Quote:
Tankers have higher defense/resistance numbers in their armor than Brutes, for one.
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Originally Posted by Ryltaar
Hi everyone,
I need somme advice about Shield Defense + War Mace Brutes and Tanks. I started a SD/WM tank, lvl40 so far, and I like it (playstyle, survavibility etc...). But I was wondering something... My main goal is to be the main tank in TF's and such. So I chosse tank. But when I see the numbers on both archetypes, I'm a bit confused : - they have the same resistance cap - same defence cap - 300 max HP difference - Same aggro cap (17 mobs) Therefor, as Shield is a defense type powerset, you can basicaly achieve the same def/res caps as a brute and as a tank right ? But Brute have rage (that's really nice). So I'm seriously considering rolling a WM/SD Brute, so my question is : for these specific powersets, and the fact that I want to be main tank, should I play a Tank or a Brute ? I have no "end-game" experience, so I'm asking those who have. If the tank efficiency in TF's is really better than a brute, i'll keep my tank. If not, the extra damage is always welcome. Thanks for your help, Ryltaar |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
This. It's much easier to get the Tanker to the Defensive Soft Cap, and he will have better Resistance numbers on top of that.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Tankers have higher defense/resistance numbers in their armor than Brutes, for one.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Ok, so there's probably something I didn't understand...
My previous statement about res/def caps are based on this :
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Limits
max resistance to damage :
Tanker/brutes = 90%
Defense :
Tanker/brutes = +100.43% at level 1 / +225.05% at level 21+
Max Health regeneration :
Tanker/brutes = 2,100% at level 1 / 2,500% at level 20+
Max Hit-points :
Tank : 3534 / Brutes : 3212.7
Now, there's probably more to it than just numbers, that's actually why I'm asking :s
Thanks for your help
Quote:
Right, but as I said, Tankers initially have higher numbers IN their resist powers. Take, for example, Shield Defense on a Brute vs. Shield Defense on a Tanker.|
Originally Posted by Ryltaar
Ok, so there's probably something I didn't understand...
My previous statement about res/def caps are based on this : http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Limits max resistance to damage : Tanker/brutes = 90% Defense : Tanker/brutes = +100.43% at level 1 / +225.05% at level 21+ Max Health regeneration : Tanker/brutes = 2,100% at level 1 / 2,500% at level 20+ Max Hit-points : Tank : 3534 / Brutes : 3212.7 Now, there's probably more to it than just numbers, that's actually why I'm asking :s Thanks for your help |
Brute
Deflection: 11.25% Defense to Melee, 11.25% Resist to Smashing/Lethal
Tanker
Deflection: 15% Defense to Melee, 15% Resistance to Smashing Lethal
Tankers have stronger defenses by default across the board.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
Another way to say it: you're looking at the caps that can be reached. Tankers start closer to those caps than Brutes do. When they turn on a defensive toggle, they get more out of that toggle than Brutes do, and require less in the way of possibly-build-distorting IO investment to reach those caps.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Tankers have stronger defenses by default across the board.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
The *caps* are the same, but the *base values* aren't. The brute and the tanker both max out at 90% resistance, but unbuffed, the base values that the powerset provides won't be the same.
With slotted tough, true grit, and a (2 resistance slotted) deflection, a shield tank will be at 44% S/L and 23% other resistances, while a brute will only be at 33% S/L 18% other resistances. With slotted deflection, battle agility, weave, combat jumping, and phalanx, a shield tank will be sitting at 40% M/R/A def, while a brute will only be at 30%.
While the max HP cap for brutes is 3212 compared to 3534 for tanks (only a 10% advantage for the tank), neither will be at their HP cap by default. With slotted true grit, a tank will be at 2239 HP and a brute will have 1791, so the tank in this case has a 25% advantage.
So a shield tank only needs about 10% M/R/A def from IOs or buffs to softcap and maintain a buffer against debuffs, while a shield brute needs 20%. Also, the shield tank will still have more resistances and a lot more HP.
Now, if you're heavily buffed and on a team, these differences won't matter as much. But you still need almost 60% S/L and 70% E/N/F/C resistance buffing to equalize the two at 90% resistance, and the brute will never catch up to the tank in HP no matter how many frostworks you recieve (which won't be very many as that's not a common power). If you're relying on external buffs to softcap, 10% is a lot easier to get than 20%, as 10% could be gotten incidentally from things like shadowfall/steamy mist/maneuvers/etc but 20% is more likely to require a dedicated defense buffer like FF/cold/etc.
Also, what happens if the team splits, a massive ambush comes in, there is a near-wipe, or any other situation occurs which might deprive you of those team buffs? If you're relying on the team to make up the defensive differences between a tank and a brute, you're gonna be a lot more squishy than the tank when those buffs drop.
Finally, a tank has better taunting ability than a brute. They both have taunts in their auras, but tanks get an AoE splash taunt in their ST attacks while brutes only taunt the target they hit.
So I guess my point is that while under the right situations a brute can become as tough defensively as a tank, a tank is far more reliable as you can be that tough all the time instead of relying on others (as well as having splash gauntlet). If tanking is your primary goal, the Tank is still the better choice.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Quote:
Just a nit pick here, but EVERYONE has the same defense cap. |
Originally Posted by Ryltaar
- same defence cap
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More on topic to what you're asking: Yes, Brutes CAN reach Tanker numbers in Res, but you would be relying on your teammates more to achieve those numbers. And in situations where the whole team is working hard to make things happen, a Tank is less of a burden on others (if tanking is what you're aiming for) if he can survive better on his own.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Quote:
Taken from Paragonwiki:|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Just a nit pick here, but EVERYONE has the same defense cap. .
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Dominator Level 50 Defense Cap: 175%
Brute Level 50 Defense Cap: 225.05%
:/
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
Sheesh, shoulda clarified with softcap. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Taken from Paragonwiki:
Dominator Level 50 Defense Cap: 175% Brute Level 50 Defense Cap: 225.05% :/ |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Thanks for all the precisions (especially Neutrino). That was exactly what I was looking for.
I'll stay on my tank then and try something else with a brute =)
Thx again guys,
Ryltaar
I am in the same boat as you are.
Tank or Brute
I am looking at SS/SD on both and I am seeing the same things you are and while some of the replies are useful to me I am still not getting it.
I like you, want to be the Main Tank in a group.
Both Need 45% Defense in melee ranged and aoe. thats 5% chance for a mob to hit you. Anything more on either is a waste of time and money.
The brute just cost a bit more to get to that magic number.
Both need resistance, The two I downloaded tanker and brute.
Tanker has a high of 36% for lethal smashing
Brute has a high of 30%
so if I get hit with 1000 lethal damage is that
300 damage for the tank
360 damage for the brute
Damage
The tanker can Knockout Blow for about 600
the brute with 85 fury is 883.
so is the difference in resistance really that important end game?
I am new and just trying to decide my path. If I can tank 99.9% of the game and get more DPS out of it then why would I play a tanker.
See I would really like to play a tanker and be done with it but when and if I ever to get to the level of doing the Elite stuff and a brute steps up and can tank just as well as me then I will be left feeling cheated.
Maybe its just me maybe I am just to new to see but I just don't see the gap that large between tanking. Where as the gap between damage is huge.
So with enough time and money I can tank as good as a tanker but no amount of money and time will get me close to the damage of a brute? is that a correct assumption?
Thanks guys I am really just trying to figure out the best route.
To a new player the game mechanics can be very confusing as characters can have the same values but the ratio of a given power is different from class to class.
Someone posted above saying if your team wipes you will lose the buffs and die with a brute. So am I supposed to believe that the tanker will just sit there and dodge and resist till the rest of the team gets back up.
Keep in mind I am from wow and very new so that's two strikes against me starting out. So go gentle 
Oh and I really don't know the difference in the IO slotting cost or rarity.. So that's three strikes.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Saint George - Pyre: Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(3), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(3), LkGmblr-Rchg+(5)
Level 1: Jab -- Amaze-Stun(A), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg(43)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(9), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(9), LkGmblr-Rchg+(11)
Level 4: Haymaker -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(11), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Mako-Dam%(15)
Level 6: Active Defense -- HO:Membr(A), HO:Membr(7), HO:Membr(7)
Level 8: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 12: Phalanx Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(15), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(33), Numna-Heal/Rchg(37)
Level 16: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(17), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(17), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 18: True Grit -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Heal(19), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(19), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(43), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(46), S'fstPrt-ResKB(46)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(21), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(36), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(37), P'Shift-End%(37)
Level 22: Knockout Blow -- Hectmb-Dmg(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(23), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(25), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Hectmb-Dam%(27)
Level 24: Kick -- FrcFbk-Rechg%(A)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(27), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(31), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Oblit-%Dam(33)
Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 30: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(34), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 32: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34), LkGmblr-Rchg+(34)
Level 35: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dmg(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(40), FrcFbk-Rechg%(40)
Level 41: Char -- UbrkCons-Hold(A), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(42), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(42), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(42), UbrkCons-Dam%(43)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- Apoc-Dmg(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(45), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(45), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Fire Ball -- Ragnrk-Dmg(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(48), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Super Jump -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 2: Ninja Run
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Mutation Brute
Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Punch -- T'Death-Dam%(A), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(17), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(27), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), T'Death-Acc/Dmg(43)
Level 1: Deflection -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(7), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(9), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(11)
Level 2: Haymaker -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(3), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mako-Dam%(7)
Level 4: True Grit -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Heal(13), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(13)
Level 6: Battle Agility -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(9), HO:Enzym(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(40)
Level 8: Knockout Blow -- Mako-Dam%(A), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Mako-Acc/Dmg(19), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(21), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 10: Active Defense -- HO:Enzym(A), HO:Enzym(11)
Level 12: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 14: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(15), RgnTis-Regen+(46), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(48)
Level 16: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Rage -- GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(23), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(39), GSFC-ToHit(40), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(40), GSFC-Build%(43)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(23), P'Shift-EndMod(25), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(25), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(27), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(37)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 24: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 26: Super Speed -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 28: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(29), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Aegis-EndRdx/Rchg(46), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(50)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(31), HO:Enzym(31)
Level 32: Foot Stomp -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(33), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(33), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(34), FrcFbk-Rechg%(39)
Level 35: Shield Charge -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Oblit-%Dam(36), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(36), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(37), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-ResKB(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(39)
Level 41: Electrifying Fences -- Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(A), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(42), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(42), Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(42), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(43), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(46)
Level 44: Ball Lightning -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(45), Posi-Dmg/Rng(50)
Level 47: Mu Lightning -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Phalanx Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 6: Ninja Run
Interestingly enough, the two builds you show aren't slotted exactly the same.
If you slot a total of 3 lvl 50 resist IO's each into Deflection, True Grit and Tough, a Shield Defense tank will end up with 47.5% resist s/l and 23.8% to e/n/f/c. If you slot a Brute in the same manner you will end up with 35.7% s/l resist and 17.8% to e/n/f/c. Which is of course is an 11.8% difference vs. the 6% difference you showed in your two examples.
Now considering that without putting any enhancements into the baseline tank or brute, and including having taken health, a tank will be sitting at around 2436 hit points vs. a brute at 2061. Taking your 1000pts of s/l damage example, the tank will only be taking 525pts of damage compared to the brute taking 643pts of damage.
Why is that important? Well, 525 pts of damage is only 21.6% of the tanks hit points while 643 pts of damage is around 31.2% of of the brutes. So for the damage that does get through the defenses, the tank will survive quite a bit longer.
In the long run it comes down to preference in play styles. Some prefer the ability to survive more damage, some prefer to output more damage. For me, while I don't put out as much damage as a scrapper or brute, I tend to prefer the shear survivability of a tank. Considering my usual main is a Fire/Fire/Pyre tank, I'm still putting out lots of orange numbers.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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The decision to go tank or brute (or scrapper for that matter) comes up pretty regularly.
What it comes down to is this....
You play a tank for the control it gives you over the spawns.
A scrapper or a brute will be survivable enough for most if not all the content, particularly when well built or heavily IOed.
A tank will do enough damage under the same constraints.
The key difference is that tanks have na ability to control the spawns that the other three melee ATs (don't forget stalkers) with never quite match.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
Quote:
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Originally Posted by InUse
I am in the same boat as you are.
Tank or Brute I am looking at SS/SD on both and I am seeing the same things you are and while some of the replies are useful to me I am still not getting it. I like you, want to be the Main Tank in a group. Both Need 45% Defense in melee ranged and aoe. thats 5% chance for a mob to hit you. Anything more on either is a waste of time and money. The brute just cost a bit more to get to that magic number. Both need resistance, The two I downloaded tanker and brute. Tanker has a high of 36% for lethal smashing Brute has a high of 30% so if I get hit with 1000 lethal damage is that 300 damage for the tank 360 damage for the brute Damage The tanker can Knockout Blow for about 600 the brute with 85 fury is 883. so is the difference in resistance really that important end game? I am new and just trying to decide my path. If I can tank 99.9% of the game and get more DPS out of it then why would I play a tanker. See I would really like to play a tanker and be done with it but when and if I ever to get to the level of doing the Elite stuff and a brute steps up and can tank just as well as me then I will be left feeling cheated. Maybe its just me maybe I am just to new to see but I just don't see the gap that large between tanking. Where as the gap between damage is huge. So with enough time and money I can tank as good as a tanker but no amount of money and time will get me close to the damage of a brute? is that a correct assumption? Thanks guys I am really just trying to figure out the best route. To a new player the game mechanics can be very confusing as characters can have the same values but the ratio of a given power is different from class to class. Someone posted above saying if your team wipes you will lose the buffs and die with a brute. So am I supposed to believe that the tanker will just sit there and dodge and resist till the rest of the team gets back up. Keep in mind I am from wow and very new so that's two strikes against me starting out. So go gentle Oh and I really don't know the difference in the IO slotting cost or rarity.. So that's three strikes. |
Well, it is true that with enough time and money invested a brute's tanking ability can be near that of an actual tank's. However, no amount of investment (assuming equal investment on the part of the tank) will allow the brute to erase the tank's HP advantage, or change the fact that the tank will have 45% S/L resistance compared to the brute's 33%. And no investment of influence can give the brute the tank's inherent splashing taunt on melee attacks. So no matter what, the tank will have more HP, more resistance, and better taunting abilities - just as a tank isn't going to match a brute's damage (though it can try), the brute won't match the tank's resilience (though again, it can try).
And while at the very top end of IO builds the differences narrow, getting there is a prospect whose cost shouldn't be overlooked. A tank only needs about 10% extra defense to hit 50% (leaving a healthy 5% buffer against debuffs), while a brute needs 20%, and the cost of IO builds is most emphatically *not* linear. Getting 20% defense is going to be much more than twice as expensive as getting 10%, because you start having to slot more and more expensive sets when you run out of 'cheap' options.
For example, my shield/mace gets her extra 10% defense from four sources. The first is a steadfast 3% defense in true grit, which, while not peanuts, isn't *that* expensive (and can be gotten for only 75 merits, to boot). Next, she has the dirt cheap multistrike set in all 4 AoEs, for an extra (1.875% * 4) = 7.5% defense to melee and AoE attacks. In weave and battle agility I have full sets of red fortune, which were also reasonably cheap and give me 5% ranged defense. Finally, I have 3 pieces of reactive armor in deflection, tough, and one with the shield for (.625 * 3) = 1.875% more ranged defense, leaving me near 50% to all three positions.
This represents a total investment of perhaps 10 million influence, because I was able to fulfill my needs with the low-hanging fruit of reasonably cheap sets (and I was patient enough to avoid the 'buy-it-nao' tax). At this point, though, I've more or less exhausted the possibilities for defense bonuses that are both cheap and still give good enhancement values. If I wanted 20% defense instead, I'd have to either start slotting sets where some of the individual pieces can cost as much as my entire outlay so far, slot some powers with sets that would be more or less useless for their actual purpose, or both. If I wanted 20% defense, I'd guess that I'd spend more than 100 million if I also wanted to actually enhance my powers well.
Finally, keep in mind the particular sets you're using. Shields and super strength both rely heavily on damage buffs, which are in general more noticeable on a tank - they multiply a slightly larger base number, and they're not diluted by the effects of fury. Also, shield charge is better for tanks than for brutes. A shield/SS tank may still be inferior offensively to a SS/shield brute, but the tank is no slouch.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
Quote:
On top of that isn't the actual Taunt power more powerful on Tanks than it is on Brutes?|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Finally, a tank has better taunting ability than a brute. They both have taunts in their auras, but tanks get an AoE splash taunt in their ST attacks while brutes only taunt the target they hit.
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IIRC the Taunt on Tanks causes all that it affects have a range debuff on them while the Brute one only the initial target does. Or am I imagining that?
Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Quote:
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Another thing to consider, with a bit less number crunching, is that by the time a brute reaches the same kind of resistances the tank has, it is rather trivial anyway because you have enough buffs for the team you probably don't even need anyone to take the tanking role.
Quote:
Yeah, these were my thoughts with Shield and Superstrength. With Against All Odds saturated and Rage running you'll have a +145% Damage buff at all times on both Tank and Brute.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Finally, keep in mind the particular sets you're using. Shields and super strength both rely heavily on damage buffs, which are in general more noticeable on a tank - they multiply a slightly larger base number, and they're not diluted by the effects of fury. Also, shield charge is better for tanks than for brutes. A shield/SS tank may still be inferior offensively to a SS/shield brute, but the tank is no slouch.
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Say ther Brute's running +150% from Fury, then Punch will do
44.49 * 2.45 = 109 on a Tanker
41.71 * 3.95 = 164 on a Brute
The Brute wins on damage, but certainly not by double like on some set pairings.
I am not sure where to get the numbers at nor do I even know what they stand for.
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"Say the Brute's running +150% from Fury, then Punch will do
44.49 * 2.45 = 109 on a Tanker
41.71 * 3.95 = 164 on a Brute"
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So what would be an average hit on Knockout blow be between the two
80% rage x2
plus 25% from against all odds
if the base value is 158?
I have been taking a base value then 400% or 775% for max damage.
44+775%= 385 but since you start with 100% maybe I should only add 675=341. Since my numbers are still way off I am not doing something correctly. Aside from me being horrible at understanding the math behind the numbers you guys have pointed out some great things that I never took into account.
* Rage crash is not near as bad on a tanker due to ability to have higher buffer in defense.
* the amount of mobs that add -defense and can cause a defense is crash
* higher resist values when suffering a defense crash
* 5 mob ranged aoe taunt with -range
* higher higher hit points
* AOE taunt built into attacks
When I first posted I had decided that tankers were yesterdays news and started my Brute. After spending way to much time on the forums I have concluded that was the wrong choice for me. Now have my Tanker up to level 24.
My damage is pathetic right now but that is mainly due to the fact that I am working my my primaries first. As I love jumping into a group of mobs with my team still finishing up the last set.
A sincere thanks to all of you that spent your time to give details and to the rest of this forum community for detailed information that is listed.
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Likewise by that logic; one could say to a defender, by the time a corrupter reaches offering the same kind of support a defender has, it is rather trivial anyway because you can have enough self sufficient sets in the team that you don't even need anyone defending.
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Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Another thing to consider, with a bit less number crunching, is that by the time a brute reaches the same kind of resistances the tank has, it is rather trivial anyway because you have enough buffs for the team you probably don't even need anyone to take the tanking role.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Alright, if you want to compare Brute damage vs. Tank damage using the same damage-heavy sets (Shield/SS), KO Blow is as good an example as any. You said you want to look at maxed out performance, so I will assume ED-capped slotting (95% damage) in the attack itself, doublestacked Rage (160% damage boost), fully saturated Against All Odds (65% damage boost), and about as much Fury on the Brute as is reasonably sustainable (150% damage boost sound fair?). I will not assume damage buffs from red insps, allies, Assault, IO set bonuses, etc. for this comparison.|
So what would be an average hit on Knockout blow be between the two 80% rage x2 plus 25% from against all odds if the base value is 158? I have been taking a base value then 400% or 775% for max damage. 44+775%= 385 but since you start with 100% maybe I should only add 675=341. Since my numbers are still way off I am not doing something correctly. Aside from me being horrible at understanding the math behind the numbers you guys have pointed out some great things that I never took into account. |
For Brutes, KO Blow does a base damage of 148.5. Allowing that we are fighting at our maximum performance levels as previously specified, the Brute will do 100+95+160+65+150% of base, or 5.7 * 148.5, which is 846.5. That's gonna hurt!
The Tank doesn't have the boost from Fury, but still has all the other beefy damage boosts, and a modestly higher base damage value. KO Blow on Tanks does 158.4 base damage, but with buffs, would do 100+95+160+65% of that. However, Tanks have a damage cap of 400% base, which this exceeds by 20% - as such, the Tank would just do 158.4 * 4 = 633.6 damage.
Alternatively, let's say we're at a more modest, reasonable level of power for mid-level characters - only one layer of Rage, 5 targets in range of Against All Odds, and 120% boost from Fury. Running the same calculations, the Brute will do 642.1 damage and the tank will do 495.
Long story short, the Tank will do about 75% of the Brute's damage, which while certainly lower, is still hefty. These numbers are also ignoring the Tank's likely boost from the newly added Bruising effect - their tier 1 attack debuffs the target's resistance now, so these damage numbers will look much closer. SS/Shield tanks can self-cap their damage with doublestacked rage and 6-7 targets in range of Against All Odds (much more doable than the full 10 in range), and capped damage is painful damage even if it caps lower than Brutes or Scrappers. Shield/SS is one of the highest damage meleers in the game, and no matter the AT you put it on, it will hold its own.
With IOs, you can build to do just about anything - the question is really what you want your starting line to be. As a tank, you'll be nigh-indestructible - softcap with negligible effort, and capped S/L resists on top of that when needed (with Tough and One with the Shield up). You can therefore focus almost all of your IO bonuses on maxing out your HP, regen, recharge, and/or accuracy to taste. As a Brute, you have a significantly lower base defense level (and HP and resistance levels), so you have to concentrate a number of your IO bonuses on defenses instead of pure offense (if you want to softcap), and will never have the HP or Resistance of a true Tank without relying on outside buffs.
@the OP - Either Mace/Shield or Shield/Mace will follow similar rules as above, although without Rage in the equation, just Build Up. Mace can be very AoE-heavy, with Whirling Mace, Crowd Control, and Shatter all able to smack several targets at once. Do you find it more important to do max damage, or be confident that you can survive the target-rich environs?
Rule number six of an empathy defender is NEVER underestimate a blaster's ability to die. I don't care if he has CM, Fort, both RAs, bubbles (both FF and Sonic), and is fighting next to a Storm defender with hurricane on. If there is a way to die in that situation, the blaster will find it.
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Mine makes sense, a group with enough buffs to bring a brute to a tanker level doesn't require a tank.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Likewise by that logic; one could say to a defender, by the time a corrupter reaches offering the same kind of support a defender has, it is rather trivial anyway because you can have enough self sufficient sets in the team that you don't even need anyone defending.
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Yours I have no clue about. "When a corrupter reaches offering the same point of support a defender has?"
Thx again for all this insight, really helpfull ^^
I've decided to stick with leveling a tank instead of brute actually, for many reasons that i've discovered while playing one :
1/ People love you.
Granted, most groups (if not all of them) don't need a tank. That's what's nice about CoX, you don't need a specific AT to do missions. But people in PUGs were quite happy to see me join because a tanker makes it so much easier. It might change as I lvl up (currently 22), but for now, it's really nice to feel apreciated ^^
2/ You have a specific role in a group.
I like versatility as much as the next player, but a tank becomes naturally the cornerstone of the group. Most of the time, when I join, people change the way they play : they stay behind me while I take point, they wait for me to gather everyone and then go nuts on AoE's and whatnot'. I really like the feeling of being truly helpfull to the group.
3/ You feel like a rare species
Everytime I log on, I check for groups and I only see 3, maybe 4 tanks only. Which means the chances you'll have 2 tanks in the same group are almost none. I like being the only AT in a group
On the SD/Mace topic, the more I played it, the less I liked it... It's nice and all, but it feels slow, it's endurance heavy, and redrawing my mace everytime I use Shield Charge or Active Defense is just annoying.
So I decided to go with one of the popular combos : SD/SS (plus I had a character concept I liked better). And I must say, I love it. It feels completly different : it's fast, dynamic, quite effective, and way easier on my blue bar.
I'm leveling quite fast with her, although I have no idea what build i'm gonna use when I hit 50. I've seen many people slotting wide ranges of IO sets in their builds, I'll have to look at some seriously...
Quick question on the "cost of builds" topic : how much does it roughly costs to have a nice build, full with IO sets, but let's say, no purple ones ?
How much with purples ?
Because from what i've read, it can start at a few 100 millions to more than 3 billions...
Do you guys have nice well-rounded builds I can look at ?
Anyway, thanx for your answers.
Ok, I've been looking around to create a build and here is what I could come up with :
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Pasteque IO: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(5), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(9), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(48)
Level 1: Jab -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(9), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Zinger-Dam%(45)
Level 2: True Grit -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(3), Numna-Heal(3), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(13), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(13), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(34)
Level 4: Battle Agility -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(5), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(11), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 6: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(7), RechRdx-I(7)
Level 8: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Haymaker -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(11), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Zinger-Dam%(46)
Level 12: Phalanx Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 14: Hover -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def(42)
Level 16: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(19), Numna-Heal/Rchg(19), RgnTis-Regen+(48), Mrcl-Rcvry+(50), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(50)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(33), P'Shift-End%(34), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(43)
Level 22: Knockout Blow -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(23), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Mako-Dam%(27)
Level 24: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(27), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(34), Mocking-Rchg(45)
Level 26: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 28: Rage -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(29), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(29), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(31), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(31), GSFC-Build%(31)
Level 30: Tough -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(43), TtmC'tng-ResDam(43)
Level 32: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(33)
