The best trio
By
Candlestick,
Posted on: 2010-09-18 07:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Off the top of my head...
Kin/Sonic, FF/Sonic, and Emp/Sonic Defender. Could mix and match with other primaries and still be quite effective.
End game: Fire/Kin troller, Fire/Rad corr, Rad/Sonic def. Good buffs, debuffs, control, AoE, ST
leveling up: 3 Emp/Sonic/Dark defenders. Capped defense, endless endurance, huge regen, perma hasten/AB/SD, and consistantly huge +dam and -res. At 12, 18, 22, 26, 32, 38, 47 their abilities will increase by a TON.
Early game: Ice/Fire tank, Fire/En blaster, Fire/FF troller. Tank grabs aggro, blaster unleashes hell, and troller buffs both and keeps things inside RoF for the blaster.
Speedy AV: 3 Fire/Rad trollers. Youtube it on STF.
Task Force: 3 Fire/Rad trollers. Watch that video again.
On second thought, the 3 Fire/Rads might just might make it for all of these. Maybe not the early game one, but I count that as pre-22 game, so the RI and EV might still give these guys the pick for that one.
**EDIT:
Looked up the video as soon as I posted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSoR7nq6b_g
3x Broadsword/Shield Scrappers. Your defense would be through the roof and you'd have nutty good burst damage.
~union4lyfe~
I would run a Fire/Dark corr, Fire/Fire blaster and an Ice/EM tank.
AV's no problem, damage no problem and everything meets the joy that is BURN!
3 sonic/cold corrs
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Kinetic/Sonic Corrupter or Defender
*/* Brute
*/* Scrapper
Couple of opinions:
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Damage on this trio will most likely be very high with multible res debuff but:| Kin/Sonic, FF/Sonic, and Emp/Sonic Defender |
- I might be more effective with Corruptors, damage scale (O.65 vs 0.75) may do seem much but damage cap (+400 vs +300%) is really something when you have FS.
- I'm a fraid without any very strong dmg resist buff some vilain groups/AV may mash you down pretty easy with, for exemple, Defense Debuffs. You also may experience issues at low level to eat some alphas.
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| Fire/Kin troller, Fire/Rad corr, Rad/Sonic def. |
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| 3 sonic/cold corrs |
Also you will very most likely have hard time against heavy defense debuffers (AV might be fine because of stacking damage/recharge debuffs but huge +4 packs will hurt bad).
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| 3 Emp/Sonic/Dark defenders |
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| 3 Fire/Rad trollers. |
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| 3x Broadsword/Shield Scrapper |
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| Ice/Fire tank, Fire/En blaster, Fire/FF troller. |
No kin is sad. No heal (like 0 heal) is sad on extreme situations.
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| Fire/Dark corr, Fire/Fire blaster and an Ice/EM tank. |
Tho, why /dark?, why /fire? and why Ice/EM?
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Kinetic/Sonic Corrupter or Defender */* Brute */* Scrapper |
Tho, Kin/Brute/Scrap will definately be badass but you have to go with a very defensive brute set or you will have problem to handle very large/high spawns. I wouldnt pick a def or corr tho, trollers have more to bring on the table imo.
*/* means whatever for either primary or secondary. Either of those ATs are just absolute beasts at damage cap regardless of powerset.
Corrupter and Defender do get an nuke at 38 that will just wipe a spawn out every 2-3 minutes or so assuming Hasten and Siphon Speed. Controllers do provide a lot of things but their controls actually hurt the Brute's fury generation so that needs to be balanced into your thinking as well.
Also you don't really need super high survivability in the Brute. Kinetic heal is insane and recharges really quickly. At 50 you can have a 500 HP area effect heal up every 5 seconds or so along with the melee players means they aren't going to die unless something truly bad occurs. Far more likely that the Kinetic will get a boss on them and get one shot to be honest.
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You seem to overestimate kin's power. It is a strong set, but it is not a necesity like you seem to think it is. +dmg is not the only important thing in here, and as you specified AVs, kin is very subpar for a (de)buff set against AVs. |
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Couple of opinions:
...but damage cap (+400 vs +300%) is really something when you have FS... ...There is no way this trio is better than, lets say, cold-cold-KIN... ...No fulcrum shift :/ ... ...but like you do lose a LOT of damage not having a Kin... ...No kin is sad... ...But no Kin will hurt bad... |
True, you loose some damage capabilities, but look at it in terms of time, not damage dealt. To kill a large group, the three players in the trio will have to get everything down to 0 health. To do so, it will take lets say 1 AoE from each player, then about 2 attacks each to mop up the bosses in the group. Without FS, three AoEs from either buffed players or against debuffed enemies will kill the minions no problem. Then 1-2 ST attacks (per player) will kill the bosses off. If the group can get it done without FS in say 15 sec per mob, all the attacks will be used, and applied. With FS on, the same players will start off with the same AoE attacks to whittle down the group, but the third AoE might be a wasted power if the first 2 attacks kill everything. The boss will still have the characters pound 2 attacks into him, regardless of whether or not all of them are needed to kill it.
My point is, if it still takes the same amount of attacks to kill something, more damage per attack is doing no good. Kin is fine, but in your idea of a "super trio" it is not an optimal choice, especially when it does very little to help survivability, and other sets can buff damage on top of that survivability.
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I do almost agree. Almost.|
Originally Posted by Savos
*/* means whatever for either primary or secondary. Either of those ATs are just absolute beasts at damage cap regardless of powerset.
Corrupter and Defender do get an nuke at 38 that will just wipe a spawn out every 2-3 minutes or so assuming Hasten and Siphon Speed. Controllers do provide a lot of things but their controls actually hurt the Brute's fury generation so that needs to be balanced into your thinking as well. Also you don't really need super high survivability in the Brute. Kinetic heal is insane and recharges really quickly. At 50 you can have a 500 HP area effect heal up every 5 seconds or so along with the melee players means they aren't going to die unless something truly bad occurs. Far more likely that the Kinetic will get a boss on them and get one shot to be honest. |
Troller's control does indeed mess with Brute's fury generation but it brings 3 things that are quite important:
-1 Every defense sets have weaknesses, it will be some villain groups or specific AV who will mash down your brute. Having CC options one some specific mobs can be very life saving.
-2 At some point you WILL fight groups larger than the aggro limit. Crown Control will help troller himself and eventually Scrapper to survive overnumber.
-3 A lot of Kin's power have to be casted at melee range to get benefit. The kin himself "could" skip FS (but than his damage abilities are very hurt) but Transfusion and Transferance are vital. Having strong Controls allows to sit more safely at melee range (some AoEs can be terrible for squishy, even minion's AoE, Nemesis anyone?) and play your Kinetics propely.
Now Corr and Def''s nuke are great. Mosly for kins with natural more recharge and endo boost on demand. But in my experience what is stated earlier is generally more important.
On the pure damage table Controlers completely over damages Defenders with Concealment (0.65 vs 0.55... x2). Corruptors does have both more damage scale (0.75) and a highter damage cap (400 vs 300%) but in my experience the fact that play Kin takes so much action/time really make the difference lower.
As for others,
I do think a low defensive Brute will have hard time. Transfusion is great but it absolutely doesnt make the trick on a /FA brute fighting +4 Longbows for exemple.
As for scrapper it kina depend on what the brute is. Lets say if the brute is Elec than a high single target damage scrapper like Katana would be better, is the brute is DM than maybe Elec or Fire would cover the AoE.
Putting in some numbers:
My Kinetic defender can maintain about 3 stacks of Siphon power, and 2 stacks of Fulcrum Shift. Against a single target thats 25% * 3 + (50% + 25%) * 2 = 225% damage while reducing damage output of the AV by a significant amount.
Adding in base plus enhanced, everyone is operating at 425% damage. Good, not capped though.
Add in Sonic debuffs and that goes to (4.25) * (1 + 0.2 * [debuff count])
With just 2 Sonic debuffs, you can get to ~600% damage for every attack.
Can other sets reach this level on just a single target?
Choose two SoA and add a Corr/Defender with resistance shield set like Thermal or Pain Domination.
Two SoAs carrying two maneuvers is about 38-40% defense against all for the team. What SoA needs is some resistance to backup unfortunate hits. Thermal and Pain Domination will be good as they offer healing as well. Sonic has good resistance but has no healing back up unless the corr/def/troller use Aid Other.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
2 Fire/Cold Corrs and 1 Fire/Kin Corr.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Before I reply, I'll go ahead and say no trio will be perfect and the "best" one will always be subjective. There will be holes and always something you can sub that'll make it better in one area though worse in another. To respond point by point...|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Damage on this trio will most likely be very high with multible res debuff but:
- I might be more effective with Corruptors, damage scale (O.65 vs 0.75) may do seem much but damage cap (+400 vs +300%) is really something when you have FS. - I'm a fraid without any very strong dmg resist buff some vilain groups/AV may mash you down pretty easy with, for exemple, Defense Debuffs. You also may experience issues at low level to eat some alphas. |
-Corruptors get neither Empathy or Force Field. Your only other options for those powersets are Controllers or, for the latter, Masterminds. Both have lower buff/debuff values Additionally, against any target that matters, the highest resistance debuff values in Sonic attacks should outweigh the lower damage cap, especially against single hard targets where you're not likely to be capped by Fulcrum Shift.
-At softcapped defense for the other teammates by 22 if the FFer takes Maneuvers and slots it, very little will get through to hurt the trio. FF can reach the softcap itself with a little bit of IO slotting and good power picks, or maybe just via slotted Fortitude. What does make it through can easily be patched by the Kin or Emp. Defense Debuffs are an issue, though this can be mitigated via Siren's Song to sleep the majority of the mob before taking down problem targets and by Empathy's heals/regen/extra defense from Fort. Alphas are never an issue. A FF Defender has access to Personal Force Field right out of the gate, which adds massive defense and resistance.
-While issues with defense debuffs and lack of resistance can show in some instances, the team would be quite strong at all levels. The FFer would be providing tons of resistance, controls via knockback/down and stun, emergency Detention Fields, and the ability to keep everything out of melee range. The Kin would provide healing, massive damage buffs, recharge buffs, recovery buffs, regeneration debuffs, recharge debuffs, super speed for everyone, super jump for everyone, and endurance recovery. The Empath would provide massive heals, massive regeneration, massive recovery buffs, recharge buffs, accuracy buffs, damage buffs, defense buffs, and emergency rezzing. Probably the best way to patch the trio's few weaknesses would be to add a Thermal or a Sonic Res to add resistances, though that'd be a quartet. Alternatively, as staying a trio, they could all simply pick up an APP with resistance shields.
One change I'd make to my trio would be to swap out someone's Sonic Attack for Ice Blast. Ice Storm and Blizzard use Blaster base damage. So, after massive sonic debuffing and kin damage buffing, the Ice Blast Defender would be doing a huge mess of damage while still retaining Defender buff/debuff values. Plus it'd add a bit more AoE to the group than going three-straight Sonic Attack would. Hard targets would be a little bit harder, but it should still be a non-issue.
