacking the integrity to be a Hero or the ambition to be a Villain.


Villain
The path of power
"EEEE HAHAHA HA HA HA CRUSH SUPERMAN."
- Lex Luthor

Defining characteristics: Megalomaniacal, Sadistic

The Villain goes beyond just being an amoral criminal. He or she has a purpose - an ambition that comes before any short-term gain. Some Villains aspire to rule the world, others to destroy it; some aim to achieve immortality, whether literal or figurative. At best, the Villain is a strong-minded and driven individual who believes that his or her actions will create a better world. At worst, the Villain is completely insane and takes pleasure in spreading death and misery wherever he or she goes.

Wow, bravo Wolfram, bravo, very eloquently put.

I was kind of basing my 'in-game' definitions on the missions rather than the tips themselves.

Rogue and Villain seem pretty clear, but Vigilante and Hero are a bit more vague.

Frequently, a Hero will act on the most immediate 'threat' ignoring the fact that something evil thrives to try again and possibly cause far more damage, while a Vigilante goes after the root cause and, perhaps, prevents greater long term loss of life. As has been quoted before in this respect, a line from Zoe in Serenity springs to mind, "A hero is someone who gets other people killed." the corrolary would be, "A vigilante who lets other people get killed if fewer people die in the long run."

Or, to put it another way, heroes are reactive, vigilantes are proactive.

I'm not actually passing judgement on either being better. If it were me, I'd have difficulty allowing someone to come to harm when I could save them at the cost of allowing the perpetrator to go free.

In-game, sometimes the vigilante course saves a worse fate than the hero one, other times you have to live with the consequences. Hero missions tend to give the impression of being beneficial, no matter what, but you often leave something evil active which might have been stopped.

Of course the game can't represent the Third Option. Which is to phone a friend and do BOTH.

It sort of does for Vigilantes. There's often the assumption that someone else is going to rescue the hostages/defuse the bomb/deal with the horde of Nictus. Of course, the Vigilante goes on even if that isn't going to happen.

Huge thanks to all who posted, lots of material to work with ..

Here is my take on it, after reading all the good stuff above

Hero ..tend to be reactive , works to preserve the current society they are in, doing what is considered good , just, and right by those social norms , seeks to maintain the status quo , is self-sacrificing in all senses of the phrase, acts this way even if it is at some difference from their personal views. LG NG may be CG LN or even N, as N is a pure reactor to events, is a lifesaver rather than a crime fighter.

Villain.. proactive, a unredeemable baddy , self-centred, a fanatic to some creed or cause, does not feel bound by any moral or legal code, unconcerned about fallout from their actions. NE, CE, maybe LE.

Rogue ..often reactive , only acts when they feel in the mood , willing to bend or brake any moral or legal code if they have to, often is a social parasite, an exploiter of peoples and situations. May be mercenary, will always be looking for the best pay off, for themselves from a situation. May have one or two lines they will not cross. Tend to take the smoothest path to avoid trouble. CN, maybe NE but NOT CG..

Vigilante .. very proactive, a hunter of wrong doers, will go beyond what is the societies normal bounds to deal with those they see as bad, is willing to except casualties in the struggle for right, is self-sacrificing in the sense they will give up their normal life to pursue the bad guys, may be so focused as to lose sight of the wider picture. LN , maybe LE in extreme cases .


Anyone with any more thought please post away ..

There is nothing Lawful about Vigilantes, one mission has you gas a council base, then blow it up with the council inside!

lawful in the sense of order , not breaking the Law CB.

That's a bit wishy washy really. If they wanted Order they'd support the system in place rather than going outside of the lines to dispense Vigilante Justice. Yes if the laws were BAD it might be Lawful to oppose them in favour of GOOD laws. But Vigilante's are "There's no Law, there's just me"

When you're following your Conscience over everything else, you're being Chaotic.

Or in short, the Alignment system isn't very good and I feel a bit silly even using it. People just aren't consistent throughout the day, let alone thier lives. You'd think Statesman was lawful, but he illegaly invaded a country to stop a nuclear esculation. Same for Longbow's outlook on life.

A Hero is the one that goes and saves those homeless bums (which my Warshade opted not to do - instead the 'shade went after the Arachnos behind the plot!)

A Vigilante is the one that goes and blows up that Arachnos (or other villain group/gang) base, preventing further intrusions by the criminal element. They'll go for coffee after doing so, and may or may not get a good night's sleep. They'll readily accept the assitance of the lesser of two evils in order to thwart the greater evil. They'll sometimes be viewed as the lesser of two evils.

A Rogue would be the one that saves the city council, after refusing to save those homeless bums from Arachnos. Oh - wait - that was a Hero tip mission (figured after dealing with that Arachnos base in the vigilante tip, I needed to rescue some prominent members of society to - hmmmm - not be viewed as a callous lowlife!)...OK so a Rogue would go out stealing those artifacts from the Hellions for their own personal gain (in money and/or power.) They'll kill when needed - if not faced with insurmountable odds and can get away with it.

A Villain would outright kill anyone that got in their way. They'll steal from their moms, grandmoms, nieces and nephews...hell if they had to they'd kill off their family. They regularly steal candy from any and all children they encounter. They kick puppies into outer space. They'll lie, cheat, steal, kill, bribe and intimidate whomever they feel like. They never train their subordinates (hence the paired guards scenario: one hears a noise, goes and checks it, while the other stays behind, only so the hero/vigilante can bust that guard in the face, then use the unconcious body to knock out the other guard [or use the unconcious guard's body as a meatshield...]) They're always threatening their most trusted lieutenant with death after that next failure...and are ALWAYS escaping from that latest supermax facility designed to hold such evil, nefarious of scoundrels.

Otherwise, I think everyone else has pretty much covered this topic fairly well!

yaa, i sort of agree Fans , the L C G E N tags are just handy short cuts , any individual is way to complex to be reduceable to such a tag.

I am using a very broad brush to paint the picture. I veiw the Vigilante as wanting order not chaos, but accepting that the socities current structure fail deal with the "crimes", and so steps outside the norm to deal with the crime, in the hope of preserving the structure. They want to remove the bad while retaining the good.

Those that want to tear down the current structure and replace it with thier own vision i would label as Villain , may be Rogue.

Rogues don't want to tear down anything. They want to make a profit.

As there seems to be some question over the exact definition of lawful and chaotic...

According to the d&d alignments: