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Uhh Lawful doesn't mean you follow the law to the letter, it means you have a set of codes and values you always obey. |
Originally Posted by Zortel
Check out the addendum I made to my post. To sum up again though:
Vigilantes are NOT LAWFUL. That is why they are Vigilantes, they go beyond the law! Rogues could be lawful! Heroes could go to the spirit of the law and not the letter! Not all villains are forces of chaos! The D&D Alignment system is RUBBISH. People don't fit into these little slots. Okay, some characters can, but they tend to wind up a little bland and flat. It's pure batnut popcorn insane to think you can sum up four groups with varied reasons, morals, codes of conduct and history with two words! One hero and another hero will not act the same. |
And Rogues will only be lawful for their own gain, thats the underlying motiviation, personal gain. Not because they have some rules they always follow.
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Sorry, but pretty much all of them. Check back on the first two pages of this thread, but the general consensus is that the d&d alignment system is too simplistic to really use in this situation.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
which one doesn't work?
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"Don't go away mad, just go away..." The best line Clint never said.
#406785 - Assisting the PPD
how can a system with 9 alighments be more simplistic than one with 4?
Because when the 4 are far more vauge and open to intepritation and alternate takes then the 9.
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that makes it more simplistic
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Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
Because when the 4 are far more vauge and open to intepritation and alternate takes then the 9.
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Wait what?
1=A
2=B
3=C
4=D
5=E
6=F
7=G
8=H
9=I
Is more complex then
1= A or B and C
2= D or I or H
3= I and E or G
4= F or H or B
?
A lot of problems that come out of alignment systems is the assumption that the labeled alignment is a straight jacket for the character. Alignment is a label for a characters general tendencies, like saying "He's a happy go lucky guy" or "He's a jerk." People are not universally one thing all the time, but over time, their past history gives way to patterns, patterns that are identified and labeled.
Infinity
Sam Varden 50 MA/Reg Scrap
Doomtastic 50 SS/Inv Brute
Ceus 50 Eng/Kin Corr
Cinderstorm 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
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The whole d&d system is generally pretty simple from the point of view of moral choice. Hence the reason why it's often peoples first pnp rp game (as I said earlier). In d&d adventures you are presented with choices that usually come down to: Choice A=bad things happen, Choice B=good things happen.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
how can a system with 9 alighments be more simplistic than one with 4?
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We are talking about a system where the choices are not clear cut. Choice A=day is saved, but now little Timmy's dad doesn't have the money he was stealing to pay for the medical treatment.
D&D has a very black and white morality system. CoX (and many other games) deal in shades of grey. This is why the 9 alignment options will not ever work as anything more than a very vague guide.
"Don't go away mad, just go away..." The best line Clint never said.
#406785 - Assisting the PPD
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This is the problem with the alignment system. Something that vague can apply to nearly anyone as everyone's got at least SOME rules they follow. |
Originally Posted by Dz131
Uhh Lawful doesn't mean you follow the law to the letter, it means you have a set of codes and values you always obey.
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I always go to work, does this make me Lawful alignment?
The Joker always creates chaos, does this make him Lawful?
It's silly.
And it's why 4ed stripped it down to Lawful Good (Follows the Law and does good), Good (Does Good, not always within the law), Unaligned (Tries not to step on anyones toes), Evil (Self over others) and Chaotic Evil (Bwahaha!)
It also works a lot better for us as it gives us
Hero: Lawful Good
Vigilante: Good
Rogue: Evil
Villain: Chaotic Evil
Though again, since this is fairly meaningless by this point I'm not even sure why I'm doing it!
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wait wut?|
Originally Posted by _Fea_
The whole d&d system is generally pretty simple from the point of view of moral choice. Hence the reason why it's often peoples first pnp rp game (as I said earlier). In d&d adventures you are presented with choices that usually come down to: Choice A=bad things happen, Choice B=good things happen.
We are talking about a system where the choices are not clear cut. Choice A=day is saved, but now little Timmy's dad doesn't have the money he was stealing to pay for the medical treatment. D&D has a very black and white morality system. CoX (and many other games) deal in shades of grey. This is why the 9 alignment options will not ever work as anything more than a very vague guide. |
are you playing the same game? When I get tip missions there's never any gray areas. Villians always do random bad, rogue always want to profit, (never played vig so I don't know), and heroes always doing some weird hero stuff (only played a couple)
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This is the problem with the alignment system. Something that vague can apply to nearly anyone as everyone's got at least SOME rules they follow. I always go to work, does this make me Lawful alignment? The Joker always creates chaos, does this make him Lawful? It's silly. And it's why 4ed stripped it down to Lawful Good (Follows the Law and does good), Good (Does Good, not always within the law), Unaligned (Tries not to step on anyones toes), Evil (Self over others) and Chaotic Evil (Bwahaha!) It also works a lot better for us as it gives us Hero: Lawful Good Vigilante: Good Rogue: Evil Villain: Chaotic Evil Though again, since this is fairly meaningless by this point I'm not even sure why I'm doing it! |
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The common thread in all Vigilante missions is they're serving some idea of a 'greater good' and if they have to get their hands dirty or a few others have to suffer to do so then they're absolutely fine with that.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
I don't see how you can think someone that makes life/death judgments on people's lives based on their own set of morals and values even remotely good.
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While of course there's room to argue that this way isn't ideal, both their intentions and thier actions are serving towards doing something Good. Which is what matters.
Plus there's lots of good people in fiction (And real life too no doubt) who make Life and Death Judgements based on their own set of morals and values. Wild West Sheriffs, Nearly every Superhero until the Modern Age and people witness to accidents to name but a few.
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by your definition just having 'good' and 'evil' must be the most complex alignment system known to man. The simpler something is, the more open to interpretation it is, the more complex and specific is less open to interpretation. That's not rocket science.
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Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
Wait what?
1=A 2=B 3=C 4=D 5=E 6=F 7=G 8=H 9=I Is more complex then 1= A or B and C 2= D or I or H 3= I and E or G 4= F or H or B ? |
Okay, so this has stretched a little far afield, but the one thing I was always careful to modify in my D&D games was the "Lawful = obeys the law" thing (and yes, it was written that way in many of the rulebooks).
To me, Lawful Good means "obeys a code of conduct designed to benefit the most people as much as possible" while Lawful Evil means "obeys a code of conduct to benefit themselves (or an affiliation) as much as possible". Chaotic Good is "does whatever seems necessary to benefit the most people as much as possible" and Chaotic Evil is "does whatever seems necessary to benefit themselves (or an affiliation) as much as possible".
Without this clarification, a Paladin in D&D is an impotent class if the find themselves in an Evil society, because if it's "follows the law", the Paladin has no choice but to follow the Evil laws. And that's utter bunkum.
Please note that this pretty much reduces the 9 classic D&D alignments to the simplified 4E alignment system, because the pairings LE and NE, CG and NG are effectively identical.
Bringing this back to CoH, a Hero (selflessly perform acts to the benefit of others) is fairly close to LG, while a Vigilante is clearly NG or CG (Good, in the 4E system) (performs whatever actions are needed to get the "good" result they are seeking). A Villain is Chaotic Evil (of course, take any well RP'd villain, scratch the surface, and you'll find that they are usually doing "evil" things to the benefit of people that aren't themselves or their "group" - they often are acting "for the benefit of everyone"), while a Rogue is actually pretty close to Neutral - making and breaking promises with equal fervour, helping others and harming them depending on what mood strikes them.
Anyway, all that said and done, I think Wolfram's post is far and away the best description I've seen here.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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No, what he's saying is that the 9 classic D&D alignments don't map easily to a 4-alignment system. There are complex crossovers.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
by your definition just having 'good' and 'evil' must be the most complex alignment system known to man. The simpler something is, the more open to interpretation it is, the more complex and specific is less open to interpretation. That's not rocket science.
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To take your example, how would you map the 9 D&D aligments to the 2-alignment "Good and Evil only" system you refer to?
(My answer is: I don't want to try it, thanks.)
It's not about the complexity of the alignment system in question, it's that mapping equivalency of the D&D alignment system to any other alignment system is a non-trivial matter.
So, rather than trying to explain the CoH aligment chart in terms of an alignment chart from a completely different game, we're trying to define those 4 alignments. Wolfram's post wins my vote so far.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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I refute it thus: Superman.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
I don't see how you can think someone that makes life/death judgments on people's lives based on their own set of morals and values even remotely good.
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The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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lol? Superman goes around beating/killing people because he thinks they should die, or because 'they had it coming'? Superman (majority of the time, many writers etc) deals with people that has knowingly broke the state law(e.g. already criminals). He doesn't have his own set of rules that he forces on people so he can judge them. That's more like Frank Miller's Batman, who is Lawful Evil. Superman is a huge moral freak to the max, not even close to a vigilante.|
Originally Posted by Shadowe
I refute it thus: Superman.
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No, what he's saying is that the 9 classic D&D alignments don't map easily to a 4-alignment system. There are complex crossovers. To take your example, how would you map the 9 D&D aligments to the 2-alignment "Good and Evil only" system you refer to? (My answer is: I don't want to try it, thanks.) It's not about the complexity of the alignment system in question, it's that mapping equivalency of the D&D alignment system to any other alignment system is a non-trivial matter. So, rather than trying to explain the CoH aligment chart in terms of an alignment chart from a completely different game, we're trying to define those 4 alignments. Wolfram's post wins my vote so far. |
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He read them a lot better than you managed to.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
did you even read the posts?
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@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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lol here comes the cheap shots. Not that I expected anything more.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
He read them a lot better than you managed to.
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Cheap? Nah, that one cost at least $49.99. |
Originally Posted by Dz131
lol here comes the cheap shots. Not that I expected anything more.
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@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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I was going to ignore you but that was actually a pretty good response
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Cheap? Nah, that one cost at least $49.99.
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While Shad is right about certian things in my assesment, just Good and Evil really is a massivley complicated system.
So complciated infact that in an attempt to make life easier for eeryone we have to invent more classifications for things to even begin to make sense.
As if you'll recall back before GR when we had two alignments, Villian (Evil) covered everything from people out only for profit, to people trying to make teh world confrom to what they thought was best by force to spycopathic killers.
And that's just 'evil', the more general the label gets the more complicated it becomes to define exactly what it means and if a charater falls under it or not.
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Are you sure your don't have it the other way around? Generalization is what makes complicated things easier/quicker to grasp. Same with stereotyping etc. Its why people do it in real life all the time, rather than going into detail about everything, because 'that makes everything too complicated'.
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Originally Posted by Omega_Chief
While Shad is right about certian things in my assesment, just Good and Evil really is a massivley complicated system.
So complciated infact that in an attempt to make life easier for eeryone we have to invent more classifications for things to even begin to make sense. As if you'll recall back before GR when we had two alignments, Villian (Evil) covered everything from people out only for profit, to people trying to make teh world confrom to what they thought was best by force to spycopathic killers. And that's just 'evil', the more general the label gets the more complicated it becomes to define exactly what it means and if a charater falls under it or not. |
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Originally Posted by Dz131
I don't see how you can think someone that makes life/death judgments on people's lives based on their own set of morals and values even remotely good.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
lol? Superman goes around beating/killing people because he thinks they should die, or because 'they had it coming'? Superman (majority of the time, many writers etc) deals with people that has knowingly broke the state law(e.g. already criminals). He doesn't have his own set of rules that he forces on people so he can judge them. That's more like Frank Miller's Batman, who is Lawful Evil. Superman is a huge moral freak to the max, not even close to a vigilante.
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Just because he chooses to always save lives and never kill doesn't mean he's not making that judgement. If it's not his own morals and values, one would have to ask who is enforcing those morals on him. He got them as he grew up, but nobody is forcing him to keep them except himself.
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| did you even read the posts? |
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Really? In that case Lex Luther would be dead by now. Since Superman would go after him even after he was cleared in court, because 'he played the system for the last time!!'. But that's obviously not how superman operates. He obeys the law (majority incarnations), and doesn't intervene with the process unless he absolutely has to. No doing vigilante actions. |
Originally Posted by Shadowe
I think I can make a fairly convincing argument that Superman makes life and death judgements on peoples lives based on his own set of morals and values.
Just because he chooses to always save lives and never kill doesn't mean he's not making that judgement. If it's not his own morals and values, one would have to ask who is enforcing those morals on him. He got them as he grew up, but nobody is forcing him to keep them except himself. |
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| Quite thoroughly. Your argument was a clear cut matching of the four-alignment CoH system onto a subset of the classic 9-alignment system from D&D, and is clearly not correct. You then argued that a 2-alignment system would be more complex than a 9-alignment system, in an attempt to refute someone else's post which stated that the mapping of 9 alignments onto 4 is more complex (less transparent, harder to deduce without prior knowledge) than simply defining the 9 alignments. I pointed out that it is not that 4 alignments are more complex than 9, but that mapping those 9 alignments onto 4 generates complexity in the mapping process, so the equivalency is mapping the 9-alignment system to your proposed 2-alignment system. I contend that it is too complex to do so. |
Vigilantes are NOT LAWFUL. That is why they are Vigilantes, they go beyond the law! Rogues could be lawful! Heroes could go to the spirit of the law and not the letter! Not all villains are forces of chaos!
The D&D Alignment system is RUBBISH. People don't fit into these little slots. Okay, some characters can, but they tend to wind up a little bland and flat. It's pure batnut popcorn insane to think you can sum up four groups with varied reasons, morals, codes of conduct and history with two words! One hero and another hero will not act the same.
SUPPORT - IT'S NOT JUST A GROUPING OF ATs
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More Than a Game
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