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FF is nice, solft caping def on the whole team at 1st SOing is absolutly amazing BUT at higher level it becomes weaker imo. You have to remember its only 3 players, bringing "only" def isnt enough compared to what Cold brings. Cold is only 5% def less than FF, what can be fixed with mutiple maneuvre (running a defender team make leadership almost must have for every member) and Cold brings so much more.|
-Corruptors get neither Empathy or Force Field. Your only other options for those powersets are Controllers or, for the latter, Masterminds. Both have lower buff/debuff values Additionally, against any target that matters, the highest resistance debuff values in Sonic attacks should outweigh the lower damage cap, especially against single hard targets where you're not likely to be capped by Fulcrum Shift. -At softcapped defense for the other teammates by 22 if the FFer takes Maneuvers and slots it, very little will get through to hurt the trio. FF can reach the softcap itself with a little bit of IO slotting and good power picks, or maybe just via slotted Fortitude. What does make it through can easily be patched by the Kin or Emp. Defense Debuffs are an issue, though this can be mitigated via Siren's Song to sleep the majority of the mob before taking down problem targets and by Empathy's heals/regen/extra defense from Fort. Alphas are never an issue. A FF Defender has access to Personal Force Field right out of the gate, which adds massive defense and resistance. -While issues with defense debuffs and lack of resistance can show in some instances, the team would be quite strong at all levels. The FFer would be providing tons of resistance, controls via knockback/down and stun, emergency Detention Fields, and the ability to keep everything out of melee range. The Kin would provide healing, massive damage buffs, recharge buffs, recovery buffs, regeneration debuffs, recharge debuffs, super speed for everyone, super jump for everyone, and endurance recovery. The Empath would provide massive heals, massive regeneration, massive recovery buffs, recharge buffs, accuracy buffs, damage buffs, defense buffs, and emergency rezzing. Probably the best way to patch the trio's few weaknesses would be to add a Thermal or a Sonic Res to add resistances, though that'd be a quartet. Alternatively, as staying a trio, they could all simply pick up an APP with resistance shields. One change I'd make to my trio would be to swap out someone's Sonic Attack for Ice Blast. Ice Storm and Blizzard use Blaster base damage. So, after massive sonic debuffing and kin damage buffing, the Ice Blast Defender would be doing a huge mess of damage while still retaining Defender buff/debuff values. Plus it'd add a bit more AoE to the group than going three-straight Sonic Attack would. Hard targets would be a little bit harder, but it should still be a non-issue. |
Emp doesnt fitt great imo in your team. Kin covers the endo usage, FF covers the defense domain, if you bring Sonic instead it will bring much more resilience.
Ice Blast is weak. I mean, single target DPS is fine but side effet is quite useless, Freezing Rain is ridiculous and Frost Breath is terrible. Blizzard indeed amazing but as the only AOE decent AoE attack is pretty much not enough. If you bring something that is not Sonic it would be for reliable utility (Dark, Rad) or superior AoE (Fire, Rad, AS, Archery).
Imo the best trio (following your fender/corr concept) would be:
Fire-Kin Corr (because kin is the least hurt by lower numbers) for easier xp-ing at lower level, controller be more handy but shines on late 40ies.
Sonic-Sonic Fender (Pain-Sonic Corr will also work fine)
Cold-Sonic Fender
All three with Medicine and Leadership.
Me and my friends are rolling a trio of Corrupters right now.
Dark/Dark, for the awesome debuffs, and tar patch
Arch/Cold, The Shields and Frostwork give us alot more toughness, and the debuffs are great.
Fire/Kin, For Speedboost and pure raw damage.
So far, the speed we are flying through stuff is just incredible. Haven't faced our first AV yet, but I imagine it will be cakewalk. Our AoE damage right now is pretty much... Crazy.
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Its hard not to |
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
You seem to overestimate kin's power.
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In a trio situation Kin will bring:
- One of the 2 best AoE heal
- Regen cut, priceless on many AV
- About -80% dmg on single target without any IO set
- About -60% recharge on single target without any IO set
- nearly 20% S/L res on a deMez power (making it the best by far demez power in the game)
- Team Travel powers (Super speed and Super jump) allowing teamate to skip these if wanted
- 50% rec and recharge single target buff. No self (but recharge is widely covered by siphon speed) but PERMA out of the box. Remember AM is "just" 30%, yes gives status prot but its far from perma till heavy IOing.
- Anytime HEAVY AoE endurance boost and sap (on application drains to 0 about anything that is not AV)
- Godly unmatched damage buff/debuff, bringing the group to +300% on 10 mobs packs, raising more and more as the global recharge of the hero goes up.
You just cant go and calculate "ok so 8 minions plus 4 leut plus 2 bosses on Arachnos cost us 4 fireballs and a half so a 40% damage buff is enough". Unexpected aggro happends, ambush does spawn, high resist mob groups exist, number of bosses is variable... more damge is just MORE damage. And we r not talking about +10 or 15% here (which is actually meaningfull) but +300% and more.
