The Single Most Damaging Attack
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-09-07 13:46 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Some people hate to acknowledge it (NRg and fire blasters mostly), but Blizzard is the most damaging single power. It doesn't rely on criticals or +build up, or chance for anything. As long as the target is receiving all the ticks, its Blizzard. I have an Ice/Kin defender that makes a lot of fire and energy blasters angry cuz I out damage them with my tier 9. Plus, Fulcrum shift\ice storm\blizzard\pop a blue\transference and I am back to full end and no downtime. Not to mention siphon speed brings blizzard up all that more often.
If you wanna make people go "who just killed that whole group so fast?" only to find that you, a meager Kin/Ice defender raises ur hand, you should give it a try sometime.
Quote:
I believe Blaster Inferno will beat non-scourging versions of Blizzard. I think the numbers were discussed up-thread.
|
Originally Posted by Strike_Hawk
Some people hate to acknowledge it (NRg and fire blasters mostly), but Blizzard is the most damaging single power. It doesn't rely on criticals or +build up, or chance for anything. As long as the target is receiving all the ticks, its Blizzard. I have an Ice/Kin defender that makes a lot of fire and energy blasters angry cuz I out damage them with my tier 9. Plus, Fulcrum shift\ice storm\blizzard\pop a blue\transference and I am back to full end and no downtime. Not to mention siphon speed brings blizzard up all that more often.
If you wanna make people go "who just killed that whole group so fast?" only to find that you, a meager Kin/Ice defender raises ur hand, you should give it a try sometime. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Double rage, fully saturated fury, seizmic smash!
What's that you say? rage and seizmic are from two different sets? Come'ere and say that! *SMASH*
Quote:
Knockout Blow, on the other hand, is in the same set as Rage, and does the same damage as Seismic Smash. Under the very specific and difficult circumstances you describe, it does about 2/3rds as much as the easily reproduced Build Up + Aim + Inferno. Try again.
|
Originally Posted by Soozi
Double rage, fully saturated fury, seizmic smash!
What's that you say? rage and seizmic are from two different sets? Come'ere and say that! *SMASH* |
Jerk 4 Life
In brightest day, in blackest night/No evil shall escape my sight/Let those who worship evil's might/Beware my power ... Green Lantern's light!/(Meowth, that's right!)
My Arcs: #4827: Earth For Humans. #6391: Young Love.
Quote:
Sure.|
Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
Knockout Blow, on the other hand, is in the same set as Rage, and does the same damage as Seismic Smash. Under the very specific and difficult circumstances you describe, it does about 2/3rds as much as the easily reproduced Build Up + Aim + Inferno. Try again.
|
Step right up.
*SMASH!*
I'd ask you how that felt, but you seem to be under the effects of a mag 4 hold.
*Plucks the aim and buildup from your scrawny self, and pastes it to my fists*
*SMASH*
Quote:
Double Rage and saturated Fury is difficult to achieve...?
|
Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
Under the very specific and difficult circumstances you describe
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
If you think that's awesome, you should try it on a corr. |
Originally Posted by Strike_Hawk
If you wanna make people go "who just killed that whole group so fast?" only to find that you, a meager Kin/Ice defender raises ur hand, you should give it a try sometime.
|
Quote:
The base numbers have blizzard higher than Inferno. So no matter what buffs you have, blizzard will be higher. If you use aim+BU on inferno, you can use aim+BU on blizzard. Basically it always breaks down to Blizzard>Inferno.
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I believe Blaster Inferno will beat non-scourging versions of Blizzard. I think the numbers were discussed up-thread.
|
Quote:
The thing is corrs, blasters and even doms are expected to put up huge damage numbers, when a defender is the highest damaging team member, it comes as a surprise to most. And even still, the numbers show a damage capped blizzard to be IT. The OP's question was when it comes to single most damaging power, regardless of what AT you are on, what is it? It's Blizzard.
|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
If you think that's awesome, you should try it on a corr.
|
Quote:
I do believe the real issue is if can Blizzard pull off all of it's ticks. If it can't, then other things win out.
|
Originally Posted by Strike_Hawk
The base numbers have blizzard higher than Inferno. So no matter what buffs you have, blizzard will be higher. If you use aim+BU on inferno, you can use aim+BU on blizzard. Basically it always breaks down to Blizzard>Inferno.
|
With the cases given here Blizzard has to pull off all it's ticks to beat Inferno that pulls off all it's ticks and dots.
Keeping that in mind Stalker Assassination is the most consistent high damage attack you can get that's available to players.
Quote:
One would have to assume 100% accuracy to make accurate comparisons. So yes, assuming all ticks hit, blizzard. The OP's question is MUCH simpler than everyone is making it. What is the single most damaging attack? Look at the numbers and compare BASE DAMAGE. It's still Blizzard.
|
Originally Posted by DMystic
With the cases given here Blizzard has to pull off all it's ticks to beat Inferno that pulls off all it's ticks and dots.
Keeping that in mind Stalker Assassination is the most consistent high damage attack you can get that's available to players. |
Quote:
I hate to ... no, actually I love doing this. In my opinion, if you're going to be absolutely certain, its important to also be correct.|
Originally Posted by Strike_Hawk
One would have to assume 100% accuracy to make accurate comparisons. So yes, assuming all ticks hit, blizzard. The OP's question is MUCH simpler than everyone is making it. What is the single most damaging attack? Look at the numbers and compare BASE DAMAGE. It's still Blizzard.
|
So lets get to it. Blizzard deals 75 ticks of 0.06 scale damage lethal and 0.06 scale damage cold over its 15 second lifetime. This is 75 pulses of attacks, not a 75 tick DoT (more on that later). Total damage is scale 9 damage. Its a pseudo-pet so it deals damage on the pet damage scale. That means at level fifty it deals 55.6102 * 9 = 500.49 points of damage.
Inferno deals Scale 1.0 smashing, plus Scale 2.0 fire, plus 75% chance for Scale 1.5 fire, plus another 50% chance for another Scale 1.5 fire. If all waves hit, Scale 6 damage (basically the same as Nova). *And* it also deals nine ticks of Scale 0.3 fire damage over eight seconds with 99% chance for each tick (and its coded cancel on miss). If *everything* hits, that's a total of Scale 8.7 damage (6 + 9*0.3).
But for Blasters that's on the blaster ranged scale which is higher than the pet scale. At level 50, that would be 62.5615 * 8.7 = 544.29 damage. Oops, looks like Inferno beats Blizzard and it deals that damage almost twice as fast to boot.
Of course, that's maximum damage. Neither power will hit all of its ticks all the time. The *average* damage depends on your accuracy. Important to note that the Blizzard pseudo pet damage power has standard accuracy (1.0) while Inferno has tier9-style accuracy (1.4 - just like Nova). But lets assume both powers are stuck at the tohit ceiling of 95% vs its targets. In that case the average damage of Blizzard is fairly easy to calculate: its just 95% of the total, or 0.95 * 500.49 = 475.47.
Inferno is a bit more complex because its waves have less than 100% chance to trigger, separate from the power actually hitting the target. The average of the base damage is 1.0 + 2.0 + 0.75 * 1.5 + 0.5 * 1.5 = 4.875 scale damage, or 304.99 damage at level 50. The DoT is slightly more complex because its a cancel on miss: if any tick fails all the other ticks fail also. That means the average number of ticks is 8.56, and the average damage from DoT is 8.56 * 0.3 * 62.5615 = 160.66. Total average damage: 465.65. With the 95% tohit ceiling that gets reduced to 442.37. So actually Blizzard does more on average.
But not so fast. Blizzard is a pseudopet, and thus has a 400% damage strength cap. Inferno is a direct attack, and thus has a 500% damage strength cap (by virtue of the Blaster having one). At the damage cap, Blizzard does 1901.88 damage on average, while Inferno does 2211.85 on average. Inferno deals more.
So, actually, you're wrong. Blaster Inferno's maximum base damage is higher than Blizzard's. And Blaster Inferno at the damage cap deals more damage than Blizzard at the damage cap for either the maximal case or the average case. Only if you compare Blizzard's average unbuffed base damage to Blaster Inferno's average unbuffed base damage does Blizzard outdamage Inferno. By 33.1 points of damage at level 50. Interesting final question: at what level of damage buff does Inferno overtake Blizzard on average damage? At 430% damage buff. What's the damage buff of a blaster slotted to the ED soft cap and with BU and Aim stacked onto Inferno? 357.5%. So at the point where the team has about 72.5% ally damage buffs floating around, Blaster Inferno will be able to exceed the damage Blizzard puts out assuming the targets remain under its area of effect for the full 15 seconds. Less if we assume Defiance is running some level of buff on the Blaster at that moment.
Not so simple, is it?
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I'm going to say corruptor blizzard against an GM with about 15k or less hp.
It would be nice to use even lower hp on the GM, but you risk it dying before the power has dealt all of its damage if you are at damage cap and it is at the res floor and by some miracle you manage to scourge the whole time when it is at 21% health and less.
Ok not likely, but pulling of a ~10k blizzard is entirely possible against severely hurt GM if you are dam capped and it is at the -res floor.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I hate to ... no, actually I love doing this. In my opinion, if you're going to be absolutely certain, its important to also be correct.
So lets get to it. Blizzard deals 75 ticks of 0.06 scale damage lethal and 0.06 scale damage cold over its 15 second lifetime. This is 75 pulses of attacks, not a 75 tick DoT (more on that later). Total damage is scale 9 damage. Its a pseudo-pet so it deals damage on the pet damage scale. That means at level fifty it deals 55.6102 * 9 = 500.49 points of damage. Inferno deals Scale 1.0 smashing, plus Scale 2.0 fire, plus 75% chance for Scale 1.5 fire, plus another 50% chance for another Scale 1.5 fire. If all waves hit, Scale 6 damage (basically the same as Nova). *And* it also deals nine ticks of Scale 0.3 fire damage over eight seconds with 99% chance for each tick (and its coded cancel on miss). If *everything* hits, that's a total of Scale 8.7 damage (6 + 9*0.3). But for Blasters that's on the blaster ranged scale which is higher than the pet scale. At level 50, that would be 62.5615 * 8.7 = 544.29 damage. Oops, looks like Inferno beats Blizzard and it deals that damage almost twice as fast to boot. Of course, that's maximum damage. Neither power will hit all of its ticks all the time. The *average* damage depends on your accuracy. Important to note that the Blizzard pseudo pet damage power has standard accuracy (1.0) while Inferno has tier9-style accuracy (1.4 - just like Nova). But lets assume both powers are stuck at the tohit ceiling of 95% vs its targets. In that case the average damage of Blizzard is fairly easy to calculate: its just 95% of the total, or 0.95 * 500.49 = 475.47. Inferno is a bit more complex because its waves have less than 100% chance to trigger, separate from the power actually hitting the target. The average of the base damage is 1.0 + 2.0 + 0.75 * 1.5 + 0.5 * 1.5 = 4.875 scale damage, or 304.99 damage at level 50. The DoT is slightly more complex because its a cancel on miss: if any tick fails all the other ticks fail also. That means the average number of ticks is 8.56, and the average damage from DoT is 8.56 * 0.3 * 62.5615 = 160.66. Total average damage: 465.65. With the 95% tohit ceiling that gets reduced to 442.37. So actually Blizzard does more on average. But not so fast. Blizzard is a pseudopet, and thus has a 400% damage strength cap. Inferno is a direct attack, and thus has a 500% damage strength cap (by virtue of the Blaster having one). At the damage cap, Blizzard does 1901.88 damage on average, while Inferno does 2211.85 on average. Inferno deals more. So, actually, you're wrong. Blaster Inferno's maximum base damage is higher than Blizzard's. And Blaster Inferno at the damage cap deals more damage than Blizzard at the damage cap for either the maximal case or the average case. Only if you compare Blizzard's average unbuffed base damage to Blaster Inferno's average unbuffed base damage does Blizzard outdamage Inferno. By 33.1 points of damage at level 50. Interesting final question: at what level of damage buff does Inferno overtake Blizzard on average damage? At 430% damage buff. What's the damage buff of a blaster slotted to the ED soft cap and with BU and Aim stacked onto Inferno? 357.5%. So at the point where the team has about 72.5% ally damage buffs floating around, Blaster Inferno will be able to exceed the damage Blizzard puts out assuming the targets remain under its area of effect for the full 15 seconds. Less if we assume Defiance is running some level of buff on the Blaster at that moment. Not so simple, is it? |
If this truly is the case, Mid's needs to make some edits. If you use Mids, which MOST people to do make their builds, it shows blizzard...every time. All the time.
But what if we stick the maximum number of damage procs possible in those powers while at the damage cap and resistance floor? Assuming it all goes off, now what wins?
Thats because mid's averages the chances out, equally, and doesn't factor in the .95 at the end.
Quote:
Actually, *not* all the time. I like Mids - its the only planner I've ever recommended, way, way back when it was first written, and that was at a time when I rejected the idea of planners - but it does have just one flaw in this circumstance. Actually, one flaw and one small approximation. But hold that thought.|
Originally Posted by Strike_Hawk
If this truly is the case, Mid's needs to make some edits. If you use Mids, which MOST people to do make their builds, it shows blizzard...every time. All the time.
|
First of all, Mids agrees with my calculations. It shows Blizzard with base damage 500.5 (which agrees with my 500.49) and Inferno with 472.2 (which doesn't quite agree with my 465.65 because Mids doesn't make CancelOnMiss calculations - that small approximation I mentioned - when I rerun with the same approximation I get 472.21 which agrees with Mids). But that is under the average calculation mode. You said:
Quote:
| So yes, assuming all ticks hit, blizzard. |
When you do, Blizzard stays the same (because its calculation already presumes every tick triggers) but Inferno goes up to 544.3, which *also* agrees with my calculation of 544.29.
So if all ticks hit, the maximum possible base damage for Blaster Inferno is higher than the maximum possible base damage for Blizzard, both by my calculations and for Mids if you are using Mids in the correct mode to see maximum damage. The default is average damage not maximum because that's usually what people want to know: on average, if you use this power a lot, what would you expect its damage to end up being. It most closely tracks with the value of an attack like a tier 9 (DPA also becomes important to the value of an attack for an attack intended to be part of an attack chain).
Switching back to average mode, Inferno can still outpace Blizzard when buffed, but only if you recognize that Mids has one tiny error (at least in the version I'm using): it doesn't honor damage strength caps consistently correctly. Blizzard can be buffed to 500% damage in Mids, but actually has a 400% cap. If you know that and cap the buff accordingly yourself, Inferno at the (500%) damage cap outdamages Blizzard at the damage cap in Mids, in exactly the way I described.
So yeah, Mids basically agrees with me (except for the damage cap thing). It would be weird if it didn't really, since the fundamental basis for its calculations is basically the same as my own.
Incidentally, separate from everything else, Blizzard is a grey area power for another reason. We call it "an attack" for mostly historical context reasons. Its a tier 9, like other tier 9 blaster attacks, so its an attack. But its not really an attack: its a summons that generates a pet that fires 75 attacks against all targets in range. Because its lifetime is so long relatively speaking (15 seconds) its not like normal attacks or even normal tier 9s which usually take no more than about 4 seconds to deliver their damage (Inferno takes about 9 to complete its DoT). Technically speaking, if Blizzard is an attack, then Voltaic Sentinel is an attack.
In any case, as I originally stated:
Only if you compare Blizzard's average unbuffed base damage to Blaster Inferno's average unbuffed base damage does Blizzard outdamage Inferno.
But the question is somewhat more complex than that.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Now I am seeing the difference lies between our scenarios and not our math.
My answer was that a kinetic/ice defender's Blizzard does more damage than any other AT's single attack. This is because the defender has the benefit of fulcrum shift. So by himself the defender can boost his (or her) own damage and when they fire off blizzard, it will do more damage than any blaster can by themselves. Your math seems to be very rock solid, however I do not know of a way that a blaster can boost their own damage to fulcrum shift +damage numbers. Is there such a way, aside from chewing on a ton of red insps to get to the cap?
Your math does propose an interesting scenario in looking into the difference between a kin/ice defender, a fire/kin corruptor, and a ice/kin corruptor. I wonder which would have the highest damage power?
I must be missing something in Mid's because the numbers I am seeing still don't equate to inferno being above Blizzard in any situation.
So the results look like this:
-With no buffs blizzard's base damage outdamages inferno.
-With buffs and any other damage modifiers done "by the player to the player" (aka solo) not counting insps, an ICE/KIN DEFENDERS blizzard outdamages a fire blasters inferno, but a FIRE BLASTERS inferno outdamages an ICE BLASTERS blizzard.
-On teams where a fire blaster receives the same buffs as any other teammates, a fire blaster inferno beats both a ice/kin defender blizzard, and ice blaster blizzard.
Would you say the above statements are accurate?
Quote:
Well, lets start here. Suppose I slot 3 level 50 damage IOs into Inferno. That would be 42.4 * 3 = +127.2% damage buff before ED, and +99.08% under ED. There are invention sets that can go higher than that: if you slot everything but the proc in Armageddon you end up with +101.86% damage after ED. Lets call it +99% for now.|
Originally Posted by Strike_Hawk
Now I am seeing the difference lies between our scenarios and not our math.
