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Indeed. Ellie tries to follow the law, and never ever knowingly lies, but she also has real trouble with certain authority figures, and if a law gets in the way of her doing what she considers right, it gets shoved to one side.|
Originally Posted by Fanservice
So Neutral then? Doesn't pay much attention too the whole issue.
Truthly there's no one who's strictly Lawful or Chaotic without being almost a caricature of a person. |
She's killed in the past, and she'll likely kill again; but it's almost always been during combat, so could be justified as self-defense. (There are a few exceptions, but she's not technically culpable for those.
)
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
i am rapidly moving to the view of not using the L N C E G tags, people seem to have too wider range of opinions on what they mean for them to be useful.
I agree with Fans , any person may have a mix of traits, some order, some chaos.
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Oh I agree, the only reason the Lawful tag exists is to give bad DM's an excuse to make Paladins fall.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
i am rapidly moving to the view of not using the L N C E G tags, people seem to have too wider range of opinions on what they mean for them to be useful.
I agree with Fans , any person may have a mix of traits, some order, some chaos. |
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Awesome descriptions of the four alignments in this game, by the way.|
Originally Posted by Zortel
Villain: ((This is where I fall down, as I currently have none. Whoops. Basically, they're in it for themselves and their ideals, and damn whatever else anyone wants. Be it power, the world, or just a corner of it, these people will stop at nothing except maybe their own personal code to get it. They may think of themselves as good, or necessary evil, but when they get to work, others best fear. The danger with them comes from the varying forms villainy can take, from the urbane manipulator to the psychotic destroyer, and the gamut in between.)) |
I'll go ahead and use one of my characters to fill in the villainous description.
Dr. Mechan
Born Elias Matthews, this cybernetic monstrosity is now more robot than human. While he was human and went by the name of Dr. Matthews, he joined Portal Corps straight out of MIT, eventually assigned to an expeditionary team into one of the many alternate dimensions discovered by the company. The dimension this team discovered was guarded by a twisted troop of corrupt Longbow, which proceeded to mow down the extra-dimensional explorers in a hail of gunfire and a rain of superpowered attacks.
Dr. Matthews was captured by these black-clad, evil Longbow, and tortured nearly to death. However, Portal Corps sent in a rescue squad - an elite, super-powered team the company hired for such occasions. The ensuing battle between the rescue team and the Black Longbow was brutal, however, a few of the rescuers managed to escape with Dr. Matthews battered, tortured body in tow.
Back on Primal Earth: The surgeons couldn't believe what they were seeing. The intense and extensive damage done to the body of Dr. Matthews should've been enough to kill him - yet he continued to live. The only course available to them to save the doctor: cybernetic reconstruction. Dr. Matthews would be able to return to work. He'd be able to survive such situations from now on, according to the higher ups. Unfortunately, as far as Dr. Matthews was concerned - his life as a human was over. He no longer found it necessary to indulge himself in human fallacy.
After his escape from Paragon into the depths of the Etoile Isles, Dr. Matthews took up the moniker Dr. Mechan, with a new vision for the planet: the eradication of all human life in exchange for the cold, metal, mechanical world of robots and machines. Until that time his new vision would become a reality, he readily kills any and all humans during his criminal escapades.
And yes, he would revisit that dimension where he lost his humanity...for it would become the new base of his operations for his mechanized assault against Primal Earth.
((Sidenote: Sure, Dr. Mechan should in all reality be thankful to the surgeons that kept him alive. While he would've been grateful as a human, almost immediately he found himself under attack by the very thing that keeps him alive. Each and every passing moment since his "rebirth", the machine code that keeps his cybernetic body operational has evolved on its own and now infects what is left of his human brain. While human, one of Dr. Matthews hopeful prospects in life was to have a family...now, the machine code that sustains him has latched onto that former animal instinct. It's really the closest thing remaining of his humanity: the desire to reproduce. Otherwise, he would've disconnected the various powercells that power his cybernetic shell long ago.)
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There have been alignment debates ever since the concept was introduced and even though City of X doesn't have as many options, we have alignments now, which will prompt the same kind of debate. 'X is obviously a heroic action' vs 'No, its vigilante behavior' and etc, ad infinitum. |
Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
i am rapidly moving to the view of not using the L N C E G tags, people seem to have too wider range of opinions on what they mean for them to be useful.
I agree with Fans , any person may have a mix of traits, some order, some chaos. |
Less possibilities doesn't make it any more clear, usually just leaving broader definitions that make no one happy.
That said, the Nine point alignment system was designed for a world that good, evil, law, and chaos were actual physical forces that effected the world.
Infinity
Sam Varden 50 MA/Reg Scrap
Doomtastic 50 SS/Inv Brute
Ceus 50 Eng/Kin Corr
Cinderstorm 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
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The problem here is that some people are trying to fit CoH's 4 point alignment system in to a larger 9 point alignment system, and 4 in to 9 just doesn't go. |
Originally Posted by Kasoh
That said, the Nine point alignment system was designed for a world that good, evil, law, and chaos were actual physical forces that effected the world.
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@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
TBH i dont think it is a 4 point CoH system , as many toons still fall outside the HVRV alignments, as i said i think now ((hindsight is such a great superpower)) using the LNCEG as tags is a bad idea.|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
The problem here is that some people are trying to fit CoH's 4 point alignment system in to a larger 9 point alignment system, and 4 in to 9 just doesn't go.
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Part of my reason for starting the thread was to avoid those RP conflicts where a Vigi or Rogue or Hero or Villain turns up as say i am a Vigi because i do X, you also do X why are you not a Vigi.
(( 4 does go into 9 ..its 0.4444444444444444...
))
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Why? People are allowed to have differing opinions IC. Whole point of it all really.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Part of my reason for starting the thread was to avoid those RP conflicts where a Vigi or Rogue or Hero or Villain turns up as say i am a Vigi because i do X, you also do X why are you not a Vigi.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
TBH i dont think it is a 4 point CoH system , as many toons still fall outside the HVRV alignments, as i said i think now ((hindsight is such a great superpower)) using the LNCEG as tags is a bad idea.
Part of my reason for starting the thread was to avoid those RP conflicts where a Vigi or Rogue or Hero or Villain turns up as say i am a Vigi because i do X, you also do X why are you not a Vigi. (( 4 does go into 9 ..its 0.4444444444444444... )) |
I was, of course, referring strictly to the game mechanics side of things. There, we have a 4 point alignment system with movement between, but you're always one of the 4 as far as the game is concerned.
As for the 4 in to 9, it doesn't go equally, you nugget. There's overlap all over the place.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
yes just like most toons alignments overlaping all over the place |
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
As for the 4 in to 9, it doesn't go equally, you nugget. There's overlap all over the place.
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no problem with IC debates Fans , i was just after some agreed framework for those debates to take place in, so that the debate can have some sort of meaning.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
Why? People are allowed to have differing opinions IC. Whole point of it all really.
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Thanks. |
Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
Wow, bravo Wolfram, bravo, very eloquently put.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Part of my reason for starting the thread was to avoid those RP conflicts where a Vigi or Rogue or Hero or Villain turns up as say i am a Vigi because i do X, you also do X why are you not a Vigi.
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OOC, it's necessary to be flexible, as each alignment contains a range of possibilities.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
See, there's three kinds of people: vigilantes, heroes, and villains.
Heroes think everyone can get along, and vigilantes just want to kill all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your villains, Chuck. And all that them villains want is to blow up everything! So, heroes may get mad at vigilantes once in a while, because heroes get killed by vigilantes. But vigilantes also kill villains, Chuck. And if they didn't kill the villains, you know what you'd get? You'd get your vigilantes and your heroes all blown up!
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Yes Wolf that was a great post , in fact a Super post |
Originally Posted by Wolfram
Well, bear in mind that IC our characters' alignments are as invisible as their names.
OOC, it's necessary to be flexible, as each alignment contains a range of possibilities. |
and yes IC our characters' alignments are invisible, up to the point that the toon become know, and there is some public history of the toons actions, after all we are talking RP toons, most of whom spend much of their RP chatting about their exploits, the CoXverse has news reports, a level 50 vigilante is likely to be renown, and just as their name may be well known, so may their alignment.
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Well, y'know Chuck, that's just plain old wrong.|
Originally Posted by Psianide
See, there's three kinds of people: vigilantes, heroes, and villains.
Heroes think everyone can get along, and vigilantes just want to kill all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your villains, Chuck. And all that them villains want is to blow up everything! So, heroes may get mad at vigilantes once in a while, because heroes get killed by vigilantes. But vigilantes also kill villains, Chuck. And if they didn't kill the villains, you know what you'd get? You'd get your vigilantes and your heroes all blown up! |
I have a villain that commits no major crimes, doesn't kill people, doesn't kidnap them, doesn't blow things up, or anything like that.
What she DOES do, is sell information, any information, to the highest bidder. Then she'll sell it again if she can.
She'll also sell people out too. She's after just one thing, lots and lots of personal wealth.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
Then, game-wise, she's a Rogue. About the only aspect of Rogue behaviour you missed out is saving people for profit, which many a Rogue mission entails.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
She's after just one thing, lots and lots of personal wealth.
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Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Well, y'know Chuck, that's just plain old wrong.
I have a villain that commits no major crimes, doesn't kill people, doesn't kidnap them, doesn't blow things up, or anything like that. What she DOES do, is sell information, any information, to the highest bidder. Then she'll sell it again if she can. She'll also sell people out too. She's after just one thing, lots and lots of personal wealth. |
yep i agree with Ravenswing she sounds much much more like a Rogue, however we dont know HOW she obtains the Infomation in the first place, but given the list of what she doesnt do i am guessing she doesnt eat peoples brains to steal the info.
TBH i can see many people will not bother to do the missions to make their Villains into Rogues or heroes into Vigi's.
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Surely if she'll sell info to anyone, she would sell it to heroes too, thus saving people for profit?
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
Then, game-wise, she's a Rogue. About the only aspect of Rogue behaviour you missed out is saving people for profit, which many a Rogue mission entails.
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Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Hero A buys some information from Doku that results in saving people.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Surely if she'll sell info to anyone, she would sell it to heroes too, thus saving people for profit?
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Doku profits.
Villain A buys Hero A's location from Doku
Hero gets smeared, people might get smeared too. Doku profits.
Make of that what you will.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
But even if I had Vigilantes I'd probably make them heroes. I like the Hero Tokens! They get shiny recipes.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Powerfist
Yes Wolf that was a great post , in fact a Super post
and yes IC our characters' alignments are invisible, up to the point that the toon become know, and there is some public history of the toons actions, after all we are talking RP toons, most of whom spend much of their RP chatting about their exploits, the CoXverse has news reports, a level 50 vigilante is likely to be renown, and just as their name may be well known, so may their alignment. |
Hero - Lawful Good
Vigliante- Lawful Evil
Rogue - Neutral Evil
Villian- Chaotic Evil
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Yeah. No. Read up for the debates we've had on the Alignment system for here and D&D. It just doesn't work.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
Hero - Lawful Good
Vigliante- Lawful Evil Rogue - Neutral Evil Villian- Chaotic Evil |
Vigilantes are NOT LAWFUL. That is why they are Vigilantes, they go beyond the law! Rogues could be lawful! Heroes could go to the spirit of the law and not the letter! Not all villains are forces of chaos!
The D&D Alignment system is RUBBISH. People don't fit into these little slots. Okay, some characters can, but they tend to wind up a little bland and flat. It's pure batnut popcorn insane to think you can sum up four groups with varied reasons, morals, codes of conduct and history with two words! One hero and another hero will not act the same.
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ya , that is a real issue with these new GR alignments the hero/villain rewards are just so sweet, i did think long and hard before doing the rogue and vigi missions.
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Originally Posted by Fanservice
But even if I had Vigilantes I'd probably make them heroes. I like the Hero Tokens! They get shiny recipes.
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which one doesn't work?
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Originally Posted by Zortel
Yeah. No. Read up for the debates we've had on the Alignment system for here and D&D. It just doesn't work.
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The way I see it, as demonstrated by 4 characters:
Hero:
Rushmore:
Rushmore tries to be a good hero. He is patriotic, but when it comes to America he is more for the people than the laws. He knows that sometimes you have to work against them in the interests of the people. If he happened to catch someone stealing bread to feed their family, he'd likely tell them that they shouldn't have to resort to that, and he'd buy the bread out of his own pocket for them rather than arresting them while chatting to them, finding out if there were any suggestions he could make to help them get back on their feet, and pointing people in the right direction.
The Law, for Rushmore, is a thing of government that you should try your best to stick to and to believe in, but that the spirit of the law should be stuck to, rather than the letter, and that it is more important to rehabilitate than to punish, to get criminals to make amends with their victims and to work on repaying them.
He believes in the tenants the constitution was founded on, and strives to help the people make America better.
Vigilante:
Fear Trigger:
When Olivia Vano's mother was killed due to Family politics for having an affair, the young psychic and granddaughter of Don Vano had the rush of feelings from her mother's dying moments burned into her mind forever. She has seen the excesses of organized crime, the cruelty and disregard for human life, and the spreading of poison for profit.
She has also seen the failings of the justice system, of people through money, power or force getting away with murder. Literally. It sickened her, and she stepped forth to stop it.
After all, who'd expect Family to hunt Family?
As Fear Trigger, Olivia seeks to rid the city, and the world of organized crime. Not by the law of the land and the courts, but by the law of the gun. For all the suffering and pain and fear they have caused, she delivers it ten-fold on them. Using her psychic powers to intimidate, terrorize and gain information by painful force for her next targets, she backs this up with her guns.
When Fear Trigger enters a Family operation, it's very, very unlikely that anyone other than her and their victims will walk out alive. To kill this creature, you have to eradicate it all, new heads will rise up after all.
Mercy was her mother's name. There is no mercy any more, only death for those she has felt done wrong.
Rogue:
Jan Boa:
Jan Boa has scruples. Only some, but scruples none the less. When it comes to getting money and resources, these things will be the counterweight. She'll take many jobs, but will refuse some outright. Anything that threatens to throw off the balance of the world is bad for long term business. Anything that hurts worker morale is bad for business.
And if something is bad for business? It has to go. Whether a job turned down, or a quick murder to cut off a source of trouble, Boa Personnel Services will do it.
They look after their own, and their friends. If they've taken a job, they'll do it with a few exceptions. Mislead them, go back on the contract, and it's hell to pay.
Villain:
((This is where I fall down, as I currently have none. Whoops. Basically, they're in it for themselves and their ideals, and damn whatever else anyone wants. Be it power, the world, or just a corner of it, these people will stop at nothing except maybe their own personal code to get it. They may think of themselves as good, or necessary evil, but when they get to work, others best fear. The danger with them comes from the varying forms villainy can take, from the urbane manipulator to the psychotic destroyer, and the gamut in between.))
SUPPORT - IT'S NOT JUST A GROUPING OF ATs
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