Level 35: Shield Charge -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(36), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(36), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(36), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(39), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(39), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(39), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Fly -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(42), Zephyr-ResKB(42)
Level 44: Grant Cover -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(48), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: One with the Shield -- Heal-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- QckFt-EndRdx/RunSpd(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 0: Ninja Run
Code:
Now, the only thing that really bugs me, is the 46-ish % in defense. I'd like to reach a bit more (say 50%). | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1416;764;1528;HEX;| |78DA9D534B53134110EEDD242C79918404814020819090C76E88E5C147951EE4611| |0341AF4A442802159884BC86EAAE4E60FF0E4F3E4CDE74FB0FC27EA7F89DD3D0B25| |57B76ABF6FA6A7BF9EEE9E99CD17CB218097B74009DDEE346D7B7BAB691D899E76A| |FE9F47BCD4EB0DEB41D71D217E9DA7D0D005272797B591C08CB1646A36D8ACEFED9| |74CA5DDD141D816BFD2E8E1B4E4F582DA71DAB596D8143C7381B04EBC7C71D63B56| |3B6DA4E488E4DC712B61D76276837AD5680678DAE10FBF195AEB967AC58A2D73ADD| |DEA4CC7AA713985501FFE53082823F0C7C90C04109BC5185D6866348068CC4918AA| |097D1A50C1549E500B81FAA7680FC8677917488EE01B9E7F791725016488B50B655| |800558C5BD14772FE5814281D406EFA53E42CA43681C290EA13CD20464B248D3B08| |22A8F54793C0956718645085CC8700DFD7C3227D557E234872ED01D74D078FF0168| |1936195887DFADC3BFC3A6C0853AB2B20E5DD6A1531D06D43050506604C11956F9F| |194C33290128E721B0B946B157CB812719D233A90494353CCED434C563E4AEDD061| |B4C1D2CA4DA429A8AEF35A750D69168651157755F1D72AB927DEA8E49E78CFB3F45| |B95A2673E20A5A0F88E6755AC70CCAD70EC0028DEA596A4365F810953D22157983C| |E2590555E352E51937397AF29029D3E1B0E5E74C0AE63429FD60328934079703943| |A77D937F589BDA63F4BFAC234F355D23749DF993C1828258B5353453EE4A2CE2D29| |1ADC462F3ACCBA0EB3F29EA6A37CFCE9181FFFDD30ED2E0B9DEB22A561FE848B99E| |FF189CEDB409730EB202521DB47CAC09500D9A46A815425C89DB07BAEC75DCAD91C| |234FAA2CE4FB6C0C6AD42B99CCE22F2EA0F05BD21FA6754CA6E41E7A495EB5398D9| |2951AA3C4F7A022A92A6903354B6E2F97B26C9AF69E3F33CA998E75E35FD3904A35| |D7BDEE0B469352E2432878CF5FF5C01F655F1EFFE7F72374B6A9FF21BDFC2D823AC| |1638227044F099E1134097609F608063FCFD591AB94D73582EB043708C6303F7845| |9E5A102148102208138C104408A204718224C14782C15F5DB0E5C0| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
If that's not necessary, then maybe increase damage or use better sets ?
Any advice on how to achieve a more efficient build is welcome of course ^^
And just for my personnal knowledge, how much will it cost ?
Thx again,
Ryltaar
Oblits work better for you in Shield Charge and I'd put a full set of Mako's in Haymaker.That would give you totals of 48.5%/50.4%/48.5% Melee/Ranged/AoE.
If you want to spend the cash, change out all the LotG Defense/Recharges for the LotG 7.5% recharge IO. You won't lose any defense, but you'll gain global recharge. I'd do the same on the Def/End you've got in Combat Jumping as CJ really doesn't need an end redux. If you do that you could slot Touch of the Nictus in Jab and push your melee defense to 52.3% since you've made up for the recharge bonus you'd lose when you switch out the Crushing Impact IO's.
You'll probably have endurance issues as it stands, but try and get the +end accolades to help with that. (Portal Jockey and The Atlas Medallion)
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Hi everyone,
I need somme advice about Shield Defense + War Mace Brutes and Tanks.
I started a SD/WM tank, lvl40 so far, and I like it (playstyle, survavibility etc...). But I was wondering something...
My main goal is to be the main tank in TF's and such. So I chosse tank. But when I see the numbers on both archetypes, I'm a bit confused :
- they have the same resistance cap
- same defence cap
- 300 max HP difference
- Same aggro cap (17 mobs)
Therefor, as Shield is a defense type powerset, you can basicaly achieve the same def/res caps as a brute and as a tank right ? But Brute have rage (that's really nice).
So I'm seriously considering rolling a WM/SD Brute, so my question is :
for these specific powersets, and the fact that I want to be main tank, should I play a Tank or a Brute ?
I have no "end-game" experience, so I'm asking those who have. If the tank efficiency in TF's is really better than a brute, i'll keep my tank. If not, the extra damage is always welcome.
Thanks for your help,
Ryltaar