My answer was that a kinetic/ice defender's Blizzard does more damage than any other AT's single attack. This is because the defender has the benefit of fulcrum shift. So by himself the defender can boost his (or her) own damage and when they fire off blizzard, it will do more damage than any blaster can by themselves. Your math seems to be very rock solid, however I do not know of a way that a blaster can boost their own damage to fulcrum shift +damage numbers. Is there such a way, aside from chewing on a ton of red insps to get to the cap? Your math does propose an interesting scenario in looking into the difference between a kin/ice defender, a fire/kin corruptor, and a ice/kin corruptor. I wonder which would have the highest damage power? I must be missing something in Mid's because the numbers I am seeing still don't equate to inferno being above Blizzard in any situation. So the results look like this: -With no buffs blizzard's base damage outdamages inferno. -With buffs and any other damage modifiers done "by the player to the player" (aka solo) not counting insps, an ICE/KIN DEFENDERS blizzard outdamages a fire blasters inferno, but a FIRE BLASTERS inferno outdamages an ICE BLASTERS blizzard. -On teams where a fire blaster receives the same buffs as any other teammates, a fire blaster inferno beats both a ice/kin defender blizzard, and ice blaster blizzard. Would you say the above statements are accurate? |
Typically Blasters can use both BU and Aim (if they have BU) which is +100% and +62.5% respectively. The total damage strength is now 361.5%.
Invention set bonuses can easily get you +15% to +25% damage buff, sometimes more, but lets just say +15% for now. That takes us to 376.5%.
We then have defiance. The best defiance buff you can build up is somewhere around +50%. To be conservative I'm going to say that the blaster only accumulates +30% defiance buff before using Inferno, which takes us to 406.5%.
At that point, Inferno will average, using my average base calculation, 1892.87 points of damage, compared to Blizzard at the damage cap of 2001.96 points of damage. To beat Blizzard the Blaster would have to find about +24% damage buff, either in more slotting, more damage bonuses, more defiance, or some ally buff in the team. Its not a lot and my calculations were on the conservative side. Could I specifically *build* a blaster optimized for damage strength that could close that gap solo? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could. With purple sets, absolutely (due to the +4% damage set bonuses in those). On the other hand, short of resistance debuffs there's nothing you can do as a defender to increase Blizzard above 2001.96 because that's the damage cap. Heck with fitness becoming free Blasters are probably going to be in a better position to take Assault, which adds +10.5% damage to the blaster, cutting the gap in half.
So it kinda depends on what you consider reasonable self buffing for the Blaster. With enough slots and inventions dedicated to damage buffing, its still possible for a Blaster to spike an Inferno that beats a non-scourging Blizzard. With no effort at all a Blaster can get pretty close to what a Defender can do only by damage-capping themselves with Fulcrum shift. It depends on how hard you want to work at it as the Blaster.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Heh. And you could drop that Inferno on a single foe, whereas you wouldn't get as much of a buff out of Fulcrum Shift on only one foe. Kind of silly to do that to one foe, but there you go. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Could I specifically *build* a blaster optimized for damage strength that could close that gap solo? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could.
|
Quote:
And an Ice/Kin Corruptor's Blizzard does the same base damage while sitting at the same damage cap, plus it can Scourge, so it will almost assuredly do more damage.|
Originally Posted by Strike_Hawk
My answer was that a kinetic/ice defender's Blizzard does more damage than any other AT's single attack.This is because the defender has the benefit of fulcrum shift.
|
So the statement is just plain false regardless of what Blasters can do to beat it - and it was shown earlier in the thread that they can (with Arcanaville showing a situation a few posts up that gets you really close).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
You can self-cap damage on a single enemy with a Defender (+300%), you just have to stack it (+150%), slot Blizzard for damage (+100%), and stack Siphon Power (+50%).|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Heh. And you could drop that Inferno on a single foe, whereas you wouldn't get as much of a buff out of Fulcrum Shift on only one foe. Kind of silly to do that to one foe, but there you go.
|
A Corruptor needs 2 enemies to reliably self-cap for the duration of Blizzard (each Fulcrum is +80% at that point), but can self-cap with one enemy for a click-and-go power by using Aim.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Alot of the talk about corruptors has gotten me interested in playing an ice/kin corr. I don't know why but for some reason I always default to blue side. (perhaps because I have minimal experience compared to blue)
So it seems that the power IS still blizzard, yet it is on a corr, not a def or blaster? Logically it makes sense. Hmm, and I have just been thinking about which chars to roll redside. This may be a fun option.
Depending on which primary you're using, a double critical on Assassin's Strike shows up as either 3 or 4 ticks of damage: one or two ticks for the base damage which total up to scale 2.5, the "from hidden" tick at scale 4.5, and the double critical tick which is scale 2.5.