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I do believe it, tho I would have picked defender for the Cold Dominator, Corr's numbers are really lower. Even with Shadowfall you wont be caped at SO lvl. Of course the Dark Misma will cripple mob accuracy so hard that you may wont even notice the diference.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
Me and my friends are rolling a trio of Corrupters right now.
Dark/Dark, for the awesome debuffs, and tar patch Arch/Cold, The Shields and Frostwork give us alot more toughness, and the debuffs are great. Fire/Kin, For Speedboost and pure raw damage. So far, the speed we are flying through stuff is just incredible. Haven't faced our first AV yet, but I imagine it will be cakewalk. Our AoE damage right now is pretty much... Crazy. |
Speaking of which, I dont find +def and -accu working so great together, it kina feels like wearing a jacket AND a coat. Maybe Sonic Reso or Thermal would have be a better synergy. Or traps if your /Cold really want to be a Corr.
Archery is great, at least after 32, but the passive (innate accuracy) doesnt bring much to the team imo.
Sonic/Traps Corr
Rad/Cold Corr
Fire/Kin Corr
Would just kick *** hardcore.
Anyways, you ll probably roll over anything you face with your set up.
3 fire/dark corrs.
Floored tohit effectively softcaps everyone. -dmg effectively boosts resistance to the ceiling. Toss in some -regen and 3 fluffies
Fire is fire. There is nothing in this game that 3 fireballs can't fix. And by fix, I mean **** its day up real bad.
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Exactly, which is why I am not to terribly concerned with how absolutely perfect our team is. We are already making a mockery of the game content as is. |
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Anyways, you ll probably roll over anything you face with your set up. |
Should be noted that 1 Rad Blast in the team is a good idea if you are min/maxing your team. Have them slot Achilles Heels for additional -20% resistance.
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Only downside with the 3 Fire/Darks is they are all kinda end hoggy. I would do 2 Fire/Darks and 1 Fire/Kin.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
3 fire/dark corrs.
Floored tohit effectively softcaps everyone. -dmg effectively boosts resistance to the ceiling. Toss in some -regen and 3 fluffies Fire is fire. There is nothing in this game that 3 fireballs can't fix. And by fix, I mean **** its day up real bad. |
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This is pretty much what I'd have gone for. Although personally I'd have picked Ice/Dark over Dark/Dark just because my Dark/Kin corrupter was unimpressive.
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Originally Posted by Candlestick
Me and my friends are rolling a trio of Corrupters right now.
Dark/Dark, for the awesome debuffs, and tar patch Arch/Cold, The Shields and Frostwork give us alot more toughness, and the debuffs are great. Fire/Kin, For Speedboost and pure raw damage. So far, the speed we are flying through stuff is just incredible. Haven't faced our first AV yet, but I imagine it will be cakewalk. Our AoE damage right now is pretty much... Crazy. |
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Dark's AoE damage is actually pretty decent with constantly spamming Tentacles and Nightfall. And the Immb is pretty helpful. Plus, more -tohit. Again, if I wanted to go for pure perfection, I would have tried to get my buddy to go Rad/Dark instead for the defense debuffs and all the Achilles Heels procs, but its not really that big of a deal.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
This is pretty much what I'd have gone for. Although personally I'd have picked Ice/Dark over Dark/Dark just because my Dark/Kin corrupter was unimpressive.
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Yeah, my secondary didn't help much, the cones coupled with Kins love of being in Melee range meant I was toing and froing way too much. Dark Miasma wouldn't have that problem.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
Dark's AoE damage is actually pretty decent with constantly spamming Tentacles and Nightfall. And the Immb is pretty helpful. Plus, more -tohit. Again, if I wanted to go for pure perfection, I would have tried to get my buddy to go Rad/Dark instead for the defense debuffs and all the Achilles Heels procs, but its not really that big of a deal.
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My main issue with Dark Blast is how it ends with a whimper. The last 3 powers are basically ranging from situational (the nuke) to absolutely useless (the other two). Life Drain could really do with a Siphon Life style boost.
If you had access to any AT/build, what do you think are the best 3 players synergy at high level? At low level? With full purps? With just DOs? For leveling? For AV/TF/SF trio